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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST How many midichlorians does Rey have?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by BobaBacca, Dec 23, 2015.

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  1. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    It's the highest ever measured...

    Obi-Wan: Even Master Yoda doesn't have a thread count that high.
    Qui-Gon: No Jedi has.
    Obi-Wan: What does it mean?
    Qui-Gon: I'm not sure.
     
  2. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    I think the movie is trying to indicate that Rey is has above-average potential in Force abilities; When Snoke expresses disbelief that she resisted Kylo Ren's mind-reading trick, Kylo says: ""She's strong with the Force, untrained but, stronger than she knows." (Bear in mind that circumstantial evidence from A New Hope strongly indicates that a non-Force-sensitive successfully resisting mind probes is not unheard of or considered to be evidence for Force-usage, so Kylo may have an especially strong probe.) When Rey makes her jailbreak, Kylo warns the stormtroopers sent to find her: "She's just beginning to test her powers. The longer it takes to find her, the more dangerous she becomes." (Bear in mind, she would've probably been found within hours without her friends coming for her, was just learning that she could bend spoons, and would need to figure out how to do the spoon-bending through trial and error without a For Dummies how-to guide.)

    Also, although she didn't figure out she was Force-sensitive until the Takodana incidnet (and didn't embrace it until Starkiller Base), there's circumstantial evidence that Rey was unintentionally using the Force prior; when she and Finn are celebrating their escape from the TIEs in the Falcon, in response to Finn's question about how she was able to pilot the ship so well, she admits: "I don't know! -- I've flown some ships but I've never left the planet!" That sound a lot like what she says when Finn later asks her how she escaped the cell block (which we know was through using the Force: "I can't explain it. And you wouldn't believe it." (Being able to accidentally use the Force in isolated incidences, like Rey apparently using it to enhance the piloting skills she already had from heavy-duty simulator training and some practical experience, are common with other untrained Jedi character in canon.)

    So, because of stuff like that, I'm inclined to say that she does have a high medi-chlorian count, but how high is unclear. Her usage of the Force as an untrained newbie with zero lessons is pretty close to what we've seen other Jedi characters with her lack of training do, like Luke Skywalker and Ezra Bridger, so she seems to be starting out average, which means that we don't know her limits yet. We also don't know how much of her first-day success she can repeat on command and how much was beginner's luck.

    So, I think she's going to be among the best of her generation, but it's too early to tell, given that we're only told this, have only seen her operate within the baseline normal, and we don't know how she'll compare at full power and training to the other Jedi characters until the upcoming movies and other media continue her story.
     
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  3. TheOneX_Eleazar

    TheOneX_Eleazar Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 24, 2013
    Have you heard of the mitochondria endosymbiosis theory? This theory states, based on circumstantial evidence, mitochondria did not initially evolve inside our cells. They were a separate organism that was consumed by cells that would eventually become us somehow surviving being eaten and forming a symbiotic relationship. Over time they just became part of our cells. This is similar to what I am thinking.
     
  4. dsematsu

    dsematsu Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 6, 2013
    The force always meant something spiritual. That's why in ANH the Rebels say "may the force be with you." Still, only Luke was a Jedi. This continued into Empire. If anyone could grasp the force, why didn't Luke train a couple more people? I mean, he was a rookie himself, he could have taken dozens of people to find Yoda, and they could have all been trained. In RotJ Luke even says, "the force is strong in my family." This implies a genetic component. Even if you don't accept that, it suggests there are factors beyond mere belief that influence one's strength in the force. "My sister has it." Lucas couldn't spell it out more clearly that it is not a ubiquitous trait. I mean listen to Yoda, "there is another." Just one other? Leia? Was JJ asleep during this scene or did he hear Yoda reply, "no, there is the rest of the Rebellion."

    I mean look how silly JJ sounds, "when **** gets serious you could harness that Force." Does he ever think before he speaks? Was **** not as serious as serious could possibly be during the events of the OT? I'd think that would be a pretty good time for everyone to start harnessing. And I feel this does a disservice to characters like Han Solo. Han wasn't a Jedi. He represented the normal folk, and he was among the best of those folk, and we loved him for it. JJ makes it sound like he was just tapping into the force. I mean, "**** was serious," right?

    None of this makes the force any less spiritual for those that can't physically alter it. And at least he said he adheres to the cannon. That gives me a bit of hope.
     
  5. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    There are instances where Force sensitive beings are born from parents that display no obvious Force aptitude. Ezra for instance. And in TCW, Palpatine has Force sensitive kids abducted for experiments, and their parents display no obvious Force potential.

    That it is hereditary in Anakin's family may be unusual. Or it may be the norm. I'm not sure if Stass Allie and Adi Gallia are still canonically related, but if so, they would be the only other instance I can think of of some kind of Force legacy.

    Also, being strong in the Force does not equal power, necessarily. Anakin was strong in the Force, but his powers had not manifested beyond quick reflexes. Yoda denied his training, fearing that his training would lead to danger.

    It seems like they were content to sending Anakin off without training him, and seemed to believe that the danger could be avoided by not training him.

    Rey is unusual in that her powers manifested beyond Kylo's without training. Luke and Anakin's pretty much did not extend past being good pilots.

    There is a blog article at SW.com about the midi-chlorians by the guy that wrote the Making of Star Wars books. He seems to arrive the same conclusion many arrived at here regarding midi-chlorians: that they basically are a head start on a person's skill. That those with more will have a natural ability to use the Force, it will come easier to him.

    But he also cites an earlier quote from Lucas back during the making of ROTJ where he says anybody that has the time and dedication can use it.

    He says that during the writing of the book (which I have not read), Lucas had made a comment that reconciled midi-chlorians with his ROTJ comment, but he does not provide that quote in the blog article.

    But the conclusion he seems to arrive at, which isn't necessarily canon, is that midi-chlorians basically represent natural skill, but that through hard work, anyone can achieve it. So it just came more naturally to people like Anakin (probably feeding his arrogance), but other people could achieve what he did, they just had to work for it. But the quotes he provides by Lucas do not actually say this, but again there is a quote he references but does not provide. So Lucas may have said this, or it could be the writer's interpretation.

    Quotes from Lucas that he does provide do state however that all cells have at least one midi-chlorian, or else a cell cannot reproduce. He also makes it sound like midi-chlorians are intelligent and think with a hive mind through the Force and that it is that connection in the energy field that allows trained Force users to manipulate the environment.

    Here's the article

    http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

    But again, outside of the direct quotes by Lucas, it's dubious how many of these ideas are Lucas' and how many are just the writer's.

    Edit: and the description of midi-chlorians communicating to each other via a hive mind seems to me to suggest there is some kind of intelligence ("will of the Force") controlling who will have this natural aptitude. And the midi-chlorians assemble in higher numbers in the cells of those individuals.

    Which makes me think all people like Yoda and Anakin are "chosen" to an extent. Anakin was THE Chosen One, conceived by the Force with the highest count known. But if there is some kind hive mind of microorganisms interpreting the will of the Force, then it sounds like anyone with an abnormally high count is chosen to some extent and destined to have the ability.

    If I recall, there were early comments about Palpatine describing him as being self-taught in the Force. One of those people who just studied hard and learned it. And while it's no longer true since his Master was Darth Plagueis, his current backstory is still largely a blank slate.

    Lucas has also commented on the idea of destiny, and that people can choose to reject their destiny. That Anakin's destiny was to destroy the Sith, but he chose to reject it and then chose again to fulfill it.

    Perhaps Palpatine was not destined to know how to use the Force and had to work hard to learn it. Perhaps that's why nobody could sense him. His whole rise to power might have flown defiantly in the face of what his destiny was supposed to be and in the end the Force brought Anakin into the world to destroy him.

    Just a thought. Not canon by any means. Just a way to reconcile everything that has been said.

    But if what the blog says is true, then it would follow that her count must be very, very high, since her abilities manifested spontaneously without training, to the point that she eclipsed Kylo's abilities, not only resisting his mind probe, but probing his mind.

    Compare that to Luke who at the same age had no abilities without training except when it came to shooting rodents.

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  6. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    I agree with all that. "Using the force" is not meant to be limited to people with the right genes. That's not a story, or message, Lucas ever intended to give to the world.
     
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  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    She doesn't have midiclorians, she has maxiclorians!
     
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  8. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    But then how come the movies treat medi-chlorians as the only way one is capable of using the Force? There's never any discussion of teaching muggle characters useful Force tricks for combat, and the selection of Jedi in the prequels clearly shows that there's some basic criteria for selection that only specific people can meet.

    Also, having a genetic requirement to use the Force doesn't completely negate the idea of free will in this destiny-centric story; Luke came close to walking away from the Jedi path, and Rey only went down it by choice (in fact, some of the tie-in materials for TFA make it very clear that she wanted to the decision to be made by her own choice, not because she was "supposed" to).
     
  9. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Midichlorians come up only a handful of times in the prequels, and hardly at all in the saga as a whole. Qui-Gon says they are needed to use the Force, but he also says they reside in all living things. Han has them, Ackbar has them, the rancor has them. I'm not sure a "muggle" really exists, since all living things have midichlorians and through them people can have knowledge of the Force, as Qui-Gon puts it.

    As to why people like Han are not taught Force techniques, probably because he's far too old. Anakin was 9 and still deemed too old.

    It's probably one thing to take a toddler, without emotional attachments, and raise them to know the Force is real and that things are possible through the Force.

    It's probably much more difficult and dangerous to train someone who has lived their whole life in ignorance/disbelief and train them to use the Force and expect them to use it responsibly.




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  10. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    Exactly. The point was made clearly and unequivocally by Qui-Gon that all living beings possess midichlorians. It just seems that some people have more of them. How they develop more of them is still an open question, though. Are people born with a certain number, or do midichlorians grow within people who are able to attune themselves to the force? If the latter, then everyone does indeed have the "potential." It's just that it takes a very focused mind, and dedication, to develop the ability to truly "use" the force in a practical way. Everybody can tap into the force, as it's all around us. It's just that not everybody knows how to tap into it (or even know whether or not they are tapped into it). It's a metaphor for tapping into the unconscious mind.

    Fans need to learn to not get lost in the noise, and accept the broader message. These stories aren't made to exist in a vacuum. They're meant to relate to our own human experiences.
     
  11. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Filoni on midi-chlorians:

    “To me, when you talk about the Force, the Force is in everything that’s alive; that’s what Obi-Wan says originally. That’s true, even in the days of midi-chlorians, which everybody is afraid to talk about, but I’m not. What that tells you is – when I was a kid, I believed that everybody probably had the Force, and they just didn’t believe – midi-chlorians actually prove that theory out. We all have them, just to differing degrees.”

    “For a long time I’ve used someone like Bruce Lee as an example. He has, if you like, a lot of talent for martial arts – or a very high midi-chlorian count. If I train in martial arts, can I learn martial arts? Yes, I can improve my midi-chlorian count in that discipline. Will I be as good as Bruce Lee? No, that’s not my talent. We were always able to find real-world equivalencies to Star Wars to make comparisons that make it feel like it’s a real thing. When I talk about Force sensing, I talk about when you are standing somewhere and you don’t know but you feel someone standing behind you. It’s all extensions of those things on a much broader level. The Jedi and Sith have one way of interpreting that.”
     
  12. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 26, 2009
    I like the idea of midi-chlorians representing Force potential rather than existing Force strength. While it will probably never be mentioned in the sequel trilogy, I always liked the concept of the Force having both scientific and spiritual qualities.
     
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  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Midi-chlorians took the mistery, the magic, the unknown, and rationalized all that in a mundane way. Unnecessary.
     
  14. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    Kind of like how the Force was explained to be really an energy field. Wait, that was literally the first thing we learned about it in the first movie! And the midi-chlorians don't fit in? Honestly, they fit in quite well, IMHO, given A New Hope's presenting the Force having both scientific and spiritual elements.
     
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  15. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    It's all about execution. In ANH, Obi-Wan says the force is "an energy field created by all living things" and Vader says "the force is strong with this one." That's vague and mysterious. In TPM, force-sensitivity gets explained with very specific midichlorian number counts that are arrived at via clinical blood tests. Surely, you must see the difference between the two things...
     
  16. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    Honestly, I've never had a problem with the medi-chlorians. In fact, when I saw TMP, I thought it was really cool that we were being given more info about how the Jedi worked and did stuff. I like medi-chlorians, plain and simple.

    However, I think you did a decent job explaining why they didn't work for you, so kudos.
     
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  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Even Master Yoda's count isn't that high!
     
  18. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    I mean, I don't hate the midi-chlorians...... Quantum physics show us quantum entanglement to be real...... All bodies in the universe interact with each other through gravity, even if by infinitesimal amounts.

    If midi-chlorians are the official explanation, fine. I would prefer something more Yin Yang, more mystical. But who am I to say this?

    Sometimes I don't want to know that Santa Claus does not exist.... but I respect your opinions, and of course, GL view on this as well.
     
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  19. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Sorry but that didn't happen at all.

    midi-chlorians do not explain the Force at all. It's still the same energy field it always was that is created by life itself. The only thing "explained" is that training allows you to quiet your mind and "listen" to them to hear the will of the Force.

    I think people tend to forget the entire aspect of the Living Force and the will of the Force is so key to the prequels. The Force both the Dark and Light and the entire aspect of how it shapes the galaxy is underlying every single movie in the PT which carries forward into the OT.

    The enormity of the Force on this scale simply was not present in the OT previously. The personal aspect was there but the cosmic peril was not.

    Exactly. For those who think something was taken away then I would say it was never there in the first place because of all of the mystery that was taken away by what we learned in the OT in the first place.


    Sorry I don't see that at all. It's not actually even in the movies themselves. The midi-chlorians are perfectly in step with everything we actually see and hear in the OT. It's simply the interface between the Force's energy (which comes from life) and how it then returns and penetrates said life.

    All beings have them. All beings have the Force.

    The Force also clearly has some mysterious and unknown control over the midi-chlorians since they created Anakin (you don't get more mysterious than that!) and Plagueis could use the Force to influence them to create life (if you believe Sidious was telling the truth).

    Look at TPM. For Qui-Gon everything is about the Force. He believes in the will of the Force and that it was guiding everything. Forget about Obi-Wan in ANH. He didn't find Luke. He was simply waiting for him. Qui-Gon had the real mysterious task of identifying the Chosen One which he did through the Force. Compared to him Obi-Wan and Yoda's belief in the will of the Force was nothing. Even by the time of the OT they had learned from him but they still didn't really get it. They were wrong over and over again about what should be done about Anakin and Luke as well.

    The midi-chlorian count of Anakin was yet another mystery. He didn't know what it meant but since he believed Shmi that Anakin had no father then the conclusion was that Anakin was conceived by them (and therefore the Force).
     
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  20. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 13, 2005
    I am also hoping they dont bring those up again...
     
  21. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Qui-Riv-Brid, my opinion on the midi-chlorians is just that some things are better left as a mystery, just that. No worries, I don't hate the midi-chlorians, I just find them... too scientifical.

    Like the magical rings in LotR, there is no need to explain them scientifically.
     
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  22. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 29, 2016
    20,000.....and ONE!
     
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    The problem is that Obi-Wan already broke the mystery in ANH in the first place because he clearly knows what the Force is plus the Jedi know how to train to use it.

    The "mystery" aspect of it as it were was because we were experiencing it through the eyes of Luke who was new and didn't understand.

    Obi-Wan's understanding went so deep as to be able to become one with the Force. The magical rings in LOTR were also explained. So explanations are all around anyway.

    That's it's science or magic doesn't matter. The Force is not magic in Star Wars. It clearly exists and much of it's basics is understood by the Jedi through the Force and it's interaction with living beings.
     
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  24. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    Regarding Lord Of The Rings, I think that to a small extent the story suffers from it never being clear quite what power the ring would have in Sauron's hands.

    With midichlorians, I don't think the problem is with the concept, which Qui-Riv-Brid rightly points out doesn't actually undermine the mystical aspect of the force, but there is an issue with the realisation of it on screen, insofar as that the blood sample and results serve as a shorthand for "this child has unprecedented potential", and it's in a way that is done through a physical test rather than as something mystical that is perceived by the Jedi. That the high count is immediately compared against Yoda's does create a strong impression that we are supposed to see midichlorians as being some sort of power ranking.

    This is a shame, because if the scene had been handled differently, the concept could have strengthened the film rather than being among many people's biggest issues with the film. Unless I'm wrong, there is a clear but ultimately clumsy attempt to make symbiosis a theme in the film; from the Naboo and Gungans who are stronger when they listen to each other, to the failings of the senate as people shout but don't listen, to the idea that Jedi's strength comes from a microscopic symbiote that exists in all living things.

    Imagine, for example, that Anakin's force potential was initially detected simply by Qui Gon and Obi Wan both sensing an immense force presence on Tattooine, and the "blood test" scene was simply Qui Gon confirming to Obi Wan that what they detected was a slave boy.

    And imagine then, that midichlorians were only brought up later, in regards to how sensitive Anakin's is to the force. If the count wasn't compared to master Yoda in a way that suggests power rankings, but if the idea was that the midichlorians were so numerous and so sensitive to the Force that Anakin's perception of the world was fundamentally different to everybody else's, being not so much attuned to the force as bombarded with it (think young Kal El in Man Of Steel, say)
    And that it is that perception of the world that creates the risk; that if the dark side starts to corrupt him, he will be totally surrounded by the dark side, even more so than usual force sensitives.
     
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  25. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Lemme check...

    <Takes a vial of Rey's blood>

    <puts it through an analyzing machine>

    The reading here is...

    Wait for it....

    Wait for it...

    ...

    1,138.
     
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