How is the story bad?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by sdj, Mar 22, 2003.

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  1. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "So you don't think any one ever thought about what happened before the OT? There are many people who thought about it."

    Yes they thought about it, thats the whole point. The OT gives you enough info that you can fill in the rest.
  2. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Yes they thought about it, thats the whole point. The OT gives you enough info that you can fill in the rest.

    No not that much info. Again there are people that thought about it and really wanted to know what happened before the OT.
  3. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    When Obi Wan said "turned to evil", I think we could consider how that happened. Some inquiring minds may want to know. Then when we find Vader is Luke's father, we may need to know what went wrong. Finally when Luke forgives his father, I think we should know how could he and how we can relate to it.
  4. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "No not that much info. Again there are people that thought about it and really wanted to know what happened before the OT."

    Yes, and while these things are all interesting, none of them are essential to understand the OT. The info we need is all in the OT, anything else, interesting or not is extra.

    "When Obi Wan said "turned to evil", I think we could consider how that happened. Some inquiring minds may want to know. Then when we find Vader is Luke's father, we may need to know what went wrong. Finally when Luke forgives his father, I think we should know how could he and how we can relate to it."

    I dunno, personally I think thats all in there. Like I said before, whatever questions you have about Anakin, you need only to look at Luke. Ben failed to teach Anakin as well as Yoda trained Luke, he wasn't as resistent to the temptations of the darkside.
  5. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    The PT is not necessary, but it adds a whole lot of depth to the OT. In my last viewing of ROTJ, I nearly started to come to tears with Yoda's "The last of the Jedi will you be." Before the PT, the only Jedi I knew were Obiwan and Yoda, so it didn't seem that monumental. I never really cared about it. But now, thinking of all those Jedi that protected the galaxy just 40 years earlier, and how Luke is the only one left, gives that line a huge impact.

    And don't even get me started on Vader's redemption. ;)

    EDIT: Great link, ReeYees. I was beginning to lose hope in you. :p

    Cometgreen
  6. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    The info we need is all in the OT, anything else, interesting or not is extra.

    Ok I have said this before I will say it again. When you are giving your opinion give itfor yourself. Please don't talk for me.

    It's not we. It's you. You may feel that there did not need to be a PT. But I do.

    In my last viewing of ROTJ, I nearly started to come to tears with Yoda's "The last of the Jedi will you be." Before the PT, the only Jedi I knew were Obiwan and Yoda, so it didn't seem that monumental. I never really cared about it. But now, thinking of all those Jedi that protected the galaxy just 40 years earlier, and how Luke is the only one left, gives that line a huge impact.

    And don't even get me started on Vader's redemption.


    That's what the PT has done for me.
  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Ok I have said this before I will say it again. When you are giving your opinion give itfor yourself. Please don't talk for me.

    It's not we. It's you."

    Who else's opinion would I be giving????? You can assume its mine, I'm not going to bracket every sentence with 'IMHO'


    "You may feel that there did not need to be a PT. But I do."

    So you found the OT confusing and hard to understand until you saw the PT? The OT didn't make sense until you saw the PT? Is that what your saying?
  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    So you found the OT confusing and hard to understand until you saw the PT? The OT didn't make sense until you saw the PT? Is that what your saying?

    I never said that and don't even try to make it seem like I said that.

    I said I have always wanted to know where and ho Vader became what he is in the OT. I wanted to know what I came before. The PT made the OT ten times better. It add things to the OT for me that I never really knew were there.

    It made sense such as Vader telling Luke he is his father more powerful. It made the duel between Vader and Obi-wan more powerful, and many more thing more powerful then they ever were.

    Who else's opinion would I be giving????? You can assume its mine, I'm not going to bracket every sentence with 'IMHO'

    Then stop saying 'we' because the word we means more then one person. Ever time I see some one use the word we I have to ask myself who are they talking for. Because it's not me they are taking for.

    If you will noctied in this post I told why I not any one else but I why the PT has made the OT better for me.

  9. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I never said that and don't even try to make it seem like I said that.

    I said I have always wanted to know where and ho Vader became what he is in the OT. I wanted to know what I came before. The PT made the OT ten times better. It add things to the OT for me that I never really knew were there."


    And I never disagreed with that, infact I said the very same thing. What I said was that every thing we NEED to know about the PT is in the OT dialogue. The OT makes perfect sense, and we get all the info from the back story that we NEED to understand the story.

    "It made sense such as Vader telling Luke he is his father more powerful."

    How so?

    "It made the duel between Vader and Obi-wan more powerful, and many more thing more powerful then they ever were."

    I never disputed that, I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.

    "Then stop saying 'we' because the word we means more then one person. Ever time I see some one use the word we I have to ask myself who are they talking for. Because it's not me they are taking for."

    In my opinion, "we" the audience (you, me, anyone who can follow a straightforward story) do not need the PT to understand the OT.

  10. TheEliteFetus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 1
    Some of you wouldn't be asking for a PT explaining the How's and Why's of Vader and friends if Lucas had done a better job with the revelations in ROTJ.

    By finding out that Luke's father is Vader in ESB, you'd think that the audience, like Luke, would have their questions answered 'completly' regarding what they have learned in ANH and ESB. Luke doesn't know. Neither does the audience. The viewers shouldn't be required to watch the prequels in order to 'fully' grasp the history and/or truths that should have been answered in ROTJ when Luke questions Yoda and Obi-Wan about what he had been told. Vader could have filled in some blanks as well. ROTJ is the turning point where the audience learns the complete history along with Luke, but alas we learn only a fragment.

    The PT offers nothing knew than what everybody already has known or should have known. The PT is just cannon foder. It's not detrimental to the series.
  11. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    And I never disagreed with that, infact I said the very same thing. What I said was that every thing we NEED to know about the PT is in the OT dialogue. The OT makes perfect sense, and we get all the info from the back story that we NEED to understand the story.

    I'm not even going to answer that until you stop talking for me.

    I never disputed that, I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of.

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are people that really enjoyed and liked the PT and are happy that there is a PT. Why is there such a problem with people liking the PT. So what.

    In my opinion, "we" the audience (you, me, anyone who can follow a straightforward story) do not need the PT to understand the OT

    You don't feel you need it.
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "ROTJ is the turning point where the audience learns the complete history along with Luke, but alas we learn only a fragment."

    While ROTJ could of handled a few things better (leia being Luke's sister etc) I would say on a whole the we learn the guts of what we need to know, even if we don't get many details, but I think going into it anymore would of been tedious and taken away from the flow of the movie, explaining all the stuff about Vader going into the lava and stuff, it works well in a book but, it would just be too much exposition in the movie.


    "'m not even going to answer that until you stop talking for me."

    You keep saying this over and over again, but then you keep coming back.

    I am not speaking for you, that would be impossible, now calm down.

    "I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Why is it so hard for you to understand that there are people that really enjoyed and liked the PT and are happy that there is a PT."

    It isn't hard at all, I agree with you completely, lots of people love the PT, I'm not disputing that, I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all, because your replies don't make any sense. I agree a lot of people like the PT, they are glad it is here, what I'm saying is, the PT is not essiential in terms of understanding the OT. The OT can stand on its own and make perfect sense with or without the PT. If the PT had never been made, the OT would still make sense.

    "Why is there such a problem with people liking the PT. So what."

    There isn't, and I never said there was. I'm not sure where your getting all this from but it sure isn't me.

    "You don't feel you need it"

    So your saying that you and other people DO need the PT to understand the OT? That the OT didn't make sense until the PT was made? Because I thought you said that wasn't the case.

    Aniamidala, try to wrap your head around this concept: In my opinion I don't feel audiences need to see the PT to understand the OT.

    I'm not saying they won't enjoy the PT. I'm not saying the PT is bad. Even if I say "we" it is still my opinion.

    It would be like if I said "In my opinion, WE as a society need to help poor people more"

    Its my opinion, even if I say we. The OT was around for 20 years before the PT, and people understood it just fine.

    You yourself said that you understood the OT before you saw the PT, so you are part of the WE.

    Either you think the OT makes sense without the PT, or you don't. It has nothing to do with whether it is good or not.
  13. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    You yourself said that you understood the OT before you saw the PT, so you are part of the WE.

    Either you think the OT makes sense without the PT, or you don't. It has nothing to do with whether it is good or not.


    Ok you are missing ever thing I'n saying.

    The PT make the OT better for me. It makes many of the scenes much more powerful it makes the OT more then just the Rebels vs the Empire. It helps enhcne the OT for me.

    So I'm in no why a part of that we you are talking about. The EU could never do what the PT has done. The PT has made the OT better for me.

    If you still think that put's me in you we statment then fine go ahead in do that. I don't really care any more.

    There isn't, and I never said there was. I'm not sure where your getting all this from but it sure isn't me.

    From the fact that when someone says that for exmpale they felt Natalie did a really good job on in AOTC it truns into a no she did not. She did a really bad job.

    That's true only for those who feel she did not do a good job. For other's it's true that she did do a good job.

    It put it in a better light. At a forum called Eyes On Fainl Fantasy. Poeple come in a lot and always ask how any one can enjoy FF9. Ever one that posts with why they like it are then told it does not work etc, etc.
  14. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Ok you are missing ever thing I'n saying.

    The PT make the OT better for me. It makes many of the scenes much more powerful it makes the OT more then just the Rebels vs the Empire. It helps enhcne the OT for me."


    I understand perfectly what your saying, and I already agreed that that is true.

    My point is that the story of the OT rebels vs Empire, Luke and Vader, Leia and Han and all the rest worked just fine as a stand alone story without a prequel trilogy put infront (or behind) of it.

    If you think that the OT is more enjoyable having seen the PT, then fine, that was never an issue of debate, but if GL had never changed his mind and decided to make the PT, its not as though we would of all been left scratching our heads, the starwars trilogy would still be the starwars trilogy and nobody would of had a problem with it.

    Someone might make a prequels trilogy to LOTR one day, and some people might think it makes the LOTR trilogy better, and more indepth, but that doesn't mean that until someone does that, LOTR won't make any sense.

    We don't need an LOTR prequel trilogy, although some people might want one.

    Likewise we didn't NEED a starwars prequel trilogy, although it seems many people did want one, and many people are glad we got one.

    Padme is a perfect example of this. In the context of the SW trilogy as it stood for 20 years, Padme is not important. Heck she didn't even have a name. In three movies GL talked about her for less then a minute. To tell the story of ANH, ESB, ROTJ, Padme is irrelevant.

    Now, that doesn't mean some people weren't curious about who Luke and Leia's mother was, and how she fit into the grand scheme of things. But in the context of teh OT, all we NEED to know is she was beautiful, kind, sad, she gave birth to Luke and Leia then died. Leia has a vague memory of her, Luke has none at all.

    That is all we NEEDED to know about their mother, other wise GL would of told us more. But he didn't, because she wasn't important. She wasn't essiential.


    "From the fact that when someone says that for exmpale they felt Natalie did a really good job on in AOTC it truns into a no she did not. She did a really bad job.

    That's true only for those who feel she did not do a good job. For other's it's true that she did do a good job. "


    I don't agree, and I don;t think Natalie Portman would either, infact she was the first to admit that her acting was bad in TPM.

    Acting like any job requires skills and effort, and like any job sometimes your work is better then other days, and some days it worse.

    I've seen NP in a lot of movies and she is a very good actress (especially in Beautiful Girls and The Professional)

    But the quality of acting is not just up to people's opinions, otherwise that would be true of everything. I could make a hamburger out of dog poo and then say it was better then a real hamburger from a good resturant, and that would be my opinion, but my opinion in that case would be wrong.

    If we say movies just come down to people's opinions (which do play some role but are not the only important thing) then it is really a discredit to NP, and all the other actors, directors and writers out there. Thats like saying that some kid who just got out of college who has made one 5min movie is just as talented as GL. But of course that isn't the case, GL has proven that he is very skilled and he has over 30 years of expirence to back it up. So while people might say that kid is more talented then GL, their opinions are of course wrong.
  15. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    But the quality of acting is not just up to people's opinions, otherwise that would be true of everything. I could make a hamburger out of dog poo and then say it was better then a real hamburger from a good resturant, and that would be my opinion, but my opinion in that case would be wrong.

    No it really is up to your opinion. Movies, music, video games, books, are all works of art.

    I will take Eminem as the best exmpale of this. Sure he has one some music awards. But when someone comes up to me and say that he is the best singer ever, etc, etc. That is there opinion and only there opinion. I don't care how mnay awards he has one. I feel he is one of the worst singers ever. I feel his muisc is really bad and that he has noe idea what he is doing.

    That is all my opinion. That applies to all moives, books, music, and video game. They are art. That's all they have ever been is works of art.

    I feel Nightwish is one of the best Metal bands I have ever heard. But to others they may not be very good. That's there opinion. It does not matter how many awards someone has one.

    I feel Tom Hanks is the best act out there. I love ever movie I have seen him in. I feel that Juliea(sp) Roberts is the worst actress I have ever seen. Again that all comes down to how I feel.

    My mom feels Clay Aiken's is one of the best sings right know. Me and my dad don't feel he is. Again that's are opinion. My mom see's that and laughs right along with us. It all comes done to what someone feels is good.

    What is trash for one person is gold for someone else.
  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "No it really is up to your opinion. Movies, music, video games, books, are all works of art. "

    So all art is equal? Starwars and Battlefield earth are of the same quality?

    "I will take Eminem as the best exmpale of this. Sure he has one some music awards. But when someone comes up to me and say that he is the best singer ever, etc, etc."

    Well when someone says something is the best or worst, obviosuly they are wrong because those are absolutes. But to say that Eminem is not talented, regardless of whether you like his music or not, is not true. Opinion or not.

    "That is there opinion and only there opinion. I don't care how mnay awards he has one. I feel he is one of the worst singers ever. I feel his muisc is really bad and that he has noe idea what he is doing."

    But would you agree that a professional singer or songf writer is a better judge of musical ability then someone with no musical ability? That is, is expert opinion more valid then novice opinion? I know nothing about cars, absolutely zip, so if I say a ferrari is not a good car, and a professional car racer says that it is good, well we both have our opinions, but mine is clearly wrong.

    And the same is true for movies and music and books, etc. Otherwise people wouldn;t go to school to learn how to make movies, they would just make them and it wouldn't matter if they were well trained or not, because the quality of their work is all opinion right?

    Having an opinion about things is important, but it should always be an educated opinion, I try never to venture my opinions about things I know nothing about: ie cars, sports, mechanical engineering, etc. Because Opinions can be wrong.

    If we're in a burning building, and in your opinion we should dump water on the flames to put them out, and in my opinion we should pour gasoline on them to put them out, we would both have opinions, but one is clearly right and the other clearly wrong.

    "I feel Tom Hanks is the best act out there. I love ever movie I have seen him in. I feel that Juliea(sp) Roberts is the worst actress I have ever seen. Again that all comes down to how I feel. "

    Yes, but acting is also their jobs, and like any job you can make mistakes, and you have good days and bad days. They went to school, they learned skills, so its not all opinion, because acting is something that can be taught, and learned. It is something that can be improved, and it is something some people have more talent at then others.

    I have not athletic ability, though my Mom might be of the opinion that I'm good at sports, if I ran a race with a professional runner, my mom can say whatever she wants, but they would still be better then me.

    "My mom feels Clay Aiken's is one of the best sings right know. Me and my dad don't feel he is. Again that's are opinion. My mom see's that and laughs right along with us. It all comes done to what someone feels is good."

    But thats just a matter of taste, his music does not appeal to you, but surely you can recognize his inherent talent (theoretically speaking, I'm not sure who this Clay person is, maybe he is terrible). I don't liek Christina Agulara, I don't like pop music, nor slutty fake looking girls who use their bodies to sell records, BUT, I do recognize that she has an extrodinary singing voice, there is no arguing that, opinion doesn't come into it, some people can sing well, some people can't I just don't like the specific songs she sings, but that doesn't change the fact that she has a powerful voice, thats not an opinion, its a fact.

    "What is trash for one person is gold for someone else."

    To an extent, but I think your really undercutting what George Lucas and other filmmakers do. Not everyone can make movies, it takes a lot of skill and talent and savy to do it, some are better then others. Its not different then athletes or any other job.

    Michael Jordan may not be your favorite basketball player, but if someone had the opinion he was bad at basketball, their opinion is wrong, just as if someone
  17. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Well when someone says something is the best or worst, obviosuly they are wrong because those are absolutes. But to say that Eminem is not talented, regardless of whether you like his music or not, is not true. Opinion or not.

    That's not true and you know it's not true.

    But would you agree that a professional singer or song writer is a better judge of musical ability then someone with no musical ability?

    Nope there not. Go watch MTV sometime. Britney Spears and 50 Cent are not good at what they do. They are nothing more then any act. If Britney is so good she would not need to sell her body.

    That is, is expert opinion more valid then novice opinion?

    Any expert opinion. If I took that as fact that would mean I would have to admit that those on MTV are good. They are not they nothing more the teen-booper music who are there to sell sex. That's what music has become. So no the expert's opinion is not right no matter how much of any expert he is. No matter what any one say's they did not give Britney a sing conterct for her voice.

    I know nothing about cars, absolutely zip, so if I say a ferrari is not a good car, and a professional car racer says that it is good, well we both have our opinions, but mine is clearly wrong.

    No it's not he may drive car's but there is more to a car then how it drivers. Him driving the car does not make him any expert on what a good car is. And if you are going to take the word of a race car driver over some who you bulids car's well that's not good at all. Because someone who bulids car's will tell you the best car is the car that runs. So that thowrs that out the window.

    And the same is true for movies and music and books, etc. Otherwise people wouldn;t go to school to learn how to make movies, they would just make them and it wouldn't matter if they were well trained or not, because the quality of their work is all opinion right?

    Again that is not ture because go look at what is on MTV. No really go see the music they play. Britney, 50 Cent, etc are only there to sell sex. That's it if I listen to the expert that means I'm sayin there right Britney is a good singer. It's only there opinion that she is good.

    Having an opinion about things is important, but it should always be an educated opinion, I try never to venture my opinions

    So just because someone who may be a singer tell you that Brintey is a good singer are you going to take there word as fact. I hope not. I really hope you don't do that. If someone who is a Hockey tells you that Steve Yzerman is the best Red Wing in the hitstory of the time I hope you don't take that as fact with out looking up info on him.

    That's just that person's opinion. I don't care how educated that person is. It's only there opinion. I don't care if some guy in the music compnay thinks 50 Cent is the best Rap guy in the world. Or best singer. That's only his opinin just because he is in the musice busz does not mean he's right.

    Don't ever do that RS. Don't ever take what someone say as the truth. Don't think that just because some Race Car drive say a ferrari is the best car that it is fact. Because it's only his opinion that it is the best car.

    To an extent, but I think your really undercutting what George Lucas and other filmmakers do. Not everyone can make movies, it takes a lot of skill and talent and savy to do it, some are better then others. Its not different then athletes or any other job.

    I'm not undercutting them in any way.
  18. darthtj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 2
    I do agree with Rebel Scumb . The pt wasn't needed . There ios a difference between needing and wanting. Did I want a pt absolutely. Do I love the pt? Yes. Aotc is the most impressive film of the entire saga imo, but the ot is still a great without it, but the pt definetly (ESPECIAAL AOTC) added great depth to the storyline. It could also be argued that Esb and Rotj weren't needed either, because a new hope was a great stand alone film.

    Mind you I am a big defender of the pt. Aotc is my favorite film so far, asnd if Episode 3 meets my hopes. The pt will have the 2 best films of the saga imo.

    It wasn't needed, but it was a great addition imo.

    The acing part is subjective because quite frankly I thought Portman and Christensen were terrific in Aotc, and the Acting was a stunning improvent over tpm,. The only actor who has been flat out bad has been Samiel Jackson. . Others would disagree. Even critics and film makers are mixed on it. Kevin Smith even wrote an article complimenting Hayden and Natalie's performance. So teach their own on that.
  19. Ree Yees Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    ENIMEM IS *NOT* TALENTED!!!!!
  20. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    It could also be argued that Esb and Rotj weren't needed either, because a new hope was a great stand alone film.

    very true
  21. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Here's a question, ani:

    Would you say we're all equally talented... painters? Sculptors? Dancers? Singers? Martial artists? Could any one of us paint the Mona Lisa, sculpt Michaelangelo's David, or outfight Jet Li?

    The reason that the existence of talent goes beyond opinion is simple: Some people can do what others cannot. You say that you're not undercutting that talent, but whether or not you're aware of it, that's exactly what you're doing.

    By saying that all talent is subjective, you're effectively saying that it disappears as soon as you stop believing in it. The fact of the matter is that a man with the gifts to draw, write or film what others can't today will still be able to do it tomorrow, regardless of your opinion.
  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    On 2nd thought I'm not going to answer this. I wanted to stay out of this thread and I will.
  23. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Thank you for putting that so eloquently Giest.

    "I'm not undercutting them in any way."

    Your saying that the quality of art or of a movie is only determined by individual opinions, and has nothing to do with the skills of the person involved.

    If someone likes one movie over another it has nothing to do with the movie actually being better, or being made by a more talented artist. Its just an opinion, and completely random. So its all just a matter of opinion, a matter of chance that some movies like SW are beloved for 30 years while other films are forgotten. GL just got lucky that millions of people all had the same opinion that his movies were good.

    What a lucky guy.


    "On 2nd thought I'm not going to answer this. I wanted to stay out of this thread and I will."

    I'm willing to bet my Nubian starship that you won't be gone for long.

    But then that's only MY OPINION ;)
  24. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
  25. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    How is the story bad? You tell me!
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