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How many times did the Phantom Menace FAIL ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by ben_07, Nov 7, 2004.

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  1. ben_07

    ben_07 Jedi Master star 4

    Aug 8, 2002

    My belief is that Darth Sidious just wanted Darth Maul to reveal himself to the Jedi by killing Qui-gon and Obi-wan, so the Jedi would know that the Sith were in the Trade Federation, which just conquered Naboo, so the Republic must go to war with the Trade Federation, and should start immediately building their own Droid Army. The fall of Naboo would have sympathy for Palpatine, he'd become Chancellor, and would gain his emergency powers right away because of the war. And eventually the Republic would be victorious, Palpatine would be Emperor, the Jedi would be dead, and Darth MAUL would be his enforcer.

    BUT Anakin was discovered and brought to Coruscant, and Senator Palpatine soon sensed his Anakin's Force-potential. He decided to have Amidala get rid of Valorum for him. He willingly sent Darth Maul to his death on Naboo. And when she won on Naboo he decided he would need a better army for the Republic, and a stronger oppostion. So he recruited Count Dooku who just left the Jedi because of his former padawan's death. Count Dooku imposed as Syfo-Dyas to represent the Republic, and ordered the Clone Army after meeting Jango Fett. Count Dooku got the Trade Federation AND all the Commerce Guilds, AND over a thousand systems unahppy with the corrupt Senate to secede. And we know what happens in Episode 2. And all this time Chancellor Palpatine has been guiding Anakin closer to the darkside. And we know what happens in Episode 3.

    Palpatine never predicted only FOUR things.

    1.) DISCOVERY of the Chosen One--(Episode I)
    ^Qui-gon Jinn caused.

    2.) DEFEAT of the Chosen One--(Episode III)
    ^Obi-wan Kenobi caused.

    3.) FAILURE of the Chosen One--(Episode IV)
    ^Luke Skywalker caused.

    4.) REDEMPTION of the Chosen One--(Episode IV)
    ^Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One himself, caused.

    Do you think this is accurate? OR do you think that everything was in Palpatine's plan up to his death? Do you think he failed to see the future more times than this?

    What do you think, how many times did the Phantom Menace of the saga fail, fail seeing the future, or his plan failed so he had to change it?

  2. AdamBertocci

    AdamBertocci Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 3, 2002
    First of all... obligatory "lol teh phatnom menace failed lots of times cuz it was a crappy movie adn had jarjar in it! LAFFO!" answer. Just to get it out of the way. :p

    Now, on with the thread.

    I think Palpatine might have known about the prophecy, and that someone might have been discovered a chosen one. It seems like something an intelligent Sith might have learned about somewhere down the road.

    He certainly does seem to put that situation to his advantage, so, props to him.

    Rick McCallum loves you!
  3. BauconBatista

    BauconBatista Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 24, 2004

    You had me going there.
  4. DamonD

    DamonD Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 22, 2002
    I think that's Anakin defeat in Ep3 was the first major upset in Palpatine's plan. The loss of such a useful and powerful tool would've been very difficult to overcome, without a handy apprentice to help out.

    It would've seriously put Palpatine's plans back if he hadn't been able to salvage something of the situation by recreating Anakin in the personna of Vader.

    Even the loss of Maul, irritating as it was, was something that could be overcome while still sticking to the plan. The loss of Anakin at such a crucial stage of establishing the Empire would've been tough to take.
  5. 7-7-7

    7-7-7 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 15, 2002
    I haven't seen anything as of yet to suggest that Palpatine's interest in Anakin was based on an obscure and little-known prophecy instead of an urgent need for a powerful and malleable Force-sensitive to turn into a Padawan.

    Throughout the PT, Palpasidious and his cronies get their plans thrown into a twist repeatedly, often coming close to bringing disaster down upon them. He just happens to be a very quick-witted and intelligent individual capable of thinking on his toes and adjusting to situations as they arise to suit his needs. I would have to say that the Phantom Menace failed many more times than those four, but he always managed to recover and was stronger as a result (except for that last mistake where he took a swan-dive down the ventilation shaft)

    1) Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon weren't killed before reaching Naboo
    2) Padme didn't sign Gunray's treaty
    3) Padme and the Jedi escaped Naboo
    4) Darth Maul failed to stop the group on Tatooine
    5) Sio Bibble couldn't get Padme to return to Naboo and surrender
    6) Padme actually arrived at Coruscant with the Jedi in tow
    7) Padme refused to stay on Coruscant where Palpatine could milk her for all she's worth in the Senate
    8) His Trade Federation cronies get their excrement systems handed to them on a platter on Naboo, they break their treaty with Sidious and run for the hills
    9) Padme regains Naboo, Palpatine can't use that crisis as leverage to give him any more power
    10) Maul gets offed, the Jedi thrive

    and that's just the most obvious mistakes from TPM alone. Wait until AOTC rolls around, and then he's really hanging on by his fingernails

    1) The military creation act vote gets delayed until Padme returns to Coruscant
    2) Padme actually arrives at Coruscant, marches in on the senate, and blocks the vote
    3) Assasination attempt redux fails
    4) The Jedi learn that there is something bigger in the works here. They get a view of Jango's armor, get the dart, and have a lead
    5) Obi-Wan finds out about Kamino. There goes his secret army to take over the Republic with or to use as leverage in a cold war against the Separatists
    6) The Trade Federation is reluctant to join Dooku, who has to be especially careful to make sure that Gunray doesn't find out that he's actually working for Sidious, the guy who screwed them over ten years before.
    7) Padme goes into hiding, with Anakin. Not only can she not be found, but if she were to be found, killing her might require killing a potential follower of Sidious
    8) Jango is scared off Kamino by Obi-Wan, where he was supposed to stay for the duration of the crisis.
    9) Jango leads the Jedi to the secret army on Geonosis
    10) Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme get captured. It turns into an international incident, and war almost breaks out. Palpatine is about to lose his most promising apprentice. Hot war is inevitable, his clone army has been revealed, the Separatists may or may not crumble just under the threat of armed conflict.
    11) The Jedi go to Geonosis, then things really get bad. Yoda hijacks Palpatine's secret army and uses it for his own purposes. War starts in earnest (luckily, the Separatists stand firm after a disasterous first round) The Jedi find out about Sidious and that Dooku is actually a Sith. So much for having Anakin and Dooku working together for his goals. One of them will have to go, but first, three years of long and brutal warfare to secure his position while micromanaging both sides of the war, making sure the Senate doesn't get out of hand, and that he doesn't lose power to a sudden Separatist victory or to a Senatorial backlash or the possible loss of Anakin, forcing him to stay with Dooku for the long haul.
  6. NeoBaggins

    NeoBaggins Jedi Master star 5

    Oct 28, 2003
    Awe, man. I thought this was a Rodney King session on TPM.
  7. Yazid_Skywalker

    Yazid_Skywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 10, 2002
    Impressive, most impressive. But u must remember wad dooku said to Palpy at the end of AOTC..."Master, the war has begun" and the reply "good, good HAHAAHAHA"
    doesn't that imply that he had planned the starting of the war and if you trace it back to 7-7-7 's theory than it wud mean that the mistakes made in ep II were intentional to spark the beginning of the clone war. From the discoveing of the clone war to the 200 jedi being brought across the galaxy. I wudn't want to relistthe long list of 7-7-7 . Just back track and u'll know wad i mean. without his ' mistakes' , the war, wudn't have begun...
  8. Alowicious_ReX

    Alowicious_ReX Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 15, 2004
    I agree with Yazid. There can only be two sith at any particular time...and two sith can't walk into the Republic and take it over alone. Thus, Sidious has to manipulate an already failing system in order to gain a seat of power. The majority of his failings are intentional. If he would've done everything to a tee the Jedi would've caught wind of his role in the political system earlier and he could've gained enough support to get elected Supreme Chancelor or to declare himself Emperor. He clouded the light side through manipulation and falsities. Maul's whole mission was to throw the Jedi off track; to make the Sith known and to make the Jedi worry a little. He was a just a well trained bulldog...if he died or not it didn't matter his purpose got served ("At last we will reveal ourself to the last we will have revenge"). Dooku was implimented in order to start a war...and again confuse the Jedi. Palps gave the army to Yoda; he knew the Separtist would be defeated eventually and that Dooku had plans to overthrow him. What better way to get rid of him than to start a war and have the army win that he controls. It politically looks good, and by the time the Jedi realize what is goin' down he would've already wiped half of them out. By the time RotS takes place ol' Palps is right were he needs to be...and he has a more loyal candidate for his apprentice, which also happens to be the Chosen One. If by chance Anakin was to realize he could overthrow Sidious (either for Good or Evil) his tragedy and disfiguration prevents that. Now Vader has to be a loyal servent...his free will and power has been stripped from him. And is this by mistake? It could be but whatever happened, mistake or not, Palps made it work to his advantage.
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    May 4, 2003
    I agree with 7-7-7, there is no way that Palpatine could've made all those mistakes intentionally. It doesn't make sense. Observe.

    1. Darth Maul- Palpatine trained him from birth. Why would you spend twenty years training someone to essentially show up and then die? It doesn't make sense. Not at all a good use of resources.

    But further, how could Maul have been "to throw the Jedi off?" Before Maul, the Jedi didn't even believe that the Sith still existed. So they weren't even looking for him. Then after Maul, they knew there was another Sith. So basically, Maul put them on Palpatine's trail, not shook them off of it. Why would he do this? It makes a lot more sense that he wasn't going to reveal himself until he was ready to actually do something, and thus, that the person he chose to "reveal the Sith" would be his real, primary, and sole apprentice.
    Thus, his death would have been a mistake.

    2. The Kamino Dart- This is in the string of supposedly "planned" clues that led the Jedi to start the Clone Wars. While Palpatine clearly planned the Clone Wars, is this really how he wanted it to start? I'd say no. For one thing, the Jedi attacked when the major players of the CIS were just coming together to agree on their rebellion. That would be like the British Army surrounding the US Senate when they were signing the Consitution. With all the leaders there, the Jedi could've stopped the Clone Wars before they even got started. A pretty risky move, compared to letting the war start at a time when the leaders of the CIS weren't vulnerable. Not to mention the fact that the CIS was still building its army (as were the Kaminoans

    Or from another angle, look at how improbable it was for Obi-wan to know about that dart. He just happened to know someone who could identify it--not even the Jedi Archives could. How would Palpatine know that Obi-wan would have a friend that knew? What if Kenobi hand't been able to find out? The whole "plan" would've been ruined. Or how would he know Jango would go to Geonosis? What if Jango had went to Nar Shadda, or back to Mandalore, or something? There are too many factors here that Palpatine couldn't control. The more factors he can't control, the worse of a plan it is. Therefore, I'm led to conclude that he didn't plan this at all.

    3. Anakin's Disfigurement- How does this help Palpatine? I'm spoiler free, but we've known for years that Anakin gets his wounds from Kenobi, not from Palpatine. So that's not likely to make him more loyal to Palpatine. In fact, it seems that whatever made Anakin loyal to Palpatine, it didn't have anything to do with his injuries. So if he was loyal without them, wouldn't be more useful to have a loyal non-injured person than a loyal, injured person? And frankly, how do Vader's injuries ensure he can't overthrow Palpatine?

    Basically, I see Palpatine as equal to Ackbar. They both are obviously somewhat skilled. However, they just as much of the time win by sheer luck, and are left with their mouths gaping wide opne, and making stupid, shocked comments like "It's a trap!!!"
  10. Darth_Mimic

    Darth_Mimic Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 30, 2003
    RE: Anakin's Disfigurement.

    If Palpatine wants a symbol of terror to enforce his will, then Vader in the suit is much better than Anakin. This is, after all, from the same creative mind that decides to employ Death Stars.

    Actually, I think Palpatine's one big mistake was in not predicting Padme's return to Naboo. It seemd like he wanted a war (Clone Wars), but he also wanted a stronger Trade Federation. Look at how it set his plans back to have to wait for the CIS.
  11. DarthNigel

    DarthNigel Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 14, 2003
    Palpatine meant for the Jedi to discover the army, because that would reinforce his later accusation before the Senate, where he accuses the Jedi of being the duplicitous string-pullers behind the Clone Wars.

    "The Jedi planned this all: they ordered the Clones illegally, they (through Dooku) manufactured the Separatist Movement to create war and unrest, and they brought the Clones into action. This was all part of a plot to take control of the republic and impose their oligarchy on the galaxy. We have to destroy the Jedi Order permanently."

    This is why Jango used the saber dart - why else would a highly competent and professional bounty hunter use a weapon that had such a specific connection to one planet, the planet where he happened to be living at the time? True, it's a connection that was difficult to discern, but it had to be in order for the Jedi to believe they were one step ahead of their adversary, and not suspect that they were being led on a wild goose chase.
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    May 4, 2003
    I don't think that's very plausible, DarthNigel.

    I mean consider, if the Jedi Archives are really the most comprehensive archives in the Galaxy, there would have been plenty of items that could have appeared in those archives but nowhere else, and thus seemed "impossible" to trace. Yet, by choosing the Kamino dart (which doesn't appear in said archives) they are running a risk that the Jedi simply may never figure it out. That seems a pretty big chance to stake everything on.

    More importantly, of your two "Palpatine" accusations, only two of them could actually be used. That is, Palpatine could never say the Separatists were a manufactured movement without revealing his inside knowledge. After all, even the Separatists themselves seem to think it's real, and all the initial casualties were Jedi. Basically, unless Dooku himself came out and said he was working for the Jedi and staging the movement, there would be no way Palpatine could even begin to prove this accusation without implicating himself as a part of this same conspiracy.

    So yeah, I just don't buy that the Kamino dart was intentional. If you think about it, that means Padme's two assassination attempts were also intentional failures, and that the Changeling intentionally got caught. All this seems overly complicated.
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