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CT How is Luke the most powerful Jedi?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by NakkyGraphics, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. Darth DoJ

    Darth DoJ Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Mar 13, 2016
    He was the most powerful in terms of potential. He didn't realise that potential for many years after ROTJ. He had his father's potential but a better head on his shoulders and all of his body apart from his hand intact.
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Neither was Luke.
     
  3. Zurros Ka

    Zurros Ka Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 26, 2015
    True, but in terms of Jedi training he was more on his way by this point than Rey was, he'd had Obi-Wan teaching him (even if only for s short time)

    It's quite hard to compare the 2 at this point, Sith-I-5 believes that Rey is more powerful than Luke, based on how quickly she learned some Jedi tricks, but how are we comparing? Are we doing Rey in TFA to Luke in TFA? If that's the case I'm guessing Rey will be on the losing end, since Luke has been training for about 40 years at that point
    If we do Rey in TFA to Luke in ANH then it would look like Rey would win, but we also have to bear in mind that Luke used very little force ability in ANH.

    Like I said, it's gonna be difficult to debate until the next film (at the very least), but it's always fun to speculate :D
     
  4. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

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    Aug 14, 2002
    Well, I clearly said that it took Luke three films, so I am comparing Luke in ROTJ to Rey after she caught one of the director's classic lens flares in the face, and had to close her eyes for a sec'.

    You are ignoring that she had no training, didn't KNOW the Force existed a moment ago; unless she's been mind-rubbed, or is pulling info from objects with onieropathy(?), there is literally no limit to what could pop into her noggin next time she has to blink.

    It's a stupid technicality to say she cannot be, by using the word "jedi" as key.

    No reason this ***** couldn't create a Force storm in space, and pull the Finalizer into it, based on how new canon presents how she gains knowledge and mastery.

    Luke meanwhile, is limited by finding a holocron, and what it had on it. To match the Rey example, he better hope it had the last two issues of Dark Empire!
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Well, another thing to consider with Rey is that we don't know if she was being trained and then was taken and had forgotten what she had learned. Or it was blocked from her. Possibly partial amnesia. So it really isn't easy to say that she's stronger than Luke, since she's an enigma.

    Luke had almost no training when he picked up his Lightsaber with the Force. Three years earlier, he just learned about the Force and managed to block three shots. Rey knows the Force exists and realizes that she has it after touching Anakin's saber and while being held by Kylo.

    None the less, it is Lucas and Kasdan who put this in place with ROTJ.

    LUKE: "Then I am a Jedi."

    YODA: "Not yet. One thing remains...Vader. You must confront Vader. Then and only then, a Jedi will you be."


    Well, no one in the films is going to be creating Force storms to suck Star Destroyers into. But as it is, the first Jedi didn't have a Jedi Master teaching them. They had to figure it out and probably weren't that much different from what Rey did. Much less Luke.
     
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  6. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

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    Aug 14, 2002
    You do not know that. The Force storm is the most powerful ability I have seen by a Force user, and while the EU is gone, TFA does seem to have cherry picked bits of it, with a little spin.

    I'm making the point that with Rey, there is no cause and effect. No training and then ability.

    You brought up the instance of Luke blocking shots with lightsabre, with no training. I remember Luke's protests though; because with the blast shield down, he figured he would not be able to see.

    Nobody gave Rey even that direction. She tried something, and it worked.

    Absolutely no reason therefore that a new idea couldn't occur to her, she shrugs, tries it, and she throws a car, levels a building, brings down a star destroyer (she's bored one day, thinks it makes the sky look untidy), because nu-canon means not knowing something can be done, is no impediment to giving it a go, for siths and giggles.
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I seriously doubt Force storms will make their way in.

    No, I said that Luke had no training in lifting a Lightsaber. He didn't know that he could do it, tried it and it worked. Obi-wan didn't give him direction. The only training he had was blocking a few shots. That's not the same as lifting objects. And as I also said, the first Jedi figured out on their own how to lift objects, manipulate minds and block blaster shots.
     
  8. Darth DoJ

    Darth DoJ Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Mar 13, 2016
    Most force sensitive people can figure out most of the force-related powers with minimal guidance, most of the many years of Jedi training are more to do with learning the Jedi code, the philosophies, the theories and religious aspects of the force, and the like AFAIK, as well as how to focus and various other things it's like taking a three year degree on drawing stick figures, the practical aspect is easy, but you're expected to spend years theorising, learning history, names, dates, facts and regurgitating it all into a thesis, essays and exams before you earn your pedigree, but you can skip all that and still be competent at drawing stick figures. Perhaps a better example would have been music? You can be naturally musical or you can become talented through intense study, and the Skywalkers are born with a good ear for music, all the scholarly side of it is dead weight to them, they're naturally masters at the practical stuff, blasting out Metalicca solos the first time they picked up a guitar while you or I would struggle to play Happy Birthday without a few weeks's instruction.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the newcanon, Luke has had some practice in small-scale telekinesis before TESB (Heir to the Jedi) - as well as having Vader use it against him (yanking his saber away) in the comics.

    I figure that in ANH, on the Falcon, Ben told him a few things, and between ANH and TESB, Luke figured out how to actually do them.
     
  10. Worker11811

    Worker11811 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 6, 2016
    That is exactly correct. That's how it works in real life.

    All that dogma stuff. Forget Luke and the Jedi, Rey needs to go back to Maz Kanata and ask to be her pupil!
     
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  11. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

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    Aug 14, 2002
    If we accept that Rey has a very quick mind, then her pulling the lightsabre to her is acceptable, because Kylo reached out for it first.

    Ideally, the editor should have allowed a couple seconds and a close face shot for us to read her confusion then determination as she thinks, Hang on, what's with the 'I'm A Little Teapot' impression'? What's he trying to do? He's never going to reach it from there, unless.... Is that possible? I'm having some of that; either that lightsabre is jumping into my hand, or I'm starring in a gender-flipped Fantastic Four origins story as Mrs Fantastic!
     
  12. Spartan Kobe

    Spartan Kobe Jedi Knight star 1

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    Sep 7, 2014
    He has Anakin's potential but has a better brain. Also, if you go by the old EU he does things like walk on lava and fought so fast that he looked like he had 30 sabers in his hand(to other powerful jedi, too). So basically to other jedi speedsters he's a speedster.
    Also, because I just think this is cool.
     
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  13. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 20, 2015
    Because Yoda ran his Jedi training on Dagobah like a karate "McDojo", which in martial arts circles is a dubious school which gets students to sign up to extortionate annual fees in return for "guaranteed" black belts in under a year.
     
  14. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016

    In fairness to Yoda he was working in bad conditions.
     
  15. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    I'm guessing the better term was "most important" instead of "most powerful".

    Powerful events centered around him and through his actions, but not necessarily that he was a 10/10 for Jedi abilities.

    The most powerful jedi would have sensed his sister BEFORE he made out with her.
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    They didn't exactly make out. She kissed Luke to make Han jealous. It's not like he got to second base with Leia.
     
  17. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Yeah, he only got to Echo Base with Leia.
     
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  18. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 27, 2016
    In the old EU Luke was literally a god with the Force
    What is normal is the son of the chosen one and he reached his maximum potential

    I just hope the Luke of the new trilogy does not disappoint me too much
     
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  19. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016

    According to Lucas the Father in the Mortis Arc of the canon Clone Wars show is the final form of how powerful Anakin could have become, basically a true force god so powerful he could rip space/time. So that was why EU Luke was always written as having reached his father's true potential. He was a Grand Master and could do things that made the prequel Jedi look like children. I'm with you in that it is disappointing they're deciding to nerf Luke in TLJ to make Kylo/Rey seem more powerful.
     
  20. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

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    Oct 17, 2009

    I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm less and less sure that moving objects ISN'T basically the same thing as blocking blaster bolts. They're both done the same way ... by using the Force. And how does one use the Force? To block blaster bolts, Obi-Wan told Luke to feel the Force, let go of your conscious self, and act on instinct. To lift the X-Wing, Yoda told Luke that he had to feel the Force, then "try not." "Try not" sounds suspiciously like a warning against making a conscious effort ... or in other words, Luke had to let go of his conscious self, and act on instinct. Basically: don't think about it, just do it. Just like with the blaster bolts.

    My thinking now is that Luke didn't go to Dagobah to learn a dozen new powers. All Jedi skills are really the same skill ... the skill to use the Force. Luke went to Dagobah to get good at it. To focus, away from all distraction, and just run exercise after exercise after exercise, all under the watchful, experienced eye of a taskmaster/coach who would keep his nose to the grindstone, and who could see exactly what he was doing wrong, what he needed to improve, and what exercises would help him improve fastest. In this sense, Luke's training was probably much more analogous to physical training than vocational training. It was about strengthening and conditioning his mind more than it was about learning specific, discrete skills. The educational component was the philosophical stuff about how Jedi should behave.

    That's not to say that some effects aren't more difficult to achieve. Even if, say, a Jedi mind trick is ultimately performed the same way that blind blaster deflection is, the Jedi mind trick might have a smaller margin for error. In basketball, a jump shot is a jump shot ... the technique is the same, but the farther out you go, the more precisely that technique needs to be performed. Thinking about it, "letting go of your conscious self" is probably easier when you're exercising motor skills like swinging a lightsaber, than it is when you're exercising conversational skills. Higher degree of difficulty, but still ultimately done the same way. Jedi telekinetics would be the same kind of thing. "Lightsaber in my hand now" ... pretty easy not to think too hard about, especially as you get more and more used to doing it. "That starfighter is going to rise up out of that pond and come sit over here on the shore" ... just the seeming enormity of that makes it harder and harder to quiet your own stupid brain and it's ingrained knowledge of physics. Much more difficult, even though the technique is, as Yoda says, "NO different!"

    One last point: this way of looking at Jedi powers is actually a neat solution to the "you must complete the training/already know you, that which you need" paradox between ESB and ROTJ. It's not that there were skills that Luke still hadn't learned when he left Dagobah in ESB, it's that he hadn't achieved a great enough degree of proficiency using the Force to have a reasonable chance to defeat Vader. Yoda wanted Luke to stay and keep practicing. Don't duck out of training camp early, stay and finish the program. When Luke returns and Yoda knows that he's going to die and can't help Luke any more, he reassures Luke that he knows everything he needs to know about how to use the Force, that in the interim he has grown strong enough to face Vader, and that he can take over his own training from here on out.
     
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  21. JEDI-RISING

    JEDI-RISING Chosen One star 6

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    Apr 15, 2005
    the way Rey is being portrayed apparently she is the most powerful jedi
    smh
     
  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Does defeating Kylo Ren make you the most powerful Jedi then?
     
  23. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 27, 2016
    Luke Skywalker was very powerful in the old EU even before of the "canonical" show called The Clone Wars
     
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  24. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016

    Yeah no doubt about it but the Mortis Arc cemented why Luke in EU was shown as being so powerful or at least gave canon explanation; he was what Anakin was supposed to be or as close as was possible. I still think Anakin reaching his full power would have been above anyone in canon, I don't care if they retcon Rey as the "most raw powah ever" Anakin being born FROM the force itself and meeting the Father which is all canon shows he had the greatest potential that can be achieved.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The way Yoda tells Dooku that there is much to learn after manipulating the Sith lightning as he did, indicates that something like that takes a level of skill and training that goes beyond concentrating on moving an object, or pushing a mind to obey you. That might have been something that Yoda would have wanted to teach Luke, but since there's no more time for it, he'll have to make do without it.


    I don't think it is a matter of she's more powerful than Luke or Anakin. She might be on par with Yoda or even Palpatine. Strong enough to be a danger, if she doesn't control her power and her emotions. She's able to do things a bit easier than Luke, but then, Luke had trouble believing in his abilities. It wasn't that Luke couldn't lift the X-Wing because he lacked the power, he lacked the conviction to believe that size and weight didn't matter. The implication with her, Ben and Anakin was that they had a strong connection to the Force, but they lacked the discipline to control it. Rey might be able to do it better than Ben.