PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

I never said its believable.... as is.
It was simply made to fit.


Anakin's TURN is sortof like the Skywalker twins....
Hard to believe THAT was The Plan all along.

Real tragedy of Darth Vader is that his turn is little more than a shadow of it's former self.
But when the saga-credits role, the results are still basically the same:
Twins or no twins. Stupid turn, or not....
Anakin became Vader, then rejected that path.

 

^ This has nothing to do with what I said, which was only that the dark side is not snake oil in the sense that it works.

 

I wonder how it wouldve turned out if Lucas pulled a Harry Potter and made the movie in 2 parts

 

One thing is certain, Lucas would have an extra 300mil in the bank.
Minimum.

 

I would have loved to see this.

Perhaps we could have seen Vader hunting down Jedi. Padme could have not died in childbirth and lived with Leia for a couple years. Maybe Obi-Wan would try to turn Vader back, as said in ROTJ. There really is great potential for another movie following Anakin's fall.

 

yes there are seems to see liek Vader killing Jedis

 

Huh?

 

"Not snake oil/the dark side works" is still saying that Anakin should ignore the fact that Sidious/Palpatine was ultimately behind the attempts to kill Padme in the previous films.*

*at a time when Palpatine/Sidious was orchestrating events according to a plan in which Anakin was not a key element or hardly mattered.

 

While I get your point, whether Sidious was technically behind this is debatable.
In TPM he doesn't seem to want Padme gone, mostly because of the need for her to sign the treaty. IMO it made no difference to Sidious whether she was alive after this point.
In AOTC, I see more of a grey area though. Firstly, the main person who begrudgingly wants Padme killed is Nute Gunray. How much the assassanation attempts were orchestrated by him, I'm not sure. Yes, Dooku was behind it, but you could say he was just helping the Seperatists to gain their trust (or something). I say grey area because it's hard to say whether Sidious wanted her dead at all. Nute however, wanted her dead, and got satisfaction from her suferring. And Anakin disposes of him personally...

Also, you could argue that Palpatine wanted her alive so it would be easier to turn Anakin. That, however, is probably a bit far-fetched.

 

There really is no evidence that Sidious is behind the attempts on Padme's life in AOTC. From the audience's perspective, it simply looks like a personal plot by Nute Gunray, facilitated by Count Dooku and executed by Jango Fett. Mistakes made in the execution allow the Jedi to discover the secret clone army and the Confederate corporate conspiracy, all based on some ammunition that Fett uses in the heat of the moment. That last point alone indicates that Palpatine most likely has nothing to do with this.

Unless he tells Fett to use that ammo at that exact moment, or else knows that he would do that. Palpatine planned everything that everyone did, remember?

The main question is whether Anakin can distinguish between Palpatine/Sidious and Nute Gunray. He hears the holographic Obi-Wan say that Gunray is behind the attempts on Padme's life. However, he also knows that Sidious is the real leader of the Confederacy (which he hates with a passion) and is in league with Gunray.

A reasonable person in the audience could work out that Sidious doesn't want Padme dead. However, does Anakin work this out or does he immediately conflate Sidious with Gunray?

 

Well, one could say that Anakin obviously believes that Sidious wasn't behind the attempts on Padme's life, hence he had no problem joining Sidious. The question is, should he have been so certain that Sidious had no involvement there?

 

He does know that Sidious is in league with Gunray and controls the CIS. He could possibly jump from this link to the notion that Sidious is somehow behind the assassination attempts.

Does he simply blame Gunray and leave it at that, or does he spend the three years between AOTC and ROTS seething about how the mysterious Sith Lord is ultimately responsible? I'm more inclined to agree the former, primarily because of the fact that he joins Sidious in order to save Padme's life.

 

It's just insanely stupid. Sidious is the boss, everything the Separatists do is his responsibility. Sidious is behind the entire war, Anakin knows this. Whether Anakin doesn't make the connection or sides with Sidious despite this knowledge, either way it breaks my "suspension of disbelief".

 

Remember, though-- almost as soon as Anakin turns, he's plotting to murder Sidious and take over from him. Still, even then he doesn't seem to think he's evil ("From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"), so you're right, rationality is not really his thing at that point.

 

I actually don't think there's a connection, or even that there should be an expectation that Anakin should make a connection.

Nute Gunray may be a pawn, but he is a powerful pawn. He's the former Viceroy of the Trade Federation. He's one of the top leaders of the Confederacy. Killing a seemingly insignificant old enemy is not something which he would need Sidious' approval for. It's probably standard procedure in the GFFA's private sector.

All in all, the whole assassination/mystery/discovery plot of AOTC seems like a massive blunder on Gunray's part that causes Sidious' plan to unravel ahead of schedule. It's a very minor setback, but unless he knows exactly how Jango Fett and Obi-Wan Kenobi will react in every possible situation, it's certainly not something that looks like it's in Sidious' plans.

On the other issue, Gunray is a powerful enough object of hate on his own that Anakin doesn't need to blame Sidious. Anakin probably understands that Gunray is powerful and hateful enough to place a price on Padme's head, even without explicit approval from a shadowy Sith superior, and leaves it at that.

Even if I'm wrong and Sidious is behind it, then that last paragraph still stands. Anakin has no reason to single out anyone other than Gunray.

 

Sidious at the very least knew about the assassinations and allowed them. I think he agreed to assassinate Padme to appease Gunray.

First, I don't think Gunray just happened to hire the same bounty hunter that was working for Dooku at the time.

Then there's this:

GUNRAY: What about the Senator from Naboo? Is she dead yet? I am not signing your treaty until I have her head on my desk.
DOOKU: I am a man of my word, Viceroy.

As a condition of Gunray's cooperation, Dooku was supposed to have Padme killed.

Obviously Anakin didn't hear that exchange, but Sidious is the boss. He ordered the attack on Naboo in the first place. He is behind the whole war, Anakin knew this. With this knowledge, it breaks my suspension of disbelief for Anakin to side with him anyway.

This wasn't a snap decision without thought. Anakin was sitting in the Council chambers alone for some time before he chose.

Anakin: Palpatine is the Sith Lord, the one we've been looking for.

The entire plot behind Anakin's turn is a complete failure in my eyes.

 

Where's the evidence for this?

This still doesn't involve Sidious. This just proves Dooku's involvement. I'm sure Dooku can unleash his pet mercenary on a politician without Sidious knowing.

Again, there's no evidence in AOTC that Sidious is behind this. It's very explicitly something demanded by Gunray and carried out by Dooku and his minion Fett. It's a personal revenge quest. The Naboo invasion and the Clone Wars, on the other hand, are galaxy-changing events, part of Sidious' grand plan to seize absolute power. They are not at all alike.

Sidious doesn't know every single order that Gunray gives to Rune Haako and OOM-9 in TPM. He simply expects results from Gunray. Likewise, he doesn't necessarily know the private dealings of Gunray and Dooku in AOTC.

More importantly, why should Anakin be expected to find a dubious link and avoid allying with Sidious based on this? Even if he could conceivably make a link between Sidious and the assassination attempts (based on his known control of the CIS and his known association with Dooku and Gunray), he could easily disregard this hunch and proceed to blame a powerful businessman and a Sith Lord he has already killed, at least one of whom he knows to be directly responsible. He has no evidence of Sidious' involvement in what he knows is Gunray's personal scheme.

There's no need for any cognitive dissonance on Anakin's part, just uncertainty.

 

I agree with this post. Anakin personally kills the two main people responsible for the attempts on Padme's life, with his own hands. The desperation he is feeling at the time, and the perceived hypocrisy in the Jedi, makes it believable that he would choose to keep Palpatine alive. Remember, when he decides this he is not neccessarilly betraying the Jedi yet, but with the death of Mace things spiral out of control and he takes the seemingly easy way out.

 

Obviously I disagree. I think Sidious did know about the assassination attempts, and the conversation between Gunray and Dooku is enough evidence for me. Moving on.

As for the war and the attack on Naboo, I know they aren't like the assassination attempts, that wasn't my point. In fact, you make my point for me. Those were galaxy changing events that caused a massive amount of pain and suffering, and Sidious is behind it all. Sidious is responsible for the attack on his wife's planet and the war Anakin has been fighting nonstop, risking his life, for the last three years. Sidious is the reason Anakin was away from Padme. Sidious is the cause of all those Jedi deaths. Sidious is the cause of all the major evil in the galaxy. Anakin claims to want peace, yet he allies himself with the person entirely responsible for the war. There wouldn't be a war without Sidious.

Also, Anakin doesn't need evidence for anything. A simple hunch or an instinct should be enough to warn him off. I mean, he is about to jump off a cliff here with Sidious as his parachute. Anakin didn't have any evidence that Padme was going to die or that Sidious could possibly save her, either. You mentioned uncertainty, and obviously Anakin is uncertain about his decision. I have a problem with that. The decision he is making is kind of a big deal, yes? You'd think he'd want some certainty before he jumps off a cliff. You'd think an uncertain person would play it safe with a decision with such personal and galactic consequences.

Here's the huge problem I have. Anakin learns a secret, a reality breaking secret and seems to know what it means. Then, inexplicably, he ignores everything he learned and joins Sidious anyway.

I'm trying to put myself in that situation (do it with me). I just learned "a terrible truth" as Anakin calls it, and now I have time to myself to consider it.

When you learn something like that, when you suddenly possess that kind of knowledge, don't you reconsider everything? Don't you start making connections? Don't things start falling into place? I don't know about you, but I would question everything involving that person (Sidious) since the day I met them. I would reconsider every word they've said, every action, and every judgement I've made concerning them.

Sidious has been lying to him for 10 years. When you discover that kind of secret, it makes you question everything. It's like you discovered your wife cheated on you, or is actually a spy working for the enemy or something world shattering. Everything you thought you knew is now in question. I would be extremely paranoid and the last thing I would do is trust anything that person (Sidious) says or take their side in anything. Instead, Anakin trusts him with his life, his wife's life and the future of the entire galaxy and everyone in it. He even kills for him.

How would you react to that situation?

It's been mentioned in this thread, Anakin comes off as unbelievably stupid and the biggest jerk in the prequels. I can't sympathize with him, I can't root for him, I can't even tolerate him. I hate that in a main protagonist. I hate that Darth Vader was reduced to what we see in the prequels.

 

Doing it with you...

...

That slimey SOB! He's played me for a blind fool for 13 years! He's played me, the Jedi, and the Galaxy for 13 years! I ought to just march right up there and help Mace kill him! Better yet, I'll do it myself!

 

While I said I agree with the QuangoFett's post, I'm not sure Sidious necessarilly didn't know, just that he wasn't behind the attempts on Padme's life. One indicator for me is that he gets Obi-Wan and Anakin together with Padme, at least, it's his suggestion ("An old friend, like Master Kenobi"). I don't see any reason for him to want Padme dead. Having said that, it's obviously bs when he says the thought of losing her is "unbearable".

You've got me on that last point. Very true. While I think part of Anakin knew this, I don't think he really had much of a choice. Yes, Sidious was the cause of most of the galaxy's problems, but through him was the only reasonably reliable solution. It probably seemed too good to be true, all the stress he's having and he conveniently learns of the exact tool he needs to soothe it. By the time of the conflict in the Chancellor's office, he isn't thinking rationally anymore, and IMO would side with anyone at this point.

I disagree here. Anakin's dreams have always been prophetic, and he starts to have them about the only person that matters to him (until further into his slide, of course, where it all becomes about Vader and Sidious). It's not like a regular person having a nightmare. He dreamed he would marry Padme in the TPM novel (so I'm told), he dreamed his mother would die, he dreams he will one day free the slaves, which he (arguably) metaphorically does. I think it is unfair to say he should have just gotten over it.

You're probably right here. But as I said, it was exactly what he needed to hear. Wanting access to the Jedi holocrons, with little or no evidence that they held the key, proves he would grasp at any possible way to stop the change. He was slowly going insane, and as he went further down (even before the 'turn') it became harder and harder to go back. It, of course, consumes him to the point that by the time of the confrontation on Mustafar, he's almost forgotten why he started.

True. But personally I think his thoughts at this stage would be getting a bit eratic, and he isn't weighing things up accurately. It probably seems more certain than anything the Jedi can offer him.