Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Vialco, Feb 3, 2013.
A wizard made their ships go faster.
Well, a certain "crazy old wizard" did become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" in the previous movie
I think he was on Dagobah from about 40 minutes into ESB to about 1 hour 20 minutes of the movie when he left for Cloud City.
And they all were still in the same clothes!
I think the reason you guys keep disagreeing is that the film seems to have a plot hole. This is one definition of a plot hole: a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. If you look at the star maps, then you have to assume that it would take years or decades for the Falcon to make it there at sub-light speeds, but if you consider the film, it's pretty clear that it doesn't take close that long (nobody's any older, even Luke; not enough food; TESB takes place during a short time frame; etc). So, you're both trying to reconcile this plot hole. Tom's fixing the plot hole by saying that Bespin has to be much closer b/c the hyperdrive is clearly not working even though the maps of the star wars galaxy indicate Bespin is too far and even though it contradicts our understanding of star system. Arawn's fixing the plot hole by saying that Han gerryrigged the hyperdrive (in a scene we don't see) or uses a backup hyperdrive (which is listed as part of its specs on wookieepedia) so that they can cross that long distance in a months' time, but since using a gerryrigged or backup hyperdrive isn't shown on screen, then that's still a plot hole b/c they should have shown that on screen. Either way, it's a plot hole. You can't change the maps but we also can't know just by watching the film how they can cross that great of a distance in such a short amount of time. So, IMHO this doesn't seem like it's an argument that can be won.
I think in that case we must by necessity assume that ".5 past lightspeed" does not actually mean "1.5 times the speed of light", but something else that isn't explained. [/quote]
I'm actually all but positive that .5 past lightspeed doesn't actually mean 1.5 times the speed of light. For instance, the Falcon goes twice the speed of most Imperial starships. That would mean that Imperial starships can't go over light speed, but we know that's not the case. I remember looking up somewhere that info before, and the Falcon was way faster than just .5 over light speed. In fact, it was faster than Star Trek ships. Warp 12 = 144 times the speed of light in Trek. I'll try to find my source if I can, but if I do, I better get a "like"! I remember it was really hard to find before.
BTW, I hope Han and Leia were able to make the most of that month in the Falcon together! They seem to be much more sweet to each other by the time they arrive in Bespin.
This is a possible source on warp factors:
though it seems that warp 9 and a bit can be as high as 1000+ times the speed of light.
I agree that for ".5 past light speed" to be 1.5x the speed of light in the SW universe, would require a SW galaxy (and physics) radically different from ours in some way- hence the simpler explanation is that it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means.
Finally someone speaks truth. But I think that there are subtle contextual clues that indicate it was probably not a super short time frame. I believe that it was the intention of the filmmaker that it took them awhile to arrived based on how powerful Luke became during his time on Dagobah. It was intentionally indicated early in the film that it was hard for Luke to move the lightsaber with his mind. By the end of his time on Dagobah, it seems like it was much easier for him to smoothly levitate multiple rocks with the same level of focus. Yoda and Luke also have a conversation that gives the impression that it was some time between his failure at the cave and the time in which he is preparing to leave to save the rest of the gang. During the same scene yoda told him it was the future he saw and that the future was always in motion. If Han and the gang were arriving at Bespin a couple of hours after this scene, and Vader was getting there just after, it doesn't seem like there would be THAT much room for change. Now its's possible that Yoda was lying, but if he wasn't, then they must have been talking about an event that would be at least a little time in the future in order for events to play out as luke had forseen.
...and BTW, Luke didn't seem to have any ability to see the future at the beginning of the film and by the time he was done on Dagobah, accurately saw Han being tortured. Yet another ability that I would assume took some time to develop and yet another contextual clue about how long it took.
... Incidentally, i don't know where I read this, but the change of clothes thing... Leia's stuff was on whichever transport ship she was supposed to leave with. If she was lounging around the ship in a pair of Han's pajamas or whatever during the long flight, she would still have changed into clothes that fit her when she was about to have contact with the public, yeah?
I've always wondered how long was Luke on Dagobah...He learned a lot in the time he was there..
Hmmm, that's weird. Maybe they changed the definitions or maybe my memory isn't as good as I thought. When I was kid, I played a Star Trek role-playing game, and warp speed was calculated like this if I remember right: warp 1 = speed of light, warp 2 = 4 or (2 x 2) times speed of light, warp 3 = 9 or (3 x 3) times, etc.
On that chart, it seems that it goes like this: warp 1 = speed of light, warp 2 = 8 or (2 x 2 x 2) or warp 3 = 27 ( 3 x 3 x 3)... It seems to go that way until about 5, and then it just goes crazy. I'll try and find the specs for SW hyperdrive engines. I know it's out there somewhere!
Invent anything aye......
My theory is that Yoda, knowing he only had a short time to train Luke before he had to face Vader, used the force to fly around the atmosphere in the reverse direction causing Dagobah to turn in the opposite direction and in doing so turned time backwards enabling him to have as much time as he needed to train Luke while not having to worry about the time it took the Falcon to reach Bespin and also being able to bring Lois back to life....boom, end credits, movie over!
There is one reference to time in ESB that also bears in on this debate: when Lando betrays Han and the gang to Boba Fett and the Empire, he says "They arrived right before you did. I'm sorry, etc."
Since the Empire's ships obviously still have lightspeed (as, presumably, does Slave I) that suggests Luke was on Dagobah long enough for Fett to figure out where Han was headed and report back to Vader, by comm or in person, in enough time for the Empire to mobilise a force, reach Bespin, hide Vader's Super Star Destroyer somewhere in the Bespin system out of the Falcon's sensor range, and occupy the place to set the trap. (All of this rests on the assumption that Lando is telling Han the unadulterated truth right then and there, of course.)
If the Falcon was only capable of sublight speed -- something Boba Fett would have surely been able to work out when Han didn't go to lightspeed after the Star Destroyers left -- then there's no need to set the trap at Bespin at all, since Fett just has to tell the Empire to stop at X coordinate and they'll pick up the Falcon with no chance of escape. Indeed the Empire could've just waited outside the Bespin system since they'd realise the Falcon had no hyperdrive and couldn't run. I'm not saying the Falcon's hyperdrive was functional, but rather that it does suggest a backup hyperdrive in place, since escape is possible, even if it's by jumping randomly around so your pursuer can't trace along your last known trajectory. I appreciate the analogy that cars aren't built with backup engines -- but they are given spare tyres, basic essentials to keep moving in an isolated area. A backup hyperdrive could conceivably fill the same function, if it's small and feasible enough to store on a ship.
As for "point five past lightspeed" ... well, this is the same movie where Han claims to have done the Kessel Run in "less than 12 parsecs", where in our universe a parsec is a unit of distance, not time ... so we might be a bit forgiving on that score. Captain Admiral Piett notes in ESB that "If the Millennium Falcon went into lightspeed, it could be on the other side of the galaxy by now." That's a pretty potent demonstration of its speed in hyperspace if that's an accurate number and it's only been a few minutes since the Falcon vanished: we're talking tens of thousands of lightyears there. And Piett doesn't seem to be the sort of guy (nor does it really seem very smart) to exaggerate to Darth Vader.
EDIT: Although, come to think of it, Imperial officers exaggerate to Darth Vader regularly. "She'll die before she'll tell you anything!" ... "I tell you this station will be operational as planned!" ... "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure the stolen data tapes. Or given you clairvoyance to find the Rebels' hidden--ahhhhhk---
There was every reason to let them get to Bespin, and that was to set the trap for Luke. Han and the gang were a secondary goal to Vader, almost an afterthought . Luke was the prized fish. The trap is for Luke. That is why you let them land on Bespin, hyperdrive or no hyperdrive.
That is why you torture Han, without asking a question. To make Luke sense it.
Oh, I'm aware Luke was the main game. But if Vader had Han and Leia, he could've set the trap anywhere. Even on Coruscant. Vader's ship didn't have the broken hyperdrive. Wouldn't have even had to transport the torture equipment down to Cloud City. The fact Vader felt he had to improvise and arrange a trap other than on an Imperial stronghold demonstrates, to me at least, that the Falcon was capable of hyperdrive in a very limited way -- or else the entire trap at Bespin is a pointless exercise.
You set the trap somewhere like Bespin because it's somewhere Luke will feel like has a chance to have success. You don't set it on the capital of the Empire. Their plan worked.
Like I said, "somewhere like Bespin" can be anywhere in the galaxy if Luke's sensing their location through the Force - for example, somewhere that the Empire has more than one squad of troops and a shaky deal with the local administrator to rely on.
Why bother with a somewhere like Bespin when you can just set the trap on Bespin? They spring the trap at dinner, with Solo and gang completely unable to do a thing about it. I don't think the problem was a lack of resources, I think Vader brought what he thought he needed. And he misjudged Lando. Although not by much.
I just don't see how Bespin is proof of hyperdrive. In fact, I think it's the opposite. The Falcon's inability to use hyperdrive is what allows them to set the trap there in the first place. As far as this movie is concerned, the Falcon cannot achieve lightspeed.
As far as this movie is concerned, the Falcon travels between two locations which are separated by a distance too large to be traversed at sublight within the allowable timeframe.
As Obi-Wan might say:
No, no, I'm talking about the trap for Luke in that last post. Once Han and Leia are captured, Vader can set the trap for Luke anywhere in the galaxy.
The trap at Bespin for Han and Leia doesn't make sense if the Empire knows the Falcon is only capable of sublight speed. If your contention's right and the Falcon travelled to Bespin at sublight only, then I think it's a safe inference Fett was aware of that since he was following the Falcon and then left at lightspeed, since he got to Bespin -- with the Empire -- ahead of the Falcon. My point is that if so, then the shenanigans with the trap for Han and Leia don't make narrative sense: the Empire could simply drop out of hyperspace along the Falcon's sublight trajectory to Bespin and trace back along that or indeed just wait for the Falcon to show up, thus capturing Han and Leia since they can't escape, having no lightspeed capability.
However, the trap for Han and Leia does make sense if the Empire's uncertain whether the Falcon still has capacity to jump to lightspeed. In order to capture them, you have to get them off the Falcon. Which a trap at Bespin allows for. A backup hyperdrive explains the trap because it leaves a (very limited) capacity for the Falcon to go to lightspeed and thus escape, even if temporarily. It also resolves the yawning gap between star systems that seems apparent.
If the ship has hyperdrive, it does not need to go to Bespin. The movie is pretty clear as to why they need to go there.
It can have partially working hyperdrive that is only reliable within a limited range, just as was the case with the queen's ship in TPM. If the ship does not have hyperdrive, it does not get to Bespin.
Except for the fact that in the movie, it does just that. And there is sound and fire in space, and swords made of light that form a blade with an ending, and lots of other things not found in real world physics
Which means it had some form of hyperdrive, as officially licensed products confirmed.
if you say so......................
The Falcon is the fastest ship in the Galaxy after all.
I don't consider things like this to be a plot hole. Star Wars isn't science fiction. After all, earlier in this same movie, Han stepped out onto the surface of an asteroid which was apparently located in the vacuum of space with just a breath mask
Anything regarding the physics of Star Wars I disregard. However, plot holes in the story/narrative are a different matter entirely.
If the Falcon used high C-fractional sublight travel to get to Bespin, with the associated relativistic distortion making it seem like a few days for them (thus avoiding starvation) while several years passed in the outside universe, here's one interesting side effect - it makes Luke and Leia, who used to be the exact same age, being twins, now be a few years apart in biological age, with Luke being the "older" of the two.