PT How many people knew Darth Sidious was also Palpatine?

I think Bail would've been suspicious of the Emperor but I doubt he would've known the Emperor was a Sith lord. He probably didn't even understand what it meant to be Sith and the implications. The Sith became very mysterious.

 

In the EU, the Wild Space TCW tie-in novel showed that, while he initially didn't understand the nature of the Sith and believed them mythical (and was upset that the Jedi had kept the existence of the Sith secret from the Senate) - he quickly learned that the Sith were indeed a very real threat, and agreed with the Jedi that they should be destroyed on-sight.



The basic idea, that Sith are like Evil Jedi - similar powers - so only a Jedi has a reasonable chance of beating a Sith in a straight fight - and that there's always two - I could see them telling him even if the EU story never gets recanonized. Thus his collaboration with Yoda's assassination attempt - and their being open with him when talking about what to do with the children.

He's in the room when Obi-Wan says to Yoda "We must take them somewhere the Sith will not sense their prescence" after all.

 

Eh. Words like Sith may have been thrown about, but I Bail knew (or cared) what that entailed.

I do have an issue with the current canon in that nobody seems to know what a Sith is, when that's like nobody today knowing who the Romans were.

They had multiple Empires, waged war with the Jedi, and conquered the Galaxy. Yet nobody seems to really care that there's this Darth Vader guy in the Empire. That's like the Secretary of Defense being a Neo-Nazi. People should care. But I know while working on TCW, Dave Filoni had argued that the common people wouldn't really know what can Sith was, nor care.

Yet, in the Dark Lords book, which I've not read, I've heard that Palpatine makes a conscious effort to hide his abilities from witnesses.

If nobody cares, then this shouldn't be an issue (but how could they not?). And if they do care, then why is Vader able to parade around?

As far as Bail is concerned though, I think Palpatine being a Sith is irrelevant. He had to be stopped either way, with or without Jedi help.

Either the Rebels didn't know he was a Sith, or they knew but didn't care. He was still the guy responsible for the oppressive government, and they were willing to fight him regardless.

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Luke, Ahsoka, Kanan, and Ezra must know.

This is why I miss Lucas. The PT and TCW were much clearer about who knows what than the OT and Rebels.

 

I often wonder if there had to have been at least a few people in the vast SW galaxy that at least suspected, even if only as a guess, that Chancellor Palpatine was the orchestrating the war, etc. and if they were in the know, the Sith Lord.

Look at all the endless conspiracy theories we have on our planet. Taking into account characters like Skelly from A New Dawn, there had to have been someone who was going around trying to convince people Palpatine was orchestrating the war, etc.

 

Maybe they were known as "Clone Wars truthers."

 

Even if Bail knew, I still think he would've lacked knowledge on Sith. He may have not even known about the 'evil Jedi' concept. I feel like this fits better in the continuity of the story, neither Leia or Luke knew about the Emperor's power. He may have associated 'the Sith' in the above dialogue referring to Darth Vader. He was the main focal point during the discussion.

Bail is certainly a debatable one. It can go either way with him.

 

But this is certainly a good thing, the ambiguity and mystery that the viewer shares with the character they're watching on-screen is very powerful.

 

I don't think Sidious has any reason to hide anything from Maul. He might be his firmest and earliest supporter. Maul seems devoted to the Sith cause, wanting revenge on the Jedi (presumably for something the Jedi did to the Sith in the past). They share a common goal. No need for manipulation and deception.

Tarkin says this to Vader: "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." It seems like he thinks Vader is still a Jedi (albeit one that turned away from the others to support the Empire), and knows nothing about the Sith.
Who are the members of the Imperial Ruling Council? I think we can be quite certain that Motti doesn't know, otherwise his line "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion [...]" would be intentionally ridiculing their Emperor.

During the discussion, I don't think they knew that Vader survived the burning yet. The "Sith" they're talking about is Sidious and any future apprentices he might have.

 

Just to add more to the Maul and Tarkin discussion.

Sidious sent Maul on a secret mission to capture the Queen and force her to sign the treaty. Sidious would have to be very distrusting of Maul to not tell him what the plan (which I'm pretty sure somehow involves his political influence) was.

With Tarkin, Sidious was already the emperor, and was ruling with an iron fist. This is no secret. Sidious not telling Tarkin about himself being a Sith doesn't mean he's hiding the truth from Tarkin per se, he might just see it as none of his business. And Tarkin probably wouldn't care what the emperor's personal belief system is either. It doesn't change anything as far as he's concerned.

 

I think it’s because by that time, the Empire was holding everyone in an iron grip so Sith or not, Vader was obviously the bad guy — what with him being the Emperor’s personal enforcer. And if you’re an average citizen of the Galactic Empire, you’d keep quiet about it if you don’t want Vader paying you a personal visit late at night.

 

This is one of the few things about Star Wars that I think can become very muddied logically.

Palpatine is the real power, but he doesn’t present himself as such. In the novel Tarking it is mentioned that he hardly makes appearances anymore, which leads to rumors among the populace.

He’s this heroic politician of The Clone Wars that quickly becomes reclusive following the victory, letting people like Vader and Tarkin commit atrocities in his “absence.”

And when Palpatine does personally get involved in a mission to Ryloth, he makes a conscious effort to leave no witnesses that have seen him using the Force.

Every other canon Dark Sider that I can think of let their powers be known. It helped them maintain order through fear.

So why then is Palpatine adamant about keeping his abilities a secret? Why become silent and portray himself as pitiful?

If this leads to rumors that Palpatine has been “overthrown” by the likes of Tarkin or Vader and if the public image of Palpatine is that he is still a good man that has been ousted from within, that is in every way I can think of a bad, pointless strategy/image for Palpatine to feed.

When the Han Dynasty fell and generals like Dong Zhuo and Cao Cao took control over the Han court with the Emperor as a puppet, that lead to uprisings against both generals.

When the Ashikaga shogunate fell under similar circumstances, when a Samurai lord started to use the weak Shogun as a puppet, it lead to opposition under the pretense of rescuing the Shogun.

In Europe, when the mother of a child heir got too involved in politics with her son as a puppet, there would be pushback from other lords in the child’s name.

By feeding into the image of himself being weak or absent, after being a beloved politician during TCW, I would logically think that it would inspire Rebellion. Not against the Emperor, but in an effort to rescue or control him.

But we don’t see much of a motive for why the story was portrayed this way, nor do we see Palpatine loyalists in the Rebellion.

If his desire is to control through fear, then why hide your power? And if your desire is to inspire pity, then why don’t we see the appropriate responses from those that adore him?




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Maybe he saw that the Empire needed to be purged early on, setting the stages for the Contingency from the beginning.

Or maybe he wanted to see how people would react, thereby testing them.

 

I never got the impression from the films that Sidious was trying to portray himself as a pitiful puppet ruler. Those in the military know that the Emperor had power over Vader ("The Emperor commands you make contact with him" "Move the ship out of the asteroid field so that we can send a clear transmission").
Keeping his force powers a secret might just be a precautionary measure, so people wouldn't take those powers into account when planning an assassination attempt. Fear of Vader and the Death Star is enough to keep most people under control.

 

I think in the early days of Star Wars, Lucas had toyed with the idea that the military establishment had overthrown Palpatine, before eventually making him the evil Sith Lord. The movies themselves don’t really address his public image, though a couple of the newer canon literature does and kind of has nods to the original idea.

I know that the military understands that the Emperor is in charge, but to Joe Commoner on Coruscant, the only real glimpse we get is that there’s a lot of mystery about his reclusiveness. Which IMO could easily feed into the idea that Palpatine is a puppet. Since he abruptly withdraws from center stage and is overshadowed in public by the military establishment.

If a beloved person suddenly disappears and is replaced by evil, it would be logical to assume that something bad happened to him. And when legitimate rulers become puppets following a coup, it historically can lead to violence as opponents use the coup to justify war.




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I'm not sure if the average citizen would think he's a puppet. With the Han dynasty example, I've read that Emperor Xian's puppet status only became clear to most people after Cao Cao killed Empress Fu in 214, even though most people today agree that he was in power long ago. For an ordinary civilian, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to think that the reigning emperor is just a puppet.

I don't think it's clear if Sidious gradually withdrew from center stage or suddenly.

 

My reading was that Palpatine left most of the ruling to Imperial governors, but he still had final say. Remember Tarkin informing the Council that the Emperor had dissolved the Senate? If he were a mere puppet to Vader and/or Tarkin, I can’t imagine they would’ve allowed him to do such a bold thing if their aim was to keep up the illusion that the Republic was still a thing. At least I can’t imagine Vader allowing it.

He wasn’t open about his Force abilities because he probably didn’t think it necessary. Vader was the machine (no pun intended) he needed, was all he needed while Palpatine directed things from the background. Remember, this is the same guy who managed to use words and charisma to fool a Republic and the Jedi for 13 years before he commenced his grand coup. I highly doubt he’d go back on it once he’s in power.

 

It was definitely not very many if any at all honestly.

 

Which era are we talking about? During the PT era I'm pretty sure no one besides maybe Maul or Dooku ever heard of a "Darth Sidious". He was strictly a figure for his Sith apprentices, and I'm sure the public never ever heard that name. That's in-universe though. From the question it's not entirely clear if the question is IU or referring to the audience. I assure you I was always 100% certain from the day TPM was announced that Chancellor Palpatine was the one who would become emperor. I mean, it's even in the SW novelization from 1976, and I wonder how anyone familiar with the OT could have missed that. It's even the same actor playing the role! But as I said, in-universe, the general population certainly was not aware of the Sith comeback, when even the "wisest" of the Jedi never foresaw it. So.... when not even Yoda or Windu suspected Palps as being a Sith, how could the normal population?

 

In canon, Mas Amedda knew by Revenge of the Sith; in Legends, Sate Pestage knew both his public and Sith identities, while Kinman Doriana thought they were separate individuals.

 

Me, but to be fair I was already a huge SW fanatic even back then. For example, my dad, who isn't a SW fan, took me to see TPM when it first came out. And even he knew some thinks (like Anakin becoming Darth Vader for example). But, at age nine, I still had to explain to him that Sheev and Sidious were the same person, and that he becomes The Emperor later on.

 

I think the general public very much knows that he is still the guy in charge. Just look at the end of ROTJ, the Empire has lost a battle and the Emperor is dead, but the Empire doesn't vanish into thin air right in that moment. People still went out to celebrate on Coruscant and toppled a statue of the Emperor, a pretty clear sign that he was the symbol of the Empire and not someone who was considered merely a puppet or even missing entirely. After all, if he was a good guy or merely a victim of the military, people wouldn't lash out against him like that.

It also doesn't require absence of a leader for people to absolve him of all wrong-doing. After WW2, many Germans blamed atrocities on Hitler's group of underlings, stating that if Hitler had known about them he would have stopped or prevented them.

 

Oh, the general public knew the Emperor was a bad guy, but rather they knew he was a Sith Lord or just a power hungry individual, that's not known.

Granted, it's Legends, but in the Jedi Academy Trilogy, the head of the Imperial academy, derides Force users, and when it's pointed out that Palpatine was one, he made excuses. So, I would think that only the upper echelons of the Empire knew the truth (and fewer people pre-Empire).

 

Don't forget the Trade Federation. Pretty much all the higher-ups in that organization knew who "Darth Sidious" was. I also always kind of figured Viceroy Gunray had to have figured out that Palpatine and Sidious were the same guy. For one, they sound just alike. There are also a lot of dots to connect. This guy Sidious shows up and gets them to attack a small planet. Then, the senator of that planet becomes Chancellor, then Supreme Chancellor, etc.

I think a lot more people knew the secret of Palpatine than let on, but didn't say anything out of fear.

 

This doesn't follow. When Palpatine pulls the hood up over his face and deepens his voice, it's like Clark Kent taking off his glasses adjusting his posture. Within the reality of the movies, this is a foolproof disguise. Otherwise, Palpatine wouldn't rely on it.

Those dots only connect if you already suspect they're the same person. Otherwise, it's just an opportunistic politician taking advantage of the fallout from Sidious's scheme. You might as well accuse George W. Bush and Osama bin Laden of being the same person since the 9/11 attacks benefited Bush politically.

Nute Gunray has no idea Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. Palpatine would never risk that information getting out to someone he couldn't trust absolutely to keep his secrets. Nute Gunray is certainly not someone he would put that level of trust in.