main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Padmes_love_slave24, Aug 8, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Probably in part because the Force remains unexplained, mysterious and "magical" throughout, unlike in the PT.

    That "pact with the devil" arc regarding Anakin's turn in ROTS surely has strong mythical resonance.
     
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Are we talking about the same OT which described the Force as an "energy field", which sounds like something out of a science textbook?
     
  3. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Yes, absolutely.

    To me, that's just 2 words in passing in the whole trilogy...No such things as blood analysis, or microscopic lifeforms living inside us etc...;)
    That energy field remains pretty mysterious.

    Besides, I'm French and in the French version I'm most familiar with, "energy field" was replaced, not properly I confess and I don't know why, by "sort of a fluid", which really gives it a more magical feel. There are a few inaccurate translations of this kind in the French-dubbed version of Star Wars/ANH.
    Anyway when watching the original english version, it doesn't change much to me.

    Yoda's beautiful speech about the Force in ESB when training Luke indeed conveys a sense of marvelous, enchantment and natural wonder, that the PT doesn't. At least not to the same level.
     
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Fluids aren't necessarily magical.

    I have some nonmagical fluid inside me right now.
     
  5. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Probably in part because the Force remains unexplained, mysterious and "magical" throughout, unlike in the PT.


    I disagree. The Force remained mystical to me in the PT. All Qui-Gon did was try to explain a Force user's connection to the Force. He never broke down the Force in scientific terms. Fans have been making this mistake for over a decade now.
     
  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Word. To me, Qui-Gon's very inclusion in the narrative, his championing of "the living Force", his focusing on and subsequent explanation of "midi-chlorians", including the notion of "the will of the Force", to say nothing of the machinations of Palpatine, the slow, troubled descent of Anakin into darkness and mordant self-actualization, the Jedi's waning powers, and "the shroud of the Dark Side", maintained and even added to the mystical nature of "the Force" -- and whatever one thinks or wills that to be.

    On the other hand, I take issue with the idea that something must remain unchanged, and as "magical" on the seventy-eighth day as it was on the first, so to speak. That, to me, is a childish solipsism that puts a stranglehold around art, and, indeed, all human affairs. This all-too-pervasive idea of not looking too closely at a thing, for fear of breaking it, or, more accurately, perhaps, for fear of cheapening someone else's emotional edification, is a mug's game: it is superficially appealing, perhaps, but it ultimately keeps us in creative and intellectual serfdom. No, thanks.

    As Martin Scorsese has said, cinema is a matter of what is in *and* out of the frame, and the PT, in my opinion, holds true to that axiom. That is, the PT, in my view, simultaneously offers revelation and prevarication: a rich interweaving of disclosures and suggestions, full and partial. Just as Lucas offers up one detail, so he will hide or elide another. As viewers, and, hopefully, appreciative fans (seems to be a contradiction in the SW world, but I digress), we have a bigger tapestry to appreciate: one that expands the mythology of its own world, setting patterns in place -- literally offering us patterns to devour -- whilst embedding greater mysteries in and around those patterns. In a way, the PT is "biblical" (an elaborate compendium of contrasting meditations and edicts on the human being, society and reality), while the OT is "folksy" (has a simple-but-powerful homespun charm and series of broad distillations and simplifications befitting a story told masterfully round a gentle fire). They are two types of narrative both centered around this mysterious construct known as "the Force". We are encouraged to use imagination in our communion with both sets and types of stories. I do not share any of the contemporary disdain on this or related matters.
     
  7. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Sure. Liquids aren't magical at all...But "it is a sort of fluid (fire) created by all living things..." in the context really conveys a mystical feel to me. At least in French...It's likely the word in itself has slightly different meanings and interpretations in French than in English.

    All I was trying to say anyway is that the Force in the OT is not explained or seen through biological elements contained in one's body (blood, microscopic lifeforms...). It basically consists in a mysterious surrounding energy field, created by living things and binding the universe together. No more. I think we can more or less agree on this, no ?

    The developments about the Force in the PT, especially in TPM, really add a more organic and scientific aspect to this, obviously modifying the general perception we had from the originals. I guess that was the purpose for G.Lucas. I'm not criticizing here, although I personally liked the former enigmatic approach more. That's the way it is in the PT, that's Lucas' eventual vision. But it sure turn things around a little.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    That, and Force ability being passed down in a bloodline.
     
  9. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Right.

    But no further details...All we knew was that the ability to use it was kind of hereditary.;)

    Lucas chose to tell more about this in the PT, addressing the Force in the foreground, and to go for further biological details. That's what I mean here. And that's the way it is.

    I'd just have personally prefered this not to be explained further...But it's just me and the tastes of my own.

    Massa George was in charge, not I !
     
  10. AnakinBrego

    AnakinBrego Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Here's the thing that bothers me with Anakin's turn to the dark side, is that he yells, "What have I done!!" and falls backwards and sits, he looks like a wreck in his collapse! Then the next time he's on screen (from the front) he doesn't look upset. He he just looks exhausted, and says he'll do what ever Palpatine wants of him. His shift from these extreme emotions from one to the other so quickly that it is completely unrealistic.

    See Anakin should of continued being emotionally upset, Palpatine has to calm him down and get his attention and remind him that it's all about saving Padme. When Anakin refocusses he realizes he's trapped, and joins Palpatine. He has no choice, if arresting or killing Palpatine, Padme is dead. He's a criminal for being an accomplice in the killing of Mace Windu. See this makes more sense!

    In the movie Anakin is a wreck and a few seconds later he looks a little exhausted and asks to join Palpatine without even a blink of an eye, where did the distraught go? So quickly?. He knows what he did was wrong that what the yell was all about! But seconds later he looks a little tired and he's telling Palpatine he will join him so he can save Padme. Where did his upset go? His response time is so unrealistic. It kills me!

    People's criticism of these films aren't because they are the Prequels! It's because how unrealistic the characters behave and respond to one another in these films!
     
  11. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2010
    "Rushed?"
    It's stretched out over 3 films & a whole tv series :p

    What people don't like is that Anakin doesn't make his decision based on any compelling dramatic reason, the way Lucas structured it, he is manipulated and exploited when he's at his weakest. I can imagine, judging by fan tastes (Dark Knight, Avatar, LotRs) what they would have preferred, but I like Lucas's gutsy attempt to do something different. Anakin is closer to Hamlet or Oedipus than Mark Antony or Iago. It's a matter of taste, or willingness to go along with the storyteller.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Well said.

    It takes time to slowly drive someone insane by manipulating and exploiting all his emotional weak points. And that's what happened here.

    As far as the exhaustion: one, he literally was exhausted. The novelization said that Anakin did not remember the last time he ate or slept, and that he denied himself sleep because sleep brought the visions back. Two, the exhaustion showed just how defeated he was, more so than hysterics would have.
     
  13. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2010
    I agree with this. The best drama in "Sith" is when no one is even talking. Hayden played Anakin as wiped out, confused & vulnerable. It worked for me. The alternative of giving him one "big" dramatic moment, or slowly building him up as a politicking, plotting individual, would have been interesting as well. But as I said, I like the idea that he's just out of his depth. You have to remember, part of the story is that he remains with the Emperor for decades afterwards -- why? A strong personality would not abide that. Palps would have been dogmeat long before ANH. Anakin is needy, insecure, and looks for leaders & father figures. The best element of the PT is that Anakin loses his mother, his surrogate father figure, loses his mother again (when he could have prevented it) and then thinks that all his surrogate parental figures (including Padme) are "turning against him." Manipulating this kind of person isn't difficult, and the other strong aspect is that Palps, playing for all the marbles, never uses a piece on the board until it's necessary, his long drawing of Anakin out is truly heartless and cruel. You feel some sympathy, even though Anakin lets himself do terrible things. The best writing in the PT, imo, is Ani saying to Obi, "You're like a father to me," and Obi saying in the next film, "You were my brother." Two very different things, Ani needs/wants a father, Obi sees him as a brother-in-arms. What turns Ani/Vader around is that he finally receives the unconditional love he always wanted/needed from his son, and then let's go, which is what redeems him and makes him a Jedi again. He doesn't cling to life to be with Luke. He says goodbye. Powerful stuff.
     
  14. MissPadme

    MissPadme Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    I don't know how on Earth anyone could have missed the mind-jackery that went on for three films that was pushing Anakin to the Dark Side.

    --MissPadme
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I just choked up a bit.

    "I can't leave you here. I've got to save you."
    "You already have, Luke..." :_|

    It's subtle mind-jackery and I've noticed that some fans seem to want something way more blatant. Exhibit A: the complaints that Anakin must not be too bad off as a slave because he got to live with his mother, and we didn't see Watto beating the crap out of him.
     
  16. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    I agree with those who don't think that Anakin's turn was rushed, having developed gradually over the course of three movies spanning more than a decade in time. Also, you have to take things in context of what was previously established. The Force is a two-way street; Jedi can use the Force but the Force can also exert power over them. Return of the Jedi would have us believe that Luke was on the very verge of falling to the Dark Side (which would presumably lead to him joining Palpatine), after a short period of goading. I like to compare falling to the Dark Side with demonic possession. Once a Jedi loses control and takes the plunge, he very quickly stops being who he formerly was. I believe that is why the Jedi Order was so cautious with its emotions, to the point of complete detachment and self-denial. As Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Which is technically wrong, given the ending of ROTJ. However, that view is clearly rooted in how the Force tends to work.
     
  17. JimRaynor55

    JimRaynor55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2005
    Well said. I never thought of Star Wars as a series that was particularly subtle. Sure, the prequels introduced some nuances and morally ambiguous elements. But this has always been a series intended for kids and family audiences. Overall, SW is a series of simple and straightforward movies.

    I've seen this attitude from more than one prequel hater. The desire for everything to be UBER clear, blatantly spelled out to the Nth degree. I don't know if it's a mental make up that prevents them from accepting things without full-on exposition, or if they're just trying way too hard to find fault with the films.

    For example, several of them told me that there was NO possible way for the Anakin in TPM to develop into evil Anakin in ROTS. They apparently couldn't pick up on Ep. I Anakin's sky-high ambitions to be a great hero, his attachment issues, or the way he was embittered later on by his strained relationship with Obi-Wan and the other Jedi. They actually told me that Ep. I Anakin should've been some kind of demon child who gets off on torturing animals, which is just about the most unsubtle and cliche way you could do things. Not to mention how ridiculously inappropriate and undoable that would be in a PG-rated family film. Think people have problems with Jake Lloyd's actual performance? NOBODY would like or sympathize with Anakin if he were actually portrayed according to the above suggestions.
     
  18. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    I concur. The scene is not convincing to me either and feels unbelievable.
    That line "what have I done", and the way he acts, suggests that, even to this point after he helps to kill Mace, the conflict is still on.
    Then in the next shot he seems completely possessed and submits to Palpatine. The confilct should at least have ended when Anakin arrives in the chancellor's office and cut Mace's hand.

    Anyway, given the fact that Anakin becomes torn by his loyalty to the Jedi order and his desire to save Padme at all costs, the choice is necessarily some kind of sudden and abrupt. But the way it is performed by Christensen and the moment it happens is really not convincing.
     
  19. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I AM a proud prequel fan, and I most certainly saw the slow, subtle undermining of Anakin. BUT, there's just something a bit off in my view, maybe in the acting or maybe in my reaction, but to dismiss the viewpoint of those of us who feel something is a bit off is no more fair than our dismissing yours.

    Gah, perhaps even a deep breath/expel as if Anakin recognized he was trapped, or consciously made a decision might have helped. Perhaps I feel some tiny gesture was needed because after his near collapse he's suddenly all business like he agreed 100% with Sids, emotionally and mentally, not like he's weary of fighting his decision.

    Maybe that's what I hoped to see, that moment when he stops fighting and that tiny moment when he lets go and makes that decision, THEN runs full throttle with it.

    I've never wanted minutes of screen time or thought such was needed, just a transition from conflicted Anakin to decisive Anakin.
     
  20. Bacon164

    Bacon164 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2005
    I guess the problem people feel with this whole scene is that it's scripted and shot with the idea in mind that Anakin actually turned to the dark side when Sidious revealed himself. The "turn scene" as written actually appears nowhere in the film, the final film version being a cobbling of two completely different sequence of events within Anakin's character (turning to the dark side before Mace arrives versus after he has died), and as a result, doesn't make sense with some people on an emotional level.
     
  21. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2010
    This moment happens on Mustafar, after he's made his pact with the devil. That's the tragedy of it.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    ^^^^^

    I agree. After he kills the Separatists, he cries from remorse. Then a moment later Padme shows up, and he seems to remember why he was doing this--all for her. To save her, to build the life that he wanted them to have together, to be able to love her openly as the Jedi had never allowed him to do.

    In his mind he had no choice, and that's what made him decisive. And why he became so angry with her--in his mind, she didn't understand what he was trying to do.

    It wasn't exactly sane thinking, but that was his rationale.
     
  23. Sword_Of_Goliath

    Sword_Of_Goliath Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Heh heh, it's your sig image!
    I've always called that moment "the weeping demon scene."
    I remember the queasy feeling I had watching it for the first time, when he goes to see Padme after killing all the children, great choice on Lucas's part, really disturbing.
     
  24. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Probably in part because the Force remains unexplained, mysterious and "magical" throughout, unlike in the PT.


    The Force was never explained in a scientific way in the PT. And if you're thinking of midi-chlorians, they were described as microscopic life-forms that reside within the cells of all living things that help them communicate with the Force. They were NOT described as "the Force".



    Hayden played Anakin as wiped out, confused & vulnerable.

    It's funny that you should say this. Whenever I watch ROTS, it always seemed to me that after learning about Padme's pregnancy, Anakin seemed to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
     
  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Just my opinion, for what it's worth...

    The "What have I done?" moment is really a moment where Anakin is horrified at his potential for good and evil. It goes back to the confession scene in AOTC, and even further, actually, to TPM, where both Anakin and Jar Jar do things unconsciously, in part because, I contend, they're more scared of not doing them (flirtations with nihilism: "If they find us, they will crush us, grind us into tiny pieces and blast us into oblivion" = if their conscious selves (Anakin and Jar Jar's) picked up on what the rest of their psyche was doing or thinking, they'd take themselves out of the picture). In ROTS, Anakin has to face up -- to some extent, anyway -- to the depths of his own depravity; of acknowledging his need for something and following it all the way through. And in true Anakin style, he looks to an authority figure -- a father figure, no less -- to set him right. This, in my view, is
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.