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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

How Is The Empire Evil?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Bib Fortuna, Jun 19, 1999.

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  1. SarlaccSurvivor

    SarlaccSurvivor Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 2, 2005
    OK, maybe Luke did hate the Empire, and maybe MLK hated the segregationists. Pretty much everyone hates something. But if you never show your hate and anger, like Luke and MLK and Gandhi, how is that evil?

    And have you seen ROTS? If you haven't, you should, it's way better than TPM and AOTC. Anyway, the Younglings were Jedi padawans, probably 8 or 9 years old on average, who were slaughtered by pre-suit Vader on Palpatine's orders.
     
  2. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    I think the Empire is evil because they can just blow up your planet to make a statement to political prisoners...that's not very cool. Also they have Sith lords which I always thought were the bad guys...that's how I know they are evil.
     
  3. LostMyself

    LostMyself Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    'They practice capital punishment as well as torture with no courtcase at all.' - Well, thank you.. i think ive heard such things happening during my time too

    'Oh I don't know - freedom of expression, the right to have a say in who governs you, the right to feel safe from having your planet blown up to make a point, that type of thing.' - i dont see any infringement of freedom of expression. democracy is not a human right. the empire were in war, i dont call USA evil just because they have killed civilians.

    'I didn't say dictatorship was necessarily evil. I think most people participating in this discussion would probably prefer a degree of choice in things, but I could be wrong.' - i agree, it can be evil, but its not defined as.

    i see the jedi as a self rightous fanatic sect-like elite with no raison d'etre, and i believe that Palpatine was well informed of the horrors that would have waged over the galaxy if they were to be around with a sith leader. he could have prosecuted them, but the cost in humanlife would have been big.

    'The Empire is surrounded with a vast number (not a minority as you call it) of other species that are qualified to do those jobs as well.' - well, its my ot acting up again. The core worlds are mostly inhabitated by humans (and almost every alien is a humanoid). compare with the rebellion if you like

    'Against evil? Yes, possibly.' - good

    'I think things run pretty smoothly in the Old Republic as well.' - well, i guess your a fan of incompitence ignorance and bureaucracy. i must say i prefer justice, safety, law and order

    'In what way did Palpy trick people into doing good things?'- what i meant was he tricked people to expose the lack of moral and incopitance of the old republic... all the bad guys were getting by with no one to stop them. well, palpy stopped them!

    'ut if you never show your hate and anger, like Luke and MLK and Gandhi, how is that evil?' - um is this meant to mean im only evil if i show my emotions? :) oh sorry [face_plain]

    'Anyway, the Younglings were Jedi padawans, probably 8 or 9 years old on average, who were slaughtered by pre-suit Vader on Palpatine's orders.'- thanks really, but i think ill watch battle beyond the stars instead. well, here you have a point! (incidently this is also a point why thou shall never make a prequel triology 20 years after a good triology)

    'to make a statement to political prisoners' - must have missed that, or is it in the new old triology?
     
  4. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 11, 2005
    They also had Grand Moff Tarkin who was really scary looking...if they're scary they must be evil right?
     
  5. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    I don't see any infringement of freedom of expression.

    I thought that was why the rebels were running away all the time ... if they got caught they'd be punished for opposing the Empire.


    I must say I prefer justice, law and order and safety.

    I don't think Alderaan was treated very justly and it didn't turn out to be all that safe either.
     
  6. Warsie

    Warsie Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2005
    This doesn't neccessarily support my opinion, but

    1. 95% of alderaan' population supported the Rebels

    The CIS (mainly non-humans) rebelled against the Republic and killed quintillions of humans inthe process, would you trust them again?

    see #1

    the Imperial Senate existed, and by the Battle of Hoth it was back in power based on AMrvel Star Wars

    Yes they did, inthe Core Worlds, Inner Rim and Colonies regions. The reason you don't hear much dissent is that they are happy with the current system.

    THe Imperial Navy's purpose is to protect shipping, rescue people, deal with pirates, basically keep Society safe

    Yet very efficent, and it got things done, took action, etc. Also, the Old Republic is muc hmore corrupt compared to the Empire by TPM

    Of Rebel Terrorists, who will harm civilians and bomb train stations (galacticempiredatabank, "Rebel Propgaanda and Lies lists all the Rebel Propaganda)

    In the end, it was good. The Galaxy was better under his rule, much batter than the corruption, etc.

    He said that "Evil is merely a perspective, a point of view" In ROTS, he admits that Evil is a point of view
     
  7. SarlaccSurvivor

    SarlaccSurvivor Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 2, 2005
    95% of Alderaan's population supported the Rebels? Where did you get that number?

    So the Empire supports civil liberties in some systems but not in others? First of all, source? Second of all, how is sectional favoritism a sign of a just government? Third, a lack of dissent doesn't necessarily mean people are happy with the system. It could be, as it was during Saddam Hussein's reign in Iraq, that people are too scared to do anything.

    When do the rebel "terrorists" ever harm civilians or bomb train stations?

    Also, remember that the Empire murdered their own officers when they failed, and they systematically murdered all the Jedi in ROTS, most of whom had nothing to do with the Council's attempts to arrest Palpatine.

    And how was the Galaxy better under the Empire than it was under the Republic? I'd take a corrupt democracy over a murderous warmongering dictator any day. And yes, Palpatine did start the Clone Wars for the sole purpose of strengthening his power base.


     
  8. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004



    Bang on.
     
  9. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    If you watch ANH you will realize why they are evil. They only serve themselves and care nothing of the people. "Fear will keep them in check"... not a statement of someone doing good. It's the same thing the Romans were doing in their days of glory - either you join us, or you die. A democracy accepts diversity and difference in opinions - an Empire does not. Either you agree with the sole ruler, or you die...

    To steal away somones ability to speak up by imposing fear is evil - and that is what the Empire relied on. Had it not worked, not even Palpatine and Vader joined could have survived...
     
  10. ATAT_Maniac

    ATAT_Maniac Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Ok... This is my opinion on the empire.

    The Empire is not exactly as evil as they seem.
    Any power crazed Emperor or leader leading a certain faction will have an 'Aggressive negotiations' to get to his/her goal. In the event of Destroying Planet Alderaan, The General has already known that the princess is a member of the rebel alliance because of her knowledge of the whereabouts of the rebel base on Yavin. In order to 'guarantee' that there is no rebel outbreak on Alderaan, the planet was destroyed.

    The empire has been able to keep the galaxy in order with fear and respect. There is but a few who have rejected the empire and they paid for it. For example in 'Star Wars - Battlefront 2' where the 501st; 'Vader?s fist' was sent to 'adjust' the planet Naboo's government after Queen Apailana opposed the empire's directives. Another example is when the Kaminoans on the Planet Kamino released an 'aberrant batch of mutinous troopers' to rise against the empire. But eventually, the clone troopers were defeated and the Kaminoans was silenced.

    On the fanfilm 'Troops' on theforce.net fanfilms itself, the documentary showed that the imperial stormtroopers 'solved' some of local problems on the Planet Tatooine and I.M.P.S -
    The Relentless (www.impstherelentlees.com) tells us how the imperial's best handles the situation.

    Overall, the Empire is not really that evil for they too care about the galaxy and to prevent a rebellion outbreak, some things have to be sacrificed in order to bring order and justice to the galaxy.
     
  11. LostMyself

    LostMyself Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    'And yes, Palpatine did start the Clone Wars for the sole purpose of strengthening his power base.' - Well, i guess you have some insideinfo then.

    '"Fear will keep them in check"... not a statement of someone doing good.' - this is the foundation of the law and punishment system, maybe evil to you, not to me.

    'When do the rebel "terrorists" ever harm civilians or bomb train stations?' - there is alot about the rebells left out in the movies, but i say we dont know if they did or if they didnt

    'Also, remember that the Empire murdered their own officers when they failed,' - bad things happens in war

    'I'd take a corrupt democracy over a murderous warmongering dictator any day.' -point of view then right?
     
  12. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Are you serious? You must have a very twisted view on what is right and what is wrong. All of what you mentioned were means to oppress and subjugate a people in need of freedom. How would you like it if all of your desires of freedom, free will and free thinking were oppressed by someone so powerhungry that they will not allow people to act any other than an automatom?

    You just listed all the things that make the empire evil, and still doesn't feel it's evil - alarming I think[face_thinking]
     
  13. WEEBACCA

    WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2004
    So the fact that this has happened in our world as well makes it not evil? Are you under the impression that all things happening in real life is good? I that case I envy your optimism. ;)

    You may not define dictatorships as evil, but I think the majority of us do.

    The cost of human life does not seem to be Palpy's greatest concern. He started a galactic civil war in order to get himself a dictatorship, later he blew up an entire planet full of innocent civilians.

    The core worlds were very much inhabitet by aliens in the PT. The fact that there are (according to you) none around by the OT only indicates the Empire has killed them, put them in concentration camps or something else, while the Rebellion has many aliens (The Mon Calmarians seems to be one of the majorities in ROTJ).

    I don't see where the justice is (capital punishment witout courtcase anyone?) nor where the safety is (Aalderaan blown up killing million of civilians who probably felt safe) and the law and order is not shown at all.

    No, the bad guys around (the Separatist for instance) were created by Palpy himself before he stopped them. He created the bad guys in order to trick the people into making him a leader and is therefore a bad guy himself.


     
  14. ATAT_Maniac

    ATAT_Maniac Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Well, You can't really say all the empires that existed in the real days are all evil. They are all the same, ruled by a sole leader and draining out the economy of the countries the empire captures. Without The Roman Empire, we will have less technological advancement. The Empire in Episode 4,5,6 is very very mush better than the siths back then after the first Mandalorian war, the siths defeated the Mandalorians and then turned against the republic. The empire wants the galaxy, not destroy it.
     
  15. LostMyself

    LostMyself Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    'So the fact that this has happened in our world as well makes it not evil? Are you under the impression that all things happening in real life is good? I that case I envy your optimism.' - no, but it would make the american administration evil

    'You may not define dictatorships as evil, but I think the majority of us do.' - i must say, thats your loss

    'The cost of human life does not seem to be Palpy's greatest concern. He started a galactic civil war in order to get himself a dictatorship, later he blew up an entire planet full of innocent civilians.' - if palpy didnt care about the people he wouldnt care for creating the administration that he did, the empire then would have been nothing more than a horde (cmp the mongolian horde)

    'The core worlds were very much inhabitet by aliens in the PT.' - reference please (i know i didnt post one, but it was from classic eu).

    'No, the bad guys around (the Separatist for instance) were created by Palpy himself before he stopped them. He created the bad guys in order to trick the people into making him a leader and is therefore a bad guy himself.' - reference please

    'freedom'- this little buzzword. it can mean almost what ever you want and can be used for what ever side you are on. Where is it stated that the empire denied freedom of speech?

    i think atat maniacs point is: can you really be evil if you really do what you think is best for the (beings of the) galaxy (and not for personal gain, mind you)?
     
  16. WEEBACCA

    WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2004
    Last time I checked the US adm. did not use capital punishment without a courtcase, and they did not blow up planets to get to a few terrorists (think Afghanistan).

    Is it my loss that I and the majority defines dictatorships as evil? Give me one example of a dictatorship that has not been evil.

    He did not want to be a horde. He wanted to rule a galactic empire and that's impossible without an administration to supress the people and keeps them from rebelling.

    You want reference? Watch the Prequels. Look at all the aliens on Coruscant.

    Reference? Watch the prequels! The separatists and the war was created by Palpy in order to make himself dictator.

     
  17. LostMyself

    LostMyself Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2002
    i refered to torture and lack of courtcase.

    'Give me one example of a dictatorship that has not been evil.' - all kingdoms in europe

    'Look at all the aliens on Coruscant.'- they are ambassadoers, right, or republic adminpersonal, not native populance. there is some eu reference (stolen from Asimovs Foundation btw) to the question: why are humans so common in the galaxy?, but lets say its unclear then (i must say, this discussion was alot more intresting before the pt :D )

    'Reference? Watch the prequels! The separatists and the war was created by Palpy in order to make himself dictator.' - right, now i'm with you. well it wasnt those bad guys i meant, i meant corrupt people in the administration, i meant self rightous jedis, i meant the corporations exploiting the lack of order for their own personal gain and on the cost of the little people.
     
  18. WEEBACCA

    WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2004
    All kingdoms in Europe? The kings in Europe has no power today, and in the old times they were evil yes, because they kept people from having basic human rights (poor people were basically worthless, education only offered to the privileged, torture etc.).
    And even if you could say that not all kingdoms of old were truly evil, it's also clear that it is a form of government that does not benefit the people, like a democracy does.

    Surely they are not all ambassadors. Take a look at the nightclubs and the streets on the lower levels, Dex'diner etc. It's crawling with aliens. Even if humans are the original inhabitants of Coruscant it's clear that it's been the home for alien species for quite some time.

    And with the Empire that is replaced with an Imperial power elite (officers and bureaucrats) that have every opportunity to abuse their power without getting away with it.
    The Empire suppresses the little people and gets away with it because there's no one the little people can go complaining to.
     
  19. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    We would be nowhere at our current medical technology had it not been for the German's exploits of Jews during WWII. They transplanted organs on live conscious Jews to understand pain and the workings of things. They put Jews into cold water to see how long they could survive, and many more horrific things. Should we be glad today that they did this, so that others may not die? NO! We should still be abhorred by what they did. It was inhumane and beastlike!

    The Empire wants the galaxy to their own liking, much like Hitler wanted Europe for his own liking, or how the Roman Empire wanted the world for their own liking. The people that were subordinated did not want to live like that? That was why perpetual "civil-war" was raging. That is why the Chetnian Guerilla is still fighting Russia - they will not stand for oppression. Who is right I guess depends on your POV in every case, but to dismiss totalitarian regimes as Evil is ignorant!

    All kingdoms in Europe? The kings in Europe has no power today, and in the old times they were evil yes, because they kept people from having basic human rights (poor people were basically worthless, education only offered to the privileged, torture etc.).
    And even if you could say that not all kingdoms of old were truly evil, it's also clear that it is a form of government that does not benefit the people, like a democracy does.


    Yes Webacca, I think we can both agree that at least our Norwegian King has no power at all;) As it goes with all kings in Europe. I agree very much with your posts. A functioning monarchy is not very different from a totalitarian regime - and history has shown that most of them were quite unjust - it served those who gave them more power....
     
  20. Bripe_Klmun

    Bripe_Klmun Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2005
    The popular approach to this subject, people cannot say what evil is but they know it when they see it. This is an admission that evil is felt rather than recognised, with the nature of an event decided by emotion rather than reason.

    Defining Good and Evil is not a simple task, and getting it wrong means either punishing the good or rewarding the evil, both furthering evil. As humanity is only effective as a group, the judgement of good or evil must be the recognition of what is good and what is bad for the group. So, we can say that:

    * Good is that which improves the community.
    * Evil is that which weakens the community.

    But knowing which is which is a difficult task and can only be resolved by wisdom.

    The ability to decide what is good and what is evil is the function of an understanding. The better the understanding, the greater its ability to recognise right from wrong, and the more wise it is. So wisdom, in my opinion, can be defined as the ability to distinguish good from evil.

    If you look at the oppression, genocide, censorship, and other moral defecits of the Empire, and fail to see the evil, I fail to see your wisdom. Seriously, people.

    And for those using not only the Bush administration as reference, but today's events in general, I feel it appropriate to end with this quote:

     
  21. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    I agree very much with your post. There is also a problem with wisdom, however. There are wise people on both sides. I'm certain there were wise men amongst the free men of the Roman Empire. Yet, they were partially responsible for the oppression led by the regime - wise men should act accordingly to their wisdom. I'm convinced that Plato was a wise man, much wiser than I could ever hope to be. Yet, he had sex with young boys - something which is condemned in our society. It all boils down to the rise and fall of discourses, as Foucault so eloquently put it. What is right for one time in history, may easily be wrong at another.

    The problem is that much depends on your point of view. Hitler was convinced he was doing good. A work of a mad-man for sure. However, he did what he did for what he thought would benefit his "race".
    The Roman Empire, under the lead of certain Ceasars, wanted to spread civilization - thus doing good to the world.
    In both instances we see they were wrong. They were imposing their ideas on a people who didn't want their ideals - or didn't appreciate the genocide of a "race". Although many people today view the war against Iraq as wrong, simply because you cannot force people to do things your way, even if you are "convinced" your way is the right way.

    The Emperor was convinced the Jedi were weak because of their compassion and the care of others. It makes you wonder how Palpatine thought he could rule a people without compassion and the care for those he ruled, or rather oppressed? A wise man would sense that focusing inward on yourself is not going to make you popular with the people.

    Ultimately, it makes me wonder what he wanted to rule, and for what reasons? He was not interested in the people. He was not interested in the Republic, since one of his goals, as we learn in ANH, was to destroy what remnants were left of the old republic...

    Edit: this was my post 1000, so please agree with me:D
     
  22. vaders_cape

    vaders_cape Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Congrats on the 1000th post, Rossa83! Blimey I've got a long way to go....:_| You make some interesting points about evil and motive, and that's a corker of a topic not to mention a hot potato. Whilst I won't attempt to go into that one lest I write volumes, I will make one brief point:

    any group that seeks to oppress or suppress any individual, either with the threat of murder or with losing your job, just becuase you see or do things differently to whoever is in authority (within the bounds of humane behaviour) are a shower of bastards, as far as I'm concerned.

    A dictatorship is not necessarily evil in itself - afterall I'd make a perfectly lovely master of the universe! [face_dancing]
    Democracy can be just as rotten with Big Business ruling behind the scenes conning the mob into thinking it has a voice (I think I've just described the USA....).;)

    But given the choice of Palpatine as an elected leader I could vote out or Palpatine as a dictator I would have to wage a geurilla war against to get out, I'd go for the crappy, corupt democracy - I ain't that good with a lightsabre! :D

     
  23. LostMyself

    LostMyself Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 12, 2002
    'and in the old times they were evil yes, because they kept people from having basic human rights (poor people were basically worthless, education only offered to the privileged, torture etc.).' - the same goes for the democratic world today. rich people stomp down the poor. the western world keeps the second and third world down by taxbarricades. blame democracy if you want, blame the kings if you want, this is not evil, its the evolution of the society. Was Napoleon evil?

    'The Empire suppresses the little people and gets away with it because there's no one the little people can go complaining to.' - lol. so if the empire had a complaintsdepartment (lets say a senate) then it would be ok?

    'how the Roman Empire wanted the world for their own liking. The people that were subordinated did not want to live like that? That was why perpetual "civil-war" was raging. That is why the Chetnian Guerilla is still fighting Russia - they will not stand for oppression. Who is right I guess depends on your POV in every case, but to dismiss totalitarian regimes as Evil is ignorant!' - excellent! i think the roman empire was a good thing, they brought with them self codes of law (even if not efficiently implemented, something we still have some problems with), even if slavery is a nasty business

    i dont think the holocaustresearch really gave us that much, but i agree, technical improvements does not legetime a regime

    'They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.' - eh, this is an opinion agaisnt bush?

    'Ultimately, it makes me wonder what he wanted to rule, and for what reasons?' - thanx, this is one of my points.

    the point about roman invasion vs. iraq invasion is nice too, since inaction also is an action (lets say that the allies during ww2 never declared war, since they didnt want to enforce their own ideals on nazigermany) and maybe sometimes youll have to defend your own ideals (this is actually what nazigermany, japan and italy were doing). this implys relative good and evil which to me is silly

    'But given the choice of Palpatine as an elected leader I could vote out or Palpatine as a dictator I would have to wage a geurilla war against to get out, I'd go for the crappy, corupt democracy - I ain't that good with a lightsabre! ' - sure, but is he evil?
     
  24. vaders_cape

    vaders_cape Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Yes he is evil. Everyone was expendable to Palpatine as he pursued personal ambition - as Anakin did for that matter.

    How about this curly one, good people:
    Is good and evil a black and white issue, or are they on a continuum or relative scale?
    And if they are on a continuum, then are evil acts committed out of personal ambition worse than evil acts committed out of a deluded belief that one is doing good for one's community, a sort of warped altruism?

    Hmmmmmm............[face_thinking]
     
  25. BobaFett_v2

    BobaFett_v2 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2005
    wth!?!?

    palpatine is a sith of course he is evil

    last i checked the jedi didnt go around stabbing each other in the back for supremacy

    sure the republic became misguided by ep 3 and had to be set right by the sith but in the classic trilogy the empire has evil intentions..

    i dont think u HAD to be evil to be in the empire..look at biggs...luke also wanted to join

    but in essence they were communists

    and that worked didnt it?

    the empire didnt start out evil persay but they were being led around like a bunch of gits by a sith lord

    not all the nazis were jew hating jerks..but they were loyal to hitler..so go figure
     
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