main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

How Is The Empire Evil?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Bib Fortuna, Jun 19, 1999.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 1999
    I put this simple question before you all: How is the Empire evil?

    I work with someone who is a fellow Star Wars fan. He favors the Empire. I have nothing against that. But he posed this question to me one day, "How is the Empire evil?" Now I thought that would be an easy question to answer, but he batted all of my responses away like flies. The problem he has with the Classic Trilogy (even in Episode I) is that there is no real proof that the Empire is up to no good. He contends that we don't know that the Rebels aren't the bad guys and the Empire was just trying to bring things to order. I dunno. I have very weak debating skills and I was almost convinced that the Empire WAS good. What do you guys think? And if you can argue that the Empire WASN'T evil, be my guest. This became quite an intriguing topic between my friend and me.
     
  2. darth bong lighter

    darth bong lighter Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    Does blowing up Alderan qualify as being evil? even if the planet was crawling with rebels, isn't it evil to just blow it up? How about killing Owen and Aunt Beru? They didn't aid the rebellion, they just bought a coulpe of droids.
     
  3. Lieutenant Hija

    Lieutenant Hija Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 1999
    If you believe that the Republic was a utopian interplanetary community you're buying into a legend created by Alliance PR people. There is a great deal of negative spin applied to the Empire in the movie scroles and in the novelization, but you have to remember that these movies are histories: histories written by the winners. The Empire is constantly called evil and this has currency for Earth humans because it's in line with current popular political thought. But you can't ignore the benefits of Empire building: more than anything else, peace. And peace creates an environment in which the sciences and humanities always flourish.

    In none of the movies is thee anything that the Empire does that isn't provoked by the Rebel terrorists. The Tantive IV is destroyed because it illegally ran a blockade and stole top secret government documents. The Imperials don't know where these documents are or who may have analized them, so they have no choice but to arrest everyone. The Jawas and the Lars are killed on Tatooine because there is no way of knowing whether they war spys. The destruction of Alderaan is identical in intent to the A-bomb attacks on Japan during WWII. The Empire wanted to end the Rebellion through intimidation rather than with invasions with would have cost many Imperial lives. Vader strangled a rebel and tortured Leia because their plan for ending the war had been compromised. War is a messy business. And this isn't a war that the Empire started.

    And think about the future of the galaxy after the Empire is crippled in ROTJ. The tiny Rebel fleet is now supposed to enforce peace in the galaxy: they can't do it. They've created a political vacuum where agressive militarized worlds and countries will be free to start wars. The Alliance has doomed thousands of worlds to conquest.

    There is no justice without peace.
     
  4. Macross

    Macross Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 25, 1999
    The Empire is evil as it was created and held together by the Emperor's will and bond with the Dark Side of the Force.

    How evil? How can you measure evilness? It is evil, that is all that matters.

    [This message has been edited by Macross (edited 06-19-99).]
     
  5. Vader

    Vader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 1999
    That's a very modernistic view, Macross.

    First of all, what makes the Dark Side "Evil"?
    How can a bipolar natural phenomenon, such as the Force, recognize a Christian value system? Answer: it can't.

    The force is described as a "Ying-Yang"-style complementary-dualist ecological system, except where the viewpoint that the story's teller promotes tries to impose a "Good-Evil" antagonistic-dualist value system upon it.
    These two do not match; nor can they be made to.

    So, the Dark Side isn't "Evil", and so, nor is the Empire, as such.


    Second, the Trilogy obviously promotes the agenda of the terrorist Rebel movement. I find the entire version of events as seen on-screen to be highly questionable.

    For instance: an entire legion of crack ultra-hi-tech heavy Marines with armoured support can not be defeated by a tribe of furry neolithic midgets supported by a small handful of lightly armed irregulars. It just doesn't happen.
    To those with knowledge of military matters, upon analysis, it becomes obvious that the battles of Endor, above as well as below, must have been won by the Empire.


    So, the Trilogy, and especially ROTJ, is a work of propaganda, that shows a sequence of events as the Rebels would wish for them to unfold, while portraying Rebel characters as knights in shining armour, and Imperial characters as soulless, brainless Space Nazis.

    Lt. Hija, you assume that the Rebels won. That assumption may be premature.
     
  6. Macross

    Macross Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 25, 1999
    Vader, I disagree with your theories on the Force.
    The Dark Side and Light Side do not physically exist. When the Force is used for evil it is said that the user and the action is of 'The Dark Side of the Force'. Conversly, with the Foce is used for good it is said that the user and the action is of 'The Light Side of the Force'.
    By definition of the term, the 'Dark Side of the Force' *is* evil because without evil, it can't exist.

    The Empire was forged by Palpatine through the Dark Side of the Force. This is substantiated in multiple sources. As I've explained, the Dark Side can not exist without the evil usage of the Force, thus if the Empire is born from and exists by evil, it is evil.
     
  7. Bib Fortuna

    Bib Fortuna Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 1999
    Wow, so I've been duped all along. The Empire was an innocent victim of propoganda? I should have known. Do any Rebels want to defend themselves? If not, then I shall have to approach my friend in shame and admit that he was ... choke...right.
     
  8. the falcon cleaner

    the falcon cleaner Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 26, 1999
    I think the empire is evil because:

    1- they are racist.
    Any imperial bothan or mon calamari pilot or gunner? no, only humans in all their forces.

    2- they are slavers.
    ask general Ackbar, a former slave of moff tarkin.

    3- they shoot first, then ask
    (alderaan, lukeĀ“s uncles, the ambush in mos easly in front of the falcon )

    5- do it or..
    (they blackmail Lando!)

    4- and the most important....
    in the scrolling titles its says: "...By the EVIL galactic empire."
     
  9. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 2, 1999
    First of all, evil is not a christian concept.%99.9 of religions and cultures agree that certain things are wrong, such as murder, rape, slavery, torture, etc.Collectively, these things are reffered to as evil, or whatever the equivilent is in a given language.Evil is a human concept, and it is built into us at a much deper level than any religion is.
    How about this one? The Empire is evil because it overthrew the offically voted in government of the time, and disbanded the galactic senate?The overthrow of a legitimate democracy alone makes it evil, IMO.
    The Empire is evil because it destroyed the Jedi Knights, Alderaan, and Aniken Skywalker as a person(although you could argue that Aniken destroyed himself, it's debatable).
    They are evil because they took planets by force, and destroyed them ecologically, as well as enslaving many alien races, such as the Wookies,the Noghri and the Mon Calamari.They also held to the philosophy that humans were superior to all other species, and that men are superior to women.
    The example of the atomic bomb given by Lieutenant Hija is a rather disgusting one.Just in case you didn't realize, buddy, hundreds of thousands of real people died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.Alderaan is a made up place.And anyway, Japan still exists today.Their culture is still fairly similar to the one they've had for thousands of years.They control their own destiny, with a democratic system(albeit a fairly inefficient one).The Empire didn't give Alderaan a chance to mend their ways.The situation was not even marginally comparable, because at the time of it's destruction, Alderaan may have harboured many rebels, but it hadn't been involved in an all out war for conquest of the galaxy(or the world, it can be said to be the same thing, in this case), over a period of years, and had never actually taken a large number of imperial worlds from the empire by force.
    As for the benefits of Empire building, what kind of a dinosaur are you, mate?The only Empires left standing today are economic ones.All of the colonial powers have given those countries concerned back to their rightful owners...the people who live in them.Some of them may be experiencing difficulty, but then, so did most of the colonial powers, in their formnative years.Thats one of the reasons they had the power to colonize in the first place, and why they are among the strongest nations around today.We realize that just because we are more mature, doesn't allow us to tell them what to do.
    So maybe some of these places are still growing towards peace.They still have a right to control their own destinies, which an Empire denies them.The Republics, both old and new, operated on a system whereby a world could ask to join the republic, or leave, by it's own accord.The Empire wasn't so open.It was join, stay, and don't make any trouble, or be crushed.
    I love Vader's argument about "crack ultra-hi-tech heavy Marines with armoured support can not be defeated by a tribe of furry neolithic midgets supported by a small handful of lightly armed irregulars. It just doesn't happen."
    Ever heard of Afghanistan,or Vietnam, Vader, to name but 2?
    Just for a moment, think of it this way.Think of ewoks not as cute little teddy bear types, but savage hunters , who have excellent camoflage, huge numbers, bow, spear, and axe technology, clear killing grounds, and intricate traps.A being that they believe is God has just told them, to their very faces, that they have to kill the imps, so they're not lacking in motivation.They aslo have a crack team of rebel infiltrators, with modern weapons, and training, and a wookie in an armored assault vehicle.
    Ever seen that movie called "Zulu"? It's based on a true story.It's a fairly similar scenario, except in that case, the Empire wore Red uniforms, not white, and the Zulus didn't have a bunch of trained soldiers with modern weapons to help them.
     
  10. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    The Empire itself wasn't evil, it was a totalitarian government, and held its citizen in an iron grip. It was greedy, selfish, and when challenged...well...Alderaan is one example. Along with the creation of massive destructive weapons such as the Death Star.

    Hija, on top mentioned the similarites of A-Bomb on Japan and Empire destroying Alderaan. The two situations are no way related. Japan was a power-hungry nation conquering other countries in order to expnd for it's own purposes, while Alderaan was a peaceful planet that supported a rebellion that allowed its citizens more freedom and rights.

    Vader, also has brought an interesing point. Stragetically and number-wise, the Empire was the obvious victor. The Imperial forces were overconfident, expecting a easy victory, while the Alliance were desperate. They were fighting for their lives and freedom, not for a monthly pay.I believe Palpatine had also a influence over his soldiers using his powers, and when he was destroyed so was the confidence in his subordinates.

    Frizzle Fry. The Empire (Palpatine) did not overthrow a capitalist government. The Republic led itself to its own downfall by voting for Palpatine as their leader, eventually crumbling to pieces and Palpatine arises as the new leader.
     
  11. Vader

    Vader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Macross, The Sides of the force are not merely denominators for "the Force being put to Good/Evil use", respectively.

    All throughout the Trilogy, the Sides are referred to as distinctive, "real" entities. "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force", says Kenobi; "If you only knew the power of the Dark Side", says Vader; "That place - strong with the Dark Side it is", says Yoda; "How do I know the Light Side from the Dark", asks Luke, to which Yoda answers: "You will know. When you are calm. At ease. Passive"... But you would have it that they are all just referring to the same Force, without intrinsic Sides, just being put to different use? I can't see how that could be.

    No; the way I see it, there is a dichotomy within the Force; two intrinsic, opposed parts - like the Ying and Yang of Eastern religions and philosophies (but as it is a force of nature, perhaps it should rather be compared to other bipolar natural phenomena, such as electricity or magnetism).

    The dualism of the Force is complementary - the two Sides need to exist in balance. Both sides are needed for the ecology of the system as a whole to function.

    This brings me to you, Frizzle Fry. All human cultures throughout the ages have recognized a sense of "right" or "wrong", that much is true. But they have never been able to agree on the content of these two concepts. Many things that are anathema and utter Evil to our present day Western Christian-dominated global culture - including murder, slavery, torture, juvenile sex, suicide... - have not only been all right, but mandated under certain circumstances in some cultures and ages.

    If you asked a thousand people, ten each from ten cultures all around the world from the last ten millennia to define "Good" and "Evil", no-one from the first 7 000 years would understand what you were talking about, and all of the rest would give you different answers.

    "Good" and "Evil" as universal truths are inventions of the judeo-christian tradition (the "Desert Religions"), with emphasis on the Christian part.
    The "eternal battle" as the foundation for a religious value system (along with the concept of monotheism) was first thought of by Zarathustra, in about 600 BCE (Ahura Mazda, "Wise Lord", or God, vs. Anghra Mainyu, "Destructive Spirit", or Satan), and subsequently (unlike monotheism) never really caught on with Judaism. The Judaic sect that was to become the Chistians had adopted the concept with gusto, however.

    The dualism of this kind of religious value system is antagonistic; the two sides exist in constant conflict, each trying to destroy the other. In the mythologies of such religions, one side - the "Good" one, obviously - will ultimately prevail, and the other will cease to have any power.

    And this, the Force cannot be. The dualism of the Force must be complementary.
    Above all, it must be complementary, because it is a force of nature. Nature works with balance, not with conflict. A modernistic, antagonistic-dualist interpretation of the Force is not only ultimately destructive, it also assumes that Nature recognizes moral values, which it doesn't. (If Mother Nature is anything, she's an amoral mother...)


    A government body that's lost its ability to govern efficiently has also lost its legitimacy, no matter how officially and democratically voted it was to begin with. Overthrowing it is not an evil act, but a good one. (And besides - Hitler was voted into power in legitimate, democratic elections. Does that make the cause of the Allies in WWII Evil?)
    And if that same government body at the same had promoted one side of a balanced ecological system at the expense of the other (the Old Republic seems to have been distinctly pro-Light Side, anti-Dark Side), the overthrow becomes not only excusable, but necessary.


    (All that apocryphal EU stuff I ain't even gonna comment...)


    The comparison between the destruction of Hiroshima (and Nagasaki, and Dresden) and the destruction of Alderaan is valid. OK that one event is fictional, the other real, but so what? If we can't allow ourselves to dig into the
     
  12. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Response to Vader:

    The terrorists Reagan fought had a whole entirely different purpose than the Alliance. The Empire used tyrany to control its worlds, which was quite obvious. The terrorist in our worlds fought for hate (neo-nazism), or other selfish purposes. The Alliance devoted themselves to restoring the Republic and end the discrimination against alien species. You rpoint of view is rather narrow-minded.

    True, citizens of Japan were directly involved with the Axis, they were all caught up in the crossfire. But before Nagasaki and Hiroshima were destroyed, U.S. issued a warning period of 10 days or so. The Alderaan situation was entirely different. Tarkin gave no warning for Alderaan to surrender, it was destroyed to be made an example of for the remaining planets in their grip.

    As for Alliance victory seeming unrealistic. In the Ewok/Forest battle. The Ewoks had the advantage of familiarities with the territory. They probably have long ago, set up many traps to keep larger predators away. The Ewoks also had the advantage of surprise too, which can also be essential. Even so, their victory was rather costly. As for the space battle above Endor, Palpatine trusted a very small number of people. He had great influence (like I said above) using his dark side powers. a major disadvantage of ISD's were their obvious shield generator loations. They can easily destroyed by SF attack, and starships can wipe out the rest. The MC80s also had reinforced shields which also gave them a little extra protection.

    The officers were arrogant expecting little resistance, and many were power-hungry and very selfish. True, some were loving parents, and many had doubts if they were serving the right side: one of the main reasons so many defected.
     
  13. Macross

    Macross Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 25, 1999
    Vader:
    "A Jedi's strength flows from the Force"
    "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
    "You must feel the Force around you."
    Yoda doesn't teach Luke to feel only "The Light Side of the Force", he teaches to feel "the Force". This *proves* that a seperate Dark Side and Light Side don't actually exist, there is only the Force and from the Force, the potential for good and evil exist.

    The "Dark Side" and "Light Side" are synonymous with Evil and Good; the 'Evil' Side of the Force, the 'Good' Side of the Force. Evil and Good are *not* actual physical things. Let that sink in a minute Vader. Good and Evil are not physical things, just like the Dark Side and Light Side aren't.

    There is only the Force.
    -When the Force is used for evil it is said that the user and the action is of 'The Dark Side of the Force'.
    -When the Force is used for good it is said that the user and the action is of 'The Light Side of the Force'.

    (Could you please modify your posting style so it pertains more directly to Star Wars?)
     
  14. Vader

    Vader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 1999
    It all depends on your point of view, SSJ2 Gohan; I fear that the narrowmindedness may be your own. Try to imagine how the other party must view himself, and his enemy.

    I am sure that Saddam, Milosevic, Gaddafi, Khomeini, and all those others who have sposnsored international terrorism and/or had reason to feel the wrath of the Western world all feel perfectly justified in viewing the U.S. and the rest of the Western world as "The Great Satan" - a tyrannical, bigoted, imperialistic power vying for world domination, depriving them of their just right to mind their own business.
    They certainly do not feel that their cause is hate-motivated or selfish; rather they see themselves as freedom fighters, rebels - heroes in a fight against the enemy of freedom and humanity.
    Very much like the Rebellion is described in Star Wars.

    Consider this:
    Suppose that any or all of the above parties were to make a series of movies describing their situation and their "fight against Western imperialism" in an epic, semi-mythical format.
    Suppose then that they presented these movies to an audience that has no knowledge whatsoever of the bigger picture - true context, factual circumstances, real events - beyond what can be learned from those movies.
    I can guarantee you that 99% of that audience will emerge fully convinced that the America and Western Europe are the embodiment of "Evil" on Earth.

    It is up to history (which, as we all know, is written by the victor) if a rebel gets to be called a "freedom fighter" or a "terrorist"; "murderer" or "statesman".


    Did the Allies give Dresden "fair warning" before fire-bombing it, along with tens of thousands of civilians, to cinders? No. Nor did they need to.
    Was the bombing of Nagasaki justified? No. Japan was crumbling fast, and was going to surrender anyway. But no shadow needs to fall on the U.S. for deploying that second device anyway.
    Did the U.S. declare war upon Libya before sending the bombers, or give any sort of warning? No. Nor was it necessary.
    And indeed, if the Empire did deploy the Death Star against Alderaan without warning, they were fully within their rights to do so.
    Alderaan was supporting a rebellion against its government. It may have felt justified in doing so - all rebels always feel justified - but such a choice carries a heavy price. Rebels always hope to not need to pay that price, but the risk is always there, and Alderaan got the bill.

    A government is justified to put down armed insurrectionists that threaten law and order, and those that support them - with a heavy hand, if necessary.


    The Ewoks were familiar with the terrain, yes - but the Imperials had been there for a good while (how long does it take to build a Death Star?), and the battle was centered around their own installation, so so were they.

    Traps against predators do little good against hard armour - and definitely no good whatsoever against armoured vehicles. Try the "two swinging redwood trunks"-trick on an M1A2 Abrams tank and see what happens. Consider then that the armour materials of the Empire are infinitely more advanced.

    How can they win, when they have no weapons that have any effect on their enemies?

    The bit about Palpatine acting as some sort of one-man CIC for the battle is just one of those weak rationalizations constructed in an attempt to explain the outcome in the movie. I find the idea too ridiculous for words.

    Check Curtis Saxton's Technical Commentaries at http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes http://www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#globes .
    I do not agree with everything that Saxton has to say - genrally, he relies too much on apocryphal sources - but here, we are in complete agreement.
    You don't build warships with vital systems that exposed, unless you absolutely have to. Since other ships have internal shield generators, so have the Imperial ones.
    And the same goes for the bridge. There is no need to have the bridge in an exposed location, so you don't. And so, a Kamikaze attack will have no effect.

    I would say that in the Imperial Navy, like in any other mili
     
  15. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Vader,

    So you're trying to say is you support Milosevic, Saddam, and others to fight the supposed Western tyrany.

    If the parties you listed were to create a movie series on their fight, they would of course slightly alter it to convince the audience.

    Yes, it was true that there was no need for Nagasaki to be bombed into ruins, though tragedies happen in war. Japan was a conquest toward world domination (at least Asia that is), and often innocents gets in the middle of cross-fire.

    Though the DSII took around 2 years to build, if they were so familiar with the landscape, how come they haven't eliminated every possible threat to their shield generator. Like those hidden logs that destroyed many of the Scout Walkers. How can they win, because it wouldn't be a movie most would enjoy if the Empire did indeed win Endor.

    After all, Star Wars is considered more Fantasy than sci-fi based on one of the periods in ancient Japan (which right now I don't recall), so considering Palpatine using his dark side powers to control his troops is not a weak rationlization.

    And what exactly do you consider apocrypha?


    [This message has been edited by SSJ2 Gohan (edited 06-23-99).]
     
  16. Macross

    Macross Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 25, 1999
    Vader: I don't know how many different ways I can explain this to make you understand, but I'm not big on repeating myself.

    The Dark Side and Light Side are the Force used for evil and good, respectively. Luke feels "The Force", not only the "Light side of the Force". The Force is created by all living things. There are not living things which only create "Light Force", and other living things which create "Dark Force". All living things create the Force and within it, lays the potential for good and evil; Light and Darkness.
    A person has good and evil sides. You can not cut that person in two and identify one side as the evil side and the other side as the good side. Both the potential for good and evil exist within that person.
    The Force has Light and Dark sides. You can not cut the Force in two and identify one side the evil side and the other side as the good side. (This is *exactly* what you are trying to do and it is erroneous.) Both the potential for good and exit exist within the Force, it is up for Force Sensitive creates to tap it and decide whether or not the Force is used for evil or good.
    I can't explain it any better then that (again).


    My posting style is very clear Vader. I talk about Star Wars. Your posts go from Vientam to Saddam, Milosevic, Gaddafi, Khomeini to Allies giving something to Dresden to NATO to Afghanistan to Stinger Missiles to Western Europe etc. I think it's great you like to hear yourself talk, but I personally don't enjoy sifting through all your unrelated/off topic material to get to the portions of your posts relative to Star Wars.

    [This message has been edited by Macross (edited 06-23-99).]
     
  17. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 2, 1999
    Vader, it's fairly obvious you have no idea about reality in Japan in 1999.They do control their own destiny.If they don't, then who does?The emperor wasn't even the real ruler of Japan in the 30s and 40s, it was the military.The main thing he was stripped of, in 1945, was his self proclaimed God hood.
    The main reason their democracy doesn't work, is that they refuse to vote new parties in, who will actually get things done.They don't take orders from other countries.
    As for your dismissal of what I said about Hiroshimka, or Nagasaki, well, you miss the point entirely.Those places still exist.They still have Japanese people living in them.Alderaan is gone.The only thing left is a lot of rocks.
    As for your convenient packaging of the concept of evil into a purely judeao-christian frame, how simplistic can you get?
    It's not only your "desert religions" that have concepts of right and wrong.The majority of cultures look upon murder, rape and theft as wrong.to say that the concepts of evil, and wrong, are vastly different, is
    splitting hairs.
    You also try to get us to believe that the fights in Vietnam and Afghanistan were fought between sides with equal equipent.What a joke.The Viet cong had very little heavy weaponry, no artillery, no air support, no helicopters to get them to where they wanted to go, not much medicine, an extreme lack of what we would regard as basic equipment, such as boots, helmets, etc.They had extremely poor communications equipment.No tanks, jeeps or trucks to speak of.
    Ditto the Mujahadeen.You think the only thing that won them that war was a bunch of hand held SAMs?sure, they helped, but to say they had the same gear as their Soviet enemy, is simply hogwash.
    What do both of these guerilla armies have most in common?A belief in what they were doing.They were fighting for their homes, their god/beliefs, and against a foreign "devil".So did the ewoks.
    .
    The question about Hitler.Hitler won an election in 1933.His National Socialist Party was the legitimate government at the time.The only reason that there was an "Allied" side, was that he started the type of expansionist and aggresive activities that we all know him for.Do you think, that if Germany hadn't invaded any other countries, that the other great powers would have fought Germany? Not on your life.
    Stalin signed an non agression pact.Chamberlain appeased.America wouldn't even come into the war, until it was actually attacked.Hitler could have killed every Jew, Gipsy,mentally ill person and Homosexual in Germany, and not one nation would have fired a single bullet at him.
    I also couldn't disagree more with your sentiment that it's ok to overthrow legitmate democracies, if they lose the ability to govern with efficiency.Who is any military power, to tell the people that they can't decide for themselves who they will be governed by?Your excuse is one used by tyrants and dictators the world over.By your own rational, the old republic would have had every right to tyranize and crush anyone who wanted out of their republic.They would have been justified in destroying any world they suspected of supporting the future empire.Just because they were more civilized than that, the empire is right, because it won, right?Maybe you should move to China, dude.Your ideas would fit right in with their leadership, at the moment.
     
  18. Vader

    Vader Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 1999
    It seems that none of you have read what I've written very carefully. Perhaps my posts are too long?


    No SSJ2 Gohan, I do not support those parties.
    I compare them to the Rebellion in Star Wars, and the Western world to the Empire - which I do support.
    I really thought that was clear.

    And yes, indeed they would alter the story to illustrate their point of view, and to make people support their agenda.
    And that's why I maintain that Star Wars is "propagandistic" - that the story has been subjected to exactly such an alteration in order to make the Rebellion seem heroes and the Empire villains.
    It has all the trappings of such "altered" stories - for instance, the heroes being the only characters with any real depth; the villains are cardboard figures. For an entirely fictional story, this is very interesting.

    Indeed, it does seem strange that the Imperials hadn't cleared the grounds ... downright illogical, actually.
    So who's to say that they hadn't in fact done so (if we postulate an altered story)? That would make more sense, wouldn't it? And I maintain that that is, indeed, the case.

    The way the story had been set up - with the Empire as Nazis - the Rebellion trimphing was, indeed, the only possible end acceptable to the general public - just like the Moslim world triumphing over the Evil West would be the only acceptable end to a movie made by Khomeini.
    But a story told from the POV of the Empire could end differently, and then that end would be the only acceptable one.

    In Star Wars, according to stated Lucasfilm policy, Canon constitutes the movies, the movie novelizations, and the radio plays based on the movies, period.
    Everything else - including all other novels, all WEG products, all technical manuals, all of the EU, everything, is considered apocryphal, as it doesn't come directly from Lucas' own mind.


    Macross, I understand what you're saying - I just don't agree. -Is the Dark Side stronger?
    -No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive.If it were as you say, what would that conversation be about?

    As I see it, "Good" and "Evil" do not exist as objective realities. Therefore, the Dark and Light Sides of the Force can have nothing to do with them (and nor do people have "Good" or "Evil" sides to them, in any objective sense).

    Rather, if seems likely to me that the different Sides respond to different states of mind or emotion; or different energy levels.
    Thus, the Light Side would respond most readily to passive, introverted, dispassionate emotions and states of mind, while the Dark Side would most easily respond to active, extroverted, passionate ones.

    This way, it would indeed make anger, fear, and agression feelings of the Dark Side, while emptying your mind of questions would open you to the Light Side.
    It also does away with the obviously illogical matter that justifiable human emotions, like anger (at an injustice, say), would automatically make a person "Evil".

    It would also mean the a mother protecting her children from terrible danger would find the Dark Side more responsive, while a totally emotionless homicidal maniac would find more power from the Light Side.

    Of course there are grey areas. That's life.
    But "Good" and "Evil" exist only in the eye of the beholder.


    If you find the forays I make into real life in order to provide background and to make parallels to clarify my points "unrelated" and "off topic", and find yourself necessitated to "sift through" it... well, I apologise, but I have no intention of changing that.


    Frizzle Fry, it is true that in the post-Cold War era, Japan has been given more and more say in matters of their own defence etc, but they are (if I'm not mistaken) still bound by some of the peace treaties with the U.S..
    And please inform me what, according to the democratic principles that you defend so vehemently, gives a nation the right to force another nation to change its religion as a condition for not continuling annihiliating their cities wholesale?
    By the way, I can't recall that Emperor Hirohito had declared himself a God. Rather, I seem to recall that the Godsh
     
  19. Grover the Hutt

    Grover the Hutt Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 1999
    All I have to say is... Why did the empire feel it neccessary to build a planet detroying Death Star if they didn't intend to use it for that purpose? Is this evil... umm.. i think yes!

    I don't think normal "non-evil" empires go around threatening and killing people to get control. How could the empire not be evil.

     
  20. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Vader,

    I know perfectly well how the four levels of Canon and officiality fit together. I just wanted to see if you thought all other material besides anything from Lucas's vision to be considered apocryphal, and you obviously think the novels, comics, some games, are not part of the official continuity. Well, that is wrong. Lucas feel no obligation to include any of the novel or comic events in his movie, and he can run over them if he chooses, but they are nonetheless apart of the official continuity excluding some for instance msot of the marvel series and the Trioculus Saga.
     
  21. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Ignore this.

    [This message has been edited by SSJ2 Gohan (edited 06-24-99).]
     
  22. Adm. Hecate

    Adm. Hecate Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 1999
    Grover, (cute name, BTW ), building a weapon does not imply ipso facto the intent to use it. I'd like to hope the US never intended to unleash its entire nuclear arsenal during the cold war. Intimidation is a powerful tool--the most effective war is one in which the enemy surrenders without fighting.

    Vader, excellent post. An entertaining read as usual.
     
  23. Frizzle Fry

    Frizzle Fry Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 2, 1999
    Touche, Vader. I think we may actually be a lot closer philosophically than it would first appear.I do disagree with you on certain specifics, though.
    On Hiroshima, those cities were destroyed, but not "wiped off the face of the earth", as you put it.There were survivors.Those places do exist now, even if they have been rebuilt.And rebuilt they were, with allied money and manpower, in part.This is fundamentally where your comparision of Alderaan/Japan falls apart.Alderaan is gone.There were no survivors.The Empire, even if it wanted to, couldn't have put it back together.Hiroshima lives on.Japan was a country in open, protracted warfare with the allies.Alderaan was not.The degree of punishment in the SW case doesn't fit the crime.
    I also really think you should re-evaluate your position on Japan today.They may rely on the US for defence, but so does Australia, and we don't take orders from the US either.Japan's democracy may have problems, but Japanese people elect who they want to govern.Not the US.At the momnet, the Japanese Self Defense Force is undergoing transformations, that will make it less a Self defense" oriented army, and more like a regular one.If that isn't proof that they control their own destiny, I don't know what is.
    I don't really understand this line "And please inform me what, according to the democratic principles that you defend so vehemently, gives a nation the right to force another nation to change its religion as a condition for not continuling annihiliating their cities wholesale?"
    is this maybe about the Emperor, and his "god-hood"? The only reason I used the words "self proclaimed", was that it was a condition of surrender that he(Hirohito), renounce his claim to being a god.I don't think this can really be classified as making Japan change it's religion.I doubt more nukes would have been dropped, if they had surrenedered, but he refused to drop the god bit.

    On the question of the Third Reich, the situations are fairly different.In one, we are talking about citizens of the empire, trying to bring it down from within, and restore the legitimate government that the empire deposed.In the other, we are talking about other foreign powers, taking down Germany, from without, after they took over Europe.You will also notice that they gave the Germans their country back, as well.The Empire had no such intention, of restoring the OR, or even restoring the democratic ideals that the Republic was based on.
    About judeau-christian belief systems.Maybe, because I don't believe in religion, and hold deep resentment against the christian religion I was bought up in, I am too biased to speak about this objectively.Sufficed to say, that when implied that my concepts of good and evil come from them, it raises my hackles(even though it's probably true).I don't buy into such a simplistic view of the world, where absolutes such as good and evil reign supreme.I'm sure you don't either.
    On Indo-china, sure, the NVA has some of the gear you are talking about, but really, you can't compare the resources of both sides.History tells us that the North Vietnamese Army got pounded in the air war, and that their heavy gear was only used up near the border.To say the fight was fought with equal weapons is just untrue.The stuff they did have was technologically inferior to the American weapons, anyway, and was certainly less numerous.how many Viet Cong or NVA groups could get into trouble, and just call back to base, for artillery, close air support, and reinforcements?The Americans, South vietnamese, Australians, Kiwis, and Koreans, could ask for and get this type of help, at almost any time.
     
  24. Grover the Hutt

    Grover the Hutt Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 1999
    Adm. Hecate: Thanks.... But anyhow... not only did the Empire build this weapon of mass destruction, but they also used it needlessly to blow up Alderan! Alderan was never a threat to them! Obviously the sole intenion behind doing this was to flex some Imperial muscle, but can you really say that this was a "called for" tactic? (this was evil)
     
  25. Emperor Palpatine

    Emperor Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Vader:

    OK, to debate the point brought up that one reason the Empire isn't evil is because it didn't bother the Ewoks. I say why bother the Ewoks? There this primitive race of creatures that live in the trees and dont do anything, thats like us humans moving onto a planet and start killing lifeforms more primitive than us, it just doesnt make sense. But suppose its a colony of humans who dont like the Empire. They dont go up to a stormtrooper and say We dont like the Empire but its easy to figure out. The humans aren't agreesive they dont go near the shield generator they just dont like the Empire. Now from the Empire you saw in the Trilogy, do you think they would have done nothing? No, the Empire might not have killed them but they would definitly have bothered them, maybe even harmed them. Put this situation to Alderaan. The Death Star came into orbit around Alderaan, we dont know how long they are there because we dont know when the DS hypers into the system. Anyway did Alderaan attack the DS, did they put up a shield generator, fire Ion Cannons? No they stood there. Had the Alderaan you had talked about been there they most likely would have attacked. But the Empire thinks that the planet supports the Rebellion so it destroys it. But, do they have 100% proof that the planet supports the Rebellion? They know Princess Leia is a rebel, and that shes on her way with plans to ? they didn't know it was Alderaan they figured she was going to the Alliance headquaters. So as I was saying The Empire and Alderaan were for about a minute in peacefull co-existence. Tarkin ask gives Leia an ultimatum, tell us where the Rebel base is our we will destroy Alderaan. Leia, wants peace so she tells the, Dantooine, an Alliance base. Now suppose this was the upstart rebellion the was starting an uprising agaisnt the poor Empire that got the bad rap. Would Leia have told them Dantooine? No she would have spit in his face and told him nothing. Anyway Tarkin thought that Dantooine WAS the Rebel base. So the agreement was cleared. Leia did what Tarkin told her. But.... Tarkin destroyed Alderaan just to make an effective demonstration to make the galaxy fear the Empire and stay controled. Now I'm sure that the Empire could have made a demonstration just as effective without destroying an entire planet. So the entent wasn't to wipe out the planet because they thought they simpathized with the Rebels, that isn't even implied in ANH, the intent was to terrorize the galaxy to stay under Imp. power. And anybodys book terrorism IS evil.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.