How Many Simultaneous Battles in AOTC???

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Qey Santim, Mar 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    My graduate professor (not teacher) wrote the book on NURBS (Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines, which I'm sure more than a couple of people at ILM have copies of in their desks at this moment ;-) He also was friends of Bezier, the inventor of Bezier curves and other industry luminaries. I doubt very much anything you or I post will enlighten him further , we're not that smart. ;-)

    I know that you're saying the puppet is a real physical entity, what I'm saying is that just because something is computer generated it doesn't mean that a physical representation of it would look more "realistic".

    Take inanimate objects as a simple example, there are many instances of renderings of inanimate objets that model real life, that almost nobody could tell apart from the real thing.

    Now living organic like models are still difficult, but what you are implying is that a puppet will always beat a CG representation of an organic model and I think that's an oversimplification.

    Hey, you could be right, the Yoda CG could be crap for most people and I'm the exception, however making a blanket statement that a puppet will always look better than a computer generated object is just not right at all. Not only by the looks, but also by movement, and other qualities.
  2. Qey Santim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 1999
    star 1
    Augusto,

    I never made such a statement. Did I? If so, that wasn't my intent.

    What I am saying is that the old Yoda puppet still looks better than the CG Yoda. IMO

    One day, that will probably change...but "one day" is not yet.

    CG, when it comes to Yoda, is very easy to see. Other things might be harder to tell if they are real or CG.

    I still say ILM did a GREAT job with Jar Jar. I'm not sure why the same can't be said of Yoda. It's probably because we never saw a puppet Jar Jar.
  3. augusto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 4
    Well, obviously I think Yoda looks better than the puppet at this point, however I still think they haven't tweaked him completely until the final film.

    I know that could be used as an excuse, but I remember not liking the battle droids in the first TPM trailer and they were much improved when the movie came out.

    So I have no problem with CGI Yoda, except that in a couple of scenes they could fix his color scheme to match the live action a bit more. However, you can also see this problem in some scenes with live actors on top of the virtual sets, so that's not a CGI Yoda problem in those cases.
  4. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    I heartily agree with Qey Santim, both on the original topic of the thread and on the superiority of the ESB Yoda puppet to the CGI one.

    The shuffled end-battles in ROTJ and TPM are distracting and disorienting. In the 1977 SW film we had just the one, and it is the best and most emotional space battle yet.
  5. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    I could answer this very easily without giving away too much, but it's still a spoiler and that's not why I'm here.
    If you want to know just how many simultaneous battles there are in AotC, PM me.
    The RotJ battle was no worse than the other OT ones. With the common fan exception of the Ewoks anyway. The duel had meaning, the space battle had meaning, the ground battle had meaning. It was very easy to follow.
  6. Qey Santim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 1999
    star 1
    Wascally,

    Please don't spoil me/us! :)

    Of course they had "meaning" but just how important were they to the overall plot? The real focus was, of course, Luke, Palpy and Vader. You can dispense with the other two battles in ROTJ and not lose anything from the story.

    Augusto,

    Well, now you bring up the problem with the overuse of CGI in what we see in the trailers of AOTC. Probably best discussed in another thread. :)

  7. Padawan Coalesce Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 1
    Qey Santim once again I have to agree with you. I myself remember thinking "Oh well Palpy would have died anyways when the Death Star 2 blows up" But then I think about it and that's not the point. The point was Vader's Redemption. It was a distraction. Luke and Vader save the galaxy, and next thing you know the point is mute.
  8. Harlowe Thrombey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 2
    I agree that the ending of TPM was a bit too contrived. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with ROTJ. Think about it, it is the end of the series and you have to wrap everything up. Han has to accomplish his mission to even give the rebels a chance at blowing up the Death Star. Everybody would probably agree that the Endor sequence is the most boring of the three plots. But the space battle is amazing! So is the final Jedi battle. Its a case where you can't have Han and Leia and the rest of the gang helping Luke battle his father-that's something he has to do on his own. And the ending is different than TPM because Han accomplishes his mission, and then Endor isn't really shown...we then move back to Luke vs. Emperor and the final attack on the DS. It makes a lot more sense than just "They all broken!" TPM was definitely pandemonium at the end, but I think the key is whether or not the battles make sense in the context of the movie...whether they're furthering the story/plot or whether they're just there for the sake of being there. That's kind of what the middle and end of TPM felt like. It felt like George was like, "Okay, let's see how we can get them back to Naboo so we can have this huge, kick#$% battle."

    For the record, CGI Yoda is da bomb ;)
  9. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    Qey Santim is correct here. The cgi can not look MORE real than the puppet as the puppet is already real. At best it can look AS real as the puppet. The key though is that the cgi can look more *alive* than the puppet. Which I would agree with.

    Also I think most of the above discussion just devolved into a petty squabble over semantics. I agree with yodaman however that more battles does not neccessarily mean that the ending will be worse. And as far as how many battles in AotC? I doubt it'll be more than three. I'd guess like most of the others there will be a ground battle an air battle and a lightsaber battle.

    However, there is a way there could be 5 if you could have a known character in each one. Which would mean maybe Obi-wan versus dooku, Anakin in the air doing whatever, amidala trying to get something done on the ground. Mace and the other jedi on the ground as well with a DIFFERENT task and I don't know Palpatine or Jango or Boba doing something else who knows. You just need a vested interest in each one. That being said, I don't think it'll happen.

    As far as everybody winning their battles at the same time ... well, who cares it's a movie? And anakin's and jar-jar's victories were tied together.

    -JWAC
  10. Ardens_Furore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    The puppet Yoda isn't real. It's a puppet. They're trying to create a character that's as realistic as possible. CG can help acccomplish that. The CG Yoda is more believable than the puppet Yoda. He actually looks alive now, whereas the puppet always looks like a puppet and the skin doesn't even look like real skin. It looks really rubbery. In terms of "being more real than real" - you can't argue that because the puppet isn't really Yoda. If Yoda really were alive, then you could judge which one is more real - the puppet or the CG model.

    I love the parallelism that occur in the multiple battles, especially in TPM. I think the ending "battle" of ESB was by far the weakest of all the SW films, while the space battle in ANH is the strongest. The battles in ROTJ and TPM come right after ANH.

    The thing I keep in mind is that the films can't always concentrate on a few characters for the final battles - the fate of the galaxy is involved. ROTJ needed to have the epic space battle because that's what the Alliance existed for and we had to see that there was a very large confrontation. I would not have enjoyed it as much if it was only Luke, Vader and the Emperor.
  11. FOX1973 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2001
    star 1
    For my money, I like the CG Yoda.
    He looked 'real' in ESB (probably due to the great lighting), kind of fake in ROTJ (ironically, probably due to the lighting) and a rubber muppet in TPM (still rocked tho).
    The real challenge for the animators this time round is surely to make him move the way he moved in the previous installment's without looking like he suddenly became a really agile ankle-biter, but in CG.
    That's why the floating seat he sits on in the trailer is a nice touch, Yoda never really moved around too much before (due to technical constraints) and to have him bouncing around like wrinkly flubber just because he's CG would be inconsistent.

    Heh, forgot what the point of this thread was. Battles, that's right...
    How about just the one. One big, fat, messy battle, everyone's there, just scattered about? That's how the trailer looks anyway.
  12. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    I agree. RotJ would not be as interesting if it was just luke and vader and palpy. And then like, Han and Leia just stood around and watched.

    -JWAC
  13. ChewyBacker52 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Qey,
    I am very much in agreement with you in many of your points. I think that TPM definately lacked in quality of battles because they had 4 battles. JarJar's Gungan battle pretty much sucked and there wasn't enough of a space battle. Basically I was tired of watching Man versus Droids.
    I also agree that the CG Yoda looks less real than a puppet. As I also believe that the cg army of gungans looked less real than the ewoks and Jarjar looked much less real than Chewy.
    But I don't agree that ROTJ had a horrible ending by having too many battles. I think each battle had enough in it to make the whole climax work.
    I think that if AOTC had 3 well worked battles then it will be fine.
  14. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    Wow this post got off topic quick.

    Quite frankly I thought Jar Jar looked as real as Chewie did in most of TPM. The CG they did on him and the pod race was amazing in my opinion.

    I think there are at least two battles. One in the arena and another one outside of it with all the ships. Probably another as it looks like Dooku and Anakin are figthing as well.
  15. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    Surely there's fights all the way through AotC, not just at the end. I mean is it possible that the colliseum fight and Hayden vs Saruman take place in the middle somewhere?

    -JWAC
  16. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    I don't think we've seen the (if there IS one) lightsaber battle at the end of the movie yet. It looks like Anakin is in the arena. I guess he could get out somehow, but I dunno.
  17. Qey Santim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 1999
    star 1
    ChewieBacker,

    I didn't say the ending of ROTJ was "horrible" ending. What I did say was that, in my opinion, ROTJ had a less enjoyable ending than ANH or ESB...partly because of the three simultaneous battles....err or the two additional battles aside from, what I consider, the main confrontation (Luke, Vader, Palpy).

    JWAC,

    You could be right. Maybe those battles happen at different times...earlier in the film, but maybe not.

    I mean, Anakin VS Dooku...that's a CLIMACTIC battle if ever there was one.

    It just happens that there is so much "intensity" in the closing battle shots of the trailer, that I would find it hard to believe that any of these take place in the beginning or middle of the film.

    GL, like most directors, seems to save the biggest and baddest battles for the end, so if those aren't them, then we are really gonna be blown away by whatever he hasn't shown us! :)

  18. Padawan-kirky Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 1
    no i thought the ending to rotj was good. in tis one well i duno its heard anakin padme and obiwan are obviously in the arena theyre probably split up half here and half there casue u see republic gunships come down into the arena once it gets oughta control!
  19. rayrayjay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 1
    Sorry, I guess I didn't read enough threads before I posted. YES, I couldn't agree with you more! I am thinking we will get our wish! The trailors show about two I think, and I'm still holding out that maybe some of those events take place earlier and we could get a 1 way ending...but thats a long shot.
  20. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    Apologies if this has been posted before.

    "We call it 'Reel Six'," says editor Ben Burtt with glee. "Twenty minutes of solid action in four different places, all intercut. It's a little different this time around, but basically it's the same type of idea."
    UK Empire 156
  21. Count_Draku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 1
    Here is my opinion:

    ANH: Good last battle, although somewhat
    repetitive.
    ESB: Loved watching Luke and Vader duel it
    out. Never cared about Lando and
    leia.
    ROTJ: Cared about Luke/Vader, cared somewhat
    about the Ewok battle on Endor, never
    cared about Lando in space.
    TPM: Cared about Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-wan,
    cared somwewhat about Padme, mildly
    amused by Jar Jar, never cared about
    Anakin in space.

    The way I see it, though, it is important to have some breathing time during the middle of the important storylines. It makes the anticipation for the lightsaber battles that much sweeter.

    As far as Yoda goes, I think I like the CGI yoda better. I've rewatched ESB, ROTJ, and TPM after watching the AOTC trailers, and the old yoda looks like a puppet. Thus, in the end, you have a choice between a yoda that looks like a puppet, or a yoda that looks like a cartoon. I'll take the cartoon, because it's mouth lipsyncs with the dialogue. It certainly isn't something to get worked up over.
  22. GORILLA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 2
    I think there's going to be at least three simultaneous battles in AOTC. Here's what I think will happen. 1)Anakin has a lightsaber duel with Dooku. 2)Kenobi and other Jedi fight in the arena battle and 3)I believe there's a another major battle on a different world. Remember there is a separtist movement in the galaxy. Planets are ceceding from the Republic, much like the southern states broke off from the Union and formed the Confederacy prior to the Civil War. This suggest to me that, just like the Civil War, you will have battles on multiple fronts. To me it would look pretty stupid if there's this big surge of planets that break off from the Republic and there's only one battle on one world that decides the fate for the rest of them. In real warfare this doesn't happen.
  23. Spynal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 1998
    star 2
    In real warfare? LOL, since when have we had "real" warfare on more than one planet in human history? it's only fought on one planet in AotC, believe me. There are good reasons why they attack that planet.
  24. GORILLA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 2
    No need to be a smartass Spynal. You know what I mean, multiple battles at the same time that occur great distances from each other.
  25. Spynal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 1998
    star 2
    we have episode 3 to show warfare on multiple planets. The clone wars are just beginning here, actually this is the confrontation that sparks it all. so I wouldn't expect it to be more than one planet. The Jedi are focusing their skills on the heart of the matter, geonosis. I can't divulge any spoiler info here, but there are reasons why they have knowledge enough to attack that planet.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.