PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

I've only explained that like a million times. Palpatine is selling himself as a gateway to the dark side. His suggestion that they have to work together to achieve the power is entirely consistent with everything he said previously. If they have to work together, that is the same as saying that Anakin cannot do it alone, which is the same as saying that Palpatine has the power to make it happen by lending his assistance. There is nothing dumb about it.

 

I made a topic sort of like this one,but with my own ideas added.It was about Anakin's quest for power.The rest of the forum members added a lot of excellent feedbacks and explanations as well.

Here is the old link to it if some haven't read it before.

http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/31293817/p1

 

Yes, there is: the idea that he has to kill 'x' amount of people* in order to gain the dark side power that would supposedly save Padme.

*and not just 'enemies', mind you, but also comrades

 

First, "he looks pretty dumb there" refers to before that point, having followed a paragraph which said nothing about that at all, in a thread which is concerned with the quickness of the turn. In case you forgot, Anakin had already pledged himself to the order of the Sith by that point. Also, the idea that killing one's comrades would be an act attuned to the dark side is not dumb at all. In fact, wholesale rejection of this concept is itself dumb.

 

What's dumb is that Anakin would take this evil guy's word for it, you know, the same guy he just found out had orchestrated a phony war, playing both sides.

*and by implication ("playing both sides") was indirectly responsible for the attempts to kill Padme in the previous two films.

 

I'm with TOSCHI on this one. In my view, it's dumb to say that Anakin isn't being dumb. He is. Big time. That's part and parcel of the story. And I accept that some people have a hard time buying it. Nowt wrong with that. We all respond differently to art, based on our own life experiences and personal biases. If Anakin had had Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, he might not have fallen so easily for the charms of a snake oil salesman. But he didn't, so there ya go.

 

Well, Anakin has never been shown to a very rational dude. Heck, even Vader seems to sometimes value action over reason. I mean, he seriously expects Luke to join him after he beat him up and took his hand off? That said, what other choice Anakin has after he helped Sidious kill the senior Council member? The Jedi aren't going to forgive him, while Sidous is still there promising him loads of power. He can't run away like Padme would suggest because it's just no in his nature, he has trouble letting go, and he's the opposite of the boy who knew "nothing of greed".

 

Anakin's turn is rushed because he's not really "turned" to the dark side the way people like myself expected it. He never really embraces the dark side and the Sith way.

Although he has fear and insecurity in him, can be brash and gave in to anger and rampage in AOTC (Sandpeople killing), he reluctantly joins Palpatine and the dark side, only to find a mean to save his wife from death. It's only fear of loosing Padme that makes him join the Sith. It's not a progressive way from AOTC, where he for example slowly gets away from the Jedi and the Republic, for personal (dark side powers to become more powerful) and political reasons (weakness or inefficiency of the Republic for instance).

And then, Boom !, some time after, he suddenly seems to get engulfed by the dark side : killing of the younglings, "You and I can rule the galaxy together...", Sith's yellow eyes, vicious slaughtering of the separatists, change in voice tone...And all this because the Emperor, he once trusted and admired, but turned out to be an evil Sith Lord who contemplated the whole war, the fall of the Republic and the Jedi extermination, promised him the ultimate power to cheath death...

Actually, it felt completely rushed to some people because it's really hard to believe. It's a faustian arc that baffled many, rather out of tone with the original trilogy.

 

Really? Let's take a look at the throne room scenes. For some reason, everyone involved seems to be convinced that if Luke gives in to his anger and hatred and kills Vader, he'll succumb to the Dark Side. One action seems to be enough. And the audience buys it too, even though Luke is a generally nice guy who's never done anything even remotely evil. By comparison, Anakin has been getting closer and closer to the abyss for the better part of the two movies. In universe, he's been struggling with his demons so the "turn" is maybe not even a turn, but his final giving in to his darker nature.

 

One, there were people who didn't find that aspect from ROTJ believable either. Two, assuming one does, if we follow the reasoning of ROTJ, then Anakin should have 'turned' once he killed Dooku at the beginning of ROTS. Similar scenario and all.

 

Good call, but even before getting the marching orders to go cleanse the Temple of his former friends... Anakin's pledge to become Sidious's apprentice was based upon the condition that Sidious help him save Padme's life... then, one second later he was told that he needed to work together with Sidious to discover THAT very secret.

And this comes on the heels of Anakin telling Palpatine 12 minutes earlier that: "The Sith only think inwards, of themselves..." So yeah, a whole LOT was wrong that... Palpatine can sell the 'gateway to power' all he wants, but Anakin had already stated that he knew better. Million explanations or not, to me, that boy doesn't look very smart there.

Perhaps the blinded by love angle might work for others to sweep this under the rug, but I just see the stupidity of the man on bended knee....

THIS.

PS. I'm the one who said Anakin looks dumb.

 

Palps didn't offer him the dark side at that point. Killing Mace is when the cards were on the table.

As for Luke, I never felt that he was really tempted by the dark side, he is too good for that. That's why I'd like to think that Anakin's slide was more gradual, starting with the Tusken slaughter and culminating in the Palpatine's office. Emotional stress and fear for Padme was the last straw.

 

I know what you are saying, but personally I think this is the moment Anakin is the new apprentice in Sidious' mind. Much like he overconfidently states about Luke in 'Jedi'; "my young apprentice..."
Also, on the subject of ROTJ's believability, it makes sense that the Emperor would be this cocky when we see how the events of 'Revenge' unfolded.

I agree with this. While Anakin could have gone either way, the darkside does look like the easiest way to rid the burden that has been heavily playing on him for an (argumentally) long time.

Like others have said, killing Mace was passing the point of no-return.
The only way to save Padme is about to be destroyed, Mace "forces" Anakin's hand, and Sidious gleefully takes it to the logical conclusion, sealing he and Anakin's fate, at least in Anakin's eyes. It's debatable whether Anakin expected Sidious to react this way, IMO shown by Anakin turning off his saber and looking surprised as Mace is fried. The following "What have I done?!?" bluntly states it really. I don't see this as an inconsistency in his character arc; while he didn't kill Mace personally, he knew he was going too far choosing Sidious (and Padme) over Mace (and the Jedi). The following pledge is an act of desperation, the easiest way out, something to create a false sense of security, and something he might as well give into now. That's how I read it, anyway.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. You can REALLY hear it when he tells the droid general that Dooku's death was on the to-do list.

 

Yeah. Dooku's death is a good moment, he looks about as clueless about Palpatine's true plan as the Jedi were.
I like the Seperatists general naivety about Palpatine's real identity. Grievous's "But the loss of Count Dooku" and Nute Gunray's absurdly ironic "Chancellor Palpatine managed to escape your grip. Without Count Dooku, I have doubts about your ability to keep us safe!"

 

The killing of the apprentice won't automatically make them turn. Otherwise, Obi-Wan would have been like Dooku. The thing about it is that the guilt eats the Jedi up and will make them much more vulnerable to Palpatine's deceit. Yes, the duel between Anakin and Dooku was a test and Anakin passed it (in Sidious' mind). However, that was not the turning moment. Had he spared Dooku, he would have acted much differently due to his guilt.

As for Luke, I feel that he WAS as vulnerable to the dark side as his father was. However, Anakin knew Palpatine as a friend since he first met him. Luke considered him evil for basically his entire life. Of course Anakin's going to be the one to turn and not Luke!!

 

This is probably true. It is only enhanced by the fact that Anakin received a years-long, very subversive approach from Palpatine... whereas Luke received a hour or so sales pitch that was full of reminders about where his anger would take him, complete with taunting and laughter. Palpatine really got lazy and overconfident the second time he attempted to turn a Skywalker to the dark side.

 

There are several things wrong with the above. First, the Jedi do have more ability to detect deception than the average Muggle, at least according to the EU and implications from the screenplays. That's part of why Palpatine manipulates Anakin with a potentially misleading presentation of factually true statements, rather than resorting to simple lies as he does with the Force-blind Senate. Also, on a related note, Palpatine is no snake oil salesman. The dark side really works.

I again refer you to my last post. Your own wording demonstrates that there has been no essential change in Sidious' story. We go from "the condition that Sidious help him save Padme's life" to "told that he needed to work together with Sidious to discover THAT very secret". Both of these describe the same situation: Sidious and Anakin working together to achieve the goal. Sidious never indicated that he would be the one saving Padme, which would be the logical thing for him to offer at that point were he in possession of the ability. From the beginning Sidious says that Anakin will do it through his assistance in learning to know the dark side of the Force.

 

That's the whole problem. When I'm saying it's out of tone with the OT, it's because the faustian arc makes it a mean to an end : the dark side to save Padme, thus completely different from the OT conception of succumbing to the dark side in ESB and ROTJ you mentions, which by the way and like TOSCHISTATION said is not believable either, at least for adults (Luke has no reason to join the Emperor after eventually killing his father), but nevertheless really dramatic and metaphorical. We "buy" it in ROTJ because it's the actual conception of turning to the dark side in the OT. No more.

In the PT, it's meant to be a progressive turn : the roots of evil and how a lovable and highly gifted children becomes a bad person. But until the "Turn scene", Anakin remains basically good, however troubled, precisely because he's struggling with his dark tendancies and his inability to let go. Then the sudden decision to join the evil Palpatine to save his wife from death feels inevitably rushed to some people like me.

 

Not sure that really makes a difference, as Anakin still knew that killing Dooku like that was wrong, dark side offer or no.

Utilitarian philosophy/practicality "trumps" ethics/morality?

Doesn't square with Anakin in an earlier scene* sticking to his ethical 'guns', so to speak.

* (paraphrasing) "The Jedi think of others."

 

Anakin in the opera-House is a guy afraid of bungee-jumping... who then meditates for five minutes before jogging into the Chancellor's office to volunteer to skydive without a parachute.

THAT, is how his turn comes across on-film, to me.

 

Indeed, that's how it goes.

But that sudden decision and giving in, especially being aware of who Palpatine really is, is kind of hard to believe for some people, even with a strong fear of loss in him, and that's probably why it feels rushed to them.

Anyway, I aknowledge this is only movies, made essentially for young people, and that it's not primarily meant to be completely realistic of course.

So the turn is fine to many people as well.

 

Agreed.

I should also note that I've always maintained that the turn works, as presented.
I've just never felt satisfied, by all the alterations and going away from the original intent/content. But it certainly fits.... as is.

 

I don't think it works at all and it's completely unsatisfying to me. The whole thing is unbelievable and Anakin comes off unbelievably stupid and unsympathetic. I mean that literally, it's unbelievable and I have no sympathy for Anakin.

By far the biggest problem with the prequels for me, the main protagonist is absolutely unbearable.