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PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Padmes_love_slave24, Aug 8, 2011.

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  1. Bens_Dad

    Bens_Dad Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Sep 26, 2010
    No argument from me. Actually, my wife picked up on the attachment issue straight away in TPM. She said "I bet he returns to Tatooine in the next film to try and rescue his mother". And, of course, she was right.

    Putting aside spouses who "see things before they happen" I think this is the genius of the writing in the prequels. Fans came to the first film thinking Anakin would clearly have a dark side and this would be revealed in some overt way during the movie (let's face it, a certain generation of fans wanted every film of the PT to be TESB). It didn't happen and those fans came away thinking Anakin was just a whiny kid and called him Mannequin Skywalker (hilarious). But dark deeds can come from the sincerest and purest of emotions and Yoda recognises Anakin's attachment and warns against it. Then, in AOTC, Anakin is a teenager, filled with the usual flux of confusing emotions that part of life brings. Added to that, Palpatine has been working his head for the past ten years and his master Obi-wan doesn't know how to handle him. In ROTS, his attitudes are set in stone, he has not conquered his attachment and he's really an accident waiting to happen.

    When he helps kill Mace Windu - in that scene which some fans hold up as an example of his turn being rushed, thus completely disregarding everything that's happened up to this point - he acts impulsively - as anyone who can't control their emotions does - and then is instantly regretful. It's like smacking a child; you do it without thinking and then are immediately sorrowful and wish you'd not done it.
     
  2. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    That's exactly how I felt about it. It's as if a scene was cut out between Anakin's initiation and his attack on the Jedi Temple that showed he was fighting with himself from continuing on.
     
  3. Bens_Dad

    Bens_Dad Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Sep 26, 2010
    But Anakin is now Darth Vader and has accepted the mantle of aprentice to a Sith Lord. I'm sure at this point in his life Anakin knows enough about the Sith to know that Sidious isn't exactly going to ask him to go out and pick flowers. The Sith do bad things, Sidious has asked him to wipe out all the Jedi. This is a bad thing. However, it's a necessary evil in order to save Padme, from Anakin's point of view, so he's not going to argue with the order.
     
  4. Bens_Dad

    Bens_Dad Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Sep 26, 2010
    You're struggling here!

    Palpatine was a friend and mentor to Anakin ever since he was ten years old. He did a lot of work on the boy to ensure that Anakin saw him as a confidante and he constantly fed his ego with remarks like "I see you as being the strongest of all the Jedi, even stronger than Master Yoda". Why, then, would it ever occur to Anakin that he was being manipulated?

    In life, we often put our faith in the wrong people. Anakin is no different.

    Lucas's heroes are flawed, Anakin especially so. I venture that the people who are lambasting the character because they feel he comes across as beig too unsympathetic would be the very same folk would would criticise Anakin if he were too virtuous, their argument being that how could someone so likeable become so evil.
     
  5. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    Regardless, there still should have been a scene showing that he was at odds about going forward with the slaughter. Everybody would have stopped and thought about it before acting so rashly. He had enough time to think twice about what he was going to do, but instead we get an instant conversion and the murder of hundreds of his colleagues.
     
  6. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    He does it regretfully and he isn't converted yet. He has literally no other option at the moment.
     
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  7. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    Really? I thought the reason for Anakin's physical taking part in the massacre is pretty self-explanatory.

    He isn't the only one killing the Jedi. He's surrounded by clone troopers who will shoot anyone they identify as a traitor. The entire montage prior to this scene establishes this. It's not like Anakin can even refuse to kill his fellow Jedi at this point.

    Arguably, Anakin isn't really "leading" the clones. The 501st Legion is already in the process of executing Order 66. Anakin is just along for the ride.

    Why is he even in the situation of being surrounded by clones who - it is heavily implied - will kill/apprehend him if he hesitates in the act?

    Because he's painted himself into a corner by impulsively helping Sidious kill Windu for his own selfish reasons. He has made a deal with the devil and one of the conditions is to murder the Jedi in the Temple.

    Now, the sudden: "I will do whatever you ask;" submission was a bit hard to take and is worthy of criticism. It's handled much better in the novelisation, where Sidious tells Anakin to be loyal to his family. Anakin's response - "The Jedi are my family," - is half-hearted as the reality of what he has done is sinking in, and Sidious' effective rebuttal finally tips the balance of loyalty in his mind from 'Padme >= Jedi' to 'Padme >> Jedi'. It's only now that Anakin declares loyalty to Sidious out of expediency. The film would have benefitted from this dialogue, IMO.
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    There is a lot of dialogue in the novelization that should have been in the film.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    I don't know if that would really help. By the time Mace has been killed, the prospect of Anakin going back to a position of good standing in the Jedi order seems fairly remote, and he's led to believe that the Jedi simply do not have the knowledge necessary to save Padme. Thus he is to some extent in a "point of no return" scenario.
     
  10. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, and he acknowledges that he thinks he's passed the point of no return when he says "what have I done?!"
     
  11. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    You're both correct. With a bit of thought, you understand that Anakin has his back to the wall and that joining Sidious is his only avenue to achieve his ambitions.

    However, many viewers don't put thought into this. Lucas didn't bang this point over viewers' heads, so they didn't get it. Some of them even think that a switch suddenly flips in Anakin's head and he becomes a 100% willing Sith Lord. A bit of denial on Anakin's part and then an eventual - visibly reluctant - turn would have helped to make it clear that he doesn't suddenly become a 100% willing Sith Lord. The novelisation shows the logical argument that makes it clear why Anakin allies himself with Sidious: Padme is all he has left as he has inadvertently burned his bridges with the Jedi.
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I think chopping Mace's arm off makes the burnt bridges pretty clear.

    The thing is, I don't believe in "the point of no return" people are referring to, so I can't swallow it.
     
  13. Merlin_Ambrosius69

    Merlin_Ambrosius69 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 4, 2008
    It seems to me that the Ruminations sequence before the Turn, and Anakin's shedding a tear on Mustafar after the Turn, make it clear that he is conflicted, and that he has thought through the consequences of his actions prior to making the choice. He has decided that Padme is the most important person in the world to him; that he will do whatever it takes to save her; and that the Jedi are "evil" for any number of delusional reasons he has concocted in his mind to justify his actions.

    I don't feel the Turn is rushed, nor that there is any missing scene between his Turn and his raid on the Jedi Temple. The Younglings are Jedi; they are the Enemy. How many veterans of war have found themselves committing similar atrocities based on a perception that they, the murderers, are in the right from a moral or political perspective? The urge to kill one's enemies is human; the slaughter at the Temple doesn't make Anakin some kind of incomprehensible monster beyond explanation or understanding.
     
  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    The novel Dark Lord does a decent job of explaining Anakin's rationalization for killing the younglings, supposedly provided by the dark side itself:

    They are orphans. They are without family or friends. There is nothing that can be done with them. They are better off dead.
     
  15. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Huh?

    They have parents, they're just in boarding school. Send them back to their parents.

    The Jedi are their family, and Anakin is killing them. If you don't kill them, they have family.

    They have friends, each other. If you don't kill them, they have friends.

    Nothing that can be done with them? They have incredible talent and the beginning of a "galaxy class" education.

    Better off dead? Good job playing God on such a disturbing scale.

    Imo, that's an awful attempt at rationalization.

    It would have been if he had just said to himself, "they're in my way, they gotta die so I can have what I want".

    Dark Lord was a rather poor showing from Luceno, imo.
     
  16. gobalicious

    gobalicious Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 30, 2010
    Anakin always had the option of running away. He didn't need to go to the Jedi Temple at all. He had his speeder right at Palpatine's office. He could have scooped up Padme, found Obi-Wan, confessed what he had done, and revealed Palpatine's plan to destroy the Jedi.
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    ...and then Padme dies, according to his belief.
     
  18. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    It is because he goes from a relatively normal boy to psychotic in mere seconds (I'm referring to the Tusken massacre of course). Yes, I am of the opinion that he has already fallen in AOTC. Just took him a while to realize his "true" self.
     
  19. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    So Anakin ends up doing what he did in ROTS and Padme still dies....by his own hand.
    He realizes the hard way that HE is the cause of his visions becoming real.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    PMT99: The ROTS novelization mentions a Jedi teaching regarding self-fulfilling prophecies. According to Stover, Anakin knew that per this teaching, he could end up killing Padme by trhying to keep her alive, but he was I major denial about it.
     
  21. Merlin_Ambrosius69

    Merlin_Ambrosius69 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 4, 2008
    I posted the following message on another discussion board, for non-fans who had questions about Anakin's turn:

    Anakin lost his mother, and murdered innocents because of it. This, among other scenes, establishes that Anakin fears losing the ones he loves -- particularly the women in his life -- more than anything else in the world. This can be traced back to Anakin being separated from his mother in childhood, and from loving Padme since childhood as well.

    It is established throughout III that Anakin, because of recurring visions and nightmares, fears losing Padme in childbirth. It is further established that, as Sidious claims, only the Dark Side of the Force has the power to save people from dying.

    It is further established that Anakin's political views drive him to support the Chancellor in what they both perceive as a coup by the Jedi to wrest power away from Palpatine. Also, Anakin is power-hungry and wants to be greater, more powerful than he is.

    All of this is well within the parameters of comprehensible human behavior, attachment and emotion.

    The scene called "Ruminations" -- in which Anakin and Padme think about one another at a distance, with only instrumental accompaniment -- resolves itself in Anakin taking action to help Darth Sidious. Anakin has decided that Padme is the most important thing to him; all else pales before that one, paramount consideration.

    It's a potent mix: joining the Dark Side in the hope of saving Padme from death; siding with the Chancellor -- the one person who can teach him this skill -- because the Jedi have instigated a rebellion; justifying his actions with appeals to democracy and preserving peace.

    And finally, jealousy rears its head several times with regard to Kenobi, but not in the love-triangle sense that might have seemed contrived. Anakin has long felt that Kenobi is "holding him back" from being as powerful as he deserves to be; that Kenobi has been poisoning Padme's opinion of him; that Kenobi is interfering in their relationship and trying to drive them apart.

    The source of their division is not sexual or romantic; this aspect is unnecessary, as the seeds of jealousy lie in Anakin's thirst for power, not in worrying whether Padme is cheating on him.

    Add to this the mentorship under Palpatine, who has told Anakin for many years that he deserves more than what the Jedi are willing to give him.

    And now all that can save Padme is the Dark Side power to stop people from dying. His only hope rests there. Sidious admits he does not know the skill, but together the two of them can find it and save her.

    Considering all of this complex, nuanced, multi-layered background to Anakin's turn, I for one find it entirely organic to the story and understandable from a human/male/power-hungry/fear-of-loss perspective.
     
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  22. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Anakin's turn is obviously "rushed" because Anakin goes running towards Palpatine's office and only halts himself at the last moment; when it is way too late to matter to anyone that Anakin was running, or escape their notice in the first place. Duh.

    On the other hand, Anakin's pledge is preceded by a poetic montage between him and Padme, where these two characters stand and contemplate each other through large windows at the top of massive edifices, built on the tops of other, even more massive edifices, and this means... something. I think it means that Anakin's turn has been "built up" (most of which has been implied, not shown); so it shouldn't be any surprise that the last stretch involves hasty decision-making (to wit: how long does it take to build a structure versus collapsing one?).

    My 0.02 cents.
     
  23. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 9, 2009
    True.

    But beyond this, the turn feels inevitably rushed and ununderstandable for some people because it is a conscious one. Turning to the dark side here mainly means pledging himself to the Sith and becoming the Emperor's apprentice. And although the movies indeed try to convey a built-up with many elements, Anakin never really embraces the dark side or the Sith. It's pure break of the unbearable inner tension, to solve the conflict, like the novel really shows.

    The question is wether there was another way of constructing Anakin's corruption and final turn, the sleeping away from the Jedi and what he basically was before (although flawed), on-screen.

    Given how the story unfolds from TPM, Palpatine/Sidious dual personality and purely evil deeds from the beginning, there was in my opinion no other way to proceed than a completely emotional, unrational and brutal turning moment. Given that Anakin remains a good person, although more and more troubled, until the final decision.

    According to some reliable sources (SHOSW) and G.Lucas himself, the actual turn scene is the one thing the producer/director never really thought about specifically before scripting ROTS and the whole PT. And therefore the whole turn issue and execution was then made to roughly fit with other elements already hammered out and shot.
     
  24. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Well, I was kinda teasing. :p

    Ultimately, I think this is not the kind of issue to argue out logically (i.e., that can be argued out logically), or even find common ground about.

    In other words, everyone has and is entitled to their own opinion.

    It's almost as if George Lucas is wanting us to project our own reasoning onto the film, in so critical a moment, to make sense of it all, on our own terms.

    I really like that last-sentence fragment: "it's pure break of the unbearable inner tension". Twice in ROTS, once before the turn, and once after, characters specifically talk about Anakin being "under a lot of stress"; like a piece of metal; or a machine. Ironically, neither of these characters seems to truly understand what's eating away at Anakin, or even that he IS being eaten away at. In fact, it is Padme who first uses the phrase, quoting Obi-Wan ("He says you've been under a lot of stress"), and later, it is Threepio, speaking to Artoo, who probably got it from Padme ("Well, he is under a lot stress, Artoo"). So, in a way, it's like this hot potato that gets passed around, but no-one, save the Emperor, and maybe Yoda (a little bit), really has the first clue (alright, maybe also Padme, slightly, after the ruminations sequence). It's almost as if they're as blind as we are; or we, them. I think the films' very constitution -- their melange of digital and practical effects, the characters, the incidents, the sound effects, etc. -- all key us into Anakin's psyche. Indeed, I think you could argue that the specific and subtle assembly and disposition of each movie *is* Anakin's psyche, writ large (the epic is the intimate just as the intimate is the epic). Therefore, in order to understand Anakin's "turn", we really need to be paying attention to all areas, big and small; especially those times, in fact, that Anakin is NOT on the screen (because, again, he always is -- in allegorical terms). Remember, Qui-Gon tells the Jedi Council he has encountered "a vergence" in the Force. The films converge and diverge around Anakin and his "troubles". Imagine painting out the emotional topography of a person, real or fictional, in cinematic form. In essence, you could say that that's exactly what the PT is: a sprawling tapestry of Anakin Skywalker, the "human being" of the saga who becomes a "machine".

    Although the author's work and dedication to a cause is impressive, I wouldn't exactly call SHOSW a "reliable" source. The author reveals a strong streak of anti-PT bias in their book, their two websites and their thousands of forum posts (here and elsewhere). Equally, they were not present when Lucas was writing out his notes, drafts
     
  25. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 9, 2009
    I know Zombie is pro-OT and rather disappointed by the PT. Like I am mostly. Doesn't mean I hate the PT by the way.

    I have to disagree with you when you say that SHOSW is anti-PT biased. Don't get me wrong. I don't take everything for granted from him or his book, and there are things that remains pretty unsolved and ambiguous, like for instance what exactly Lucas 7-10 pages backstory "treatment" consisted of you actually indicate, at least some issues more or less open to personal interpretation in the end.

    But you can't fairly say the book is anti-PT biased. The author often refers to many interviews, statements by Lucas himself or close working mates like Mc Callum, actual screenplays among other things. Anyway, you can't really find something undermining or expressing personal distaste for the whole PT. The account of the writing process and filmmaking work, as well as the critical and crowd reaction, is pretty neutral. There might be a couple of innacurate facts here and there, which I'm maybe unable to detect, but think there are really few and not so important regarding the whole subject.

    PS : I mostly agree with you about "Midichlorians" origins in SHOSW, when it is said it was loosely adapted from real-life Mitochondria...Where does it come from, apart from the relative spelling semblance...?
    Although, like Zombie it seems, I'm really not a big fan of this "scientific" explaination of the Force, and in fact pretty ignoring the whole symbiotic issue Lucas apparently wanted to raise in the movie (TPM). Part of the "magic" element of the Force has gone. But that's personal here I confess. "Massa" George does whatever he wants and that's the way it is.;)
     
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