How many times have the films made the books/EU invalid?

What I mean is, how many times have the SW movies made certain things in the SW books or other EU sources invalid?

Take for instance, the TPM novel. In the novel, it stated that Qui-Gon's master was over 400 years old. Obviously this is not true as we later find out in AOTC. Then there's the ROTJ novel, which stated that Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers. Again, this is something that is invalid according to the films.

How many other instances have there been where the films and the books don't agree? Further more, does anybody think that one day Lucasfilm will re-release novels like TPM and ROTJ and fix the mistakes so that they coincide with the films, thus making the entire SW saga (movies, books, comics) complete?

 

There are zero instances in which the films contradict the books.

First of all, nothing in the films says Obi-Wan and Owen are not brothers.

Second of all, just like Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon had multiple masters. Dooku was one, but Qui-Gon also had another who was over 400 years old (possibly Yoda or Yaddle).

 

First of all, nothing in the films says Obi-Wan and Owen are not brothers.

Perhaps, but Lucas himself said that he scratched the idea of having Obi-Wan and Owen brothers, and at this point in the films, it wouldn't make any sense in having Obi-Wan and Owen related, so that part of the ROTJ novel is now invalid.

Second of all, just like Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon had multiple masters. Dooku was one, but Qui-Gon also had another who was over 400 years old (possibly Yoda or Yaddle).

As far as I know, Yoda is the only Jedi Master who teaches the younglings. GL stated something along those lines during the AOTC audio commentary. So the only Masters Qui-Gon could have been taught by were Yoda and Dooku, and neither of them are of the age 400.

 

Perhaps, but Lucas himself said that he scratched the idea of having Obi-Wan and Owen brothers,

PPOR

and at this point in the films, it wouldn't make any sense in having Obi-Wan and Owen related,

I never said they were related. They're not. They are brothers in different ways. This is extremely old news.

so that part of the ROTJ novel is now invalid.

No it's not.

So the only Masters Qui-Gon could have been taught by were Yoda and Dooku, and neither of them are of the age 400.

Yoda is over the age of 400 is he not?

 

[voice_yoda/]Over 900 years train jedi have I. My own council will I keep on who is to be trained.[voice_yoda/] Yea. I think that is over 400.

 

I agree with you about the Obi-Wan/Owen thing, ST.
Thats plain, Lucas changed his mind on this and that negates the point in the ROTJ novel (but it doesn't make the novel itself invalid).

And since Qui-Gon was referring to ONE specific master, the one who trained him to Knighthood, then this too is negated. Though TPM is still very valid in its other contibutions.

There are a few more incidents (of which don't come to mind right now specifically but of what I recall) which the prequels have negated certain EU aspects.

The time spans of Clone Wars from, I think, Zahn's novels springs to mind.

The EU'ers will maintain (like Bib here) that there are no contradictions, negations or invalidities but this ignores the facts of the matter. And also they fix it by providing an explanation, which isn't the point.

If its written in the book and proven different there is a contradiction, you can't change that view with an explanation. You have to accept that the books have been compromised.

 

Primarily from Lucas's own end of things, though.

When Timothy Zahn set out to write his first three novels, he was personally provided with dating information upon the Clone Wars and that era from Lucas himself. This was duly accepted, and incorporated into the storyline of the series.

It was when Lucas backpedaled at the eleventh hour, choosing to mine his newfound gleeful fascination with precocious superhuman moppets, that the decision to futz with Anakin and Obi-Wan's ages for The Phantom Menace was made, throwing off the first Zahn books' chronology...but this itself was later fixed, in his Hand of Thrawn duology.

To be fair, I certainly stand by Lucas's right to make whatever changes he may wish in the films as creator, for good or ill; but it sets something of a philosophically questionable precedent, in terms of the goodwill that could conceivably get flushed down the drain whenever last-second changes like these are made.

 

The contradictions happen occasionally yes, but really what do WE think a year or a day is in GFFA? On some planets a year could be 18 months of our days. There is always a way to worm out of continuity errors you see. It's what keeps the C-word the C-word.

 

oopsie

 

Take for instance, the TPM novel. In the novel, it stated that Qui-Gon's master was over 400 years old. Obviously this is not true as we later find out in AOTC. Then there's the ROTJ novel, which stated that Obi-Wan and Owen are brothers. Again, this is something that is invalid according to the films.

First, like Bib said Qui-Gon was trained by another master in his earlier years, most likely Yoda as previously stated. Obi-Wan told Luke in ANH that Yoda had trained him and that "fix" was created in AOTC. So why is it impossible for Qui-Gon to have been trained under a different master? Why is this instance so special when compared to the Obi-Wan/Yoda incident?

As for Ben and Owen being brothers, well that depends on a certain point of view. Soldiers in war will tell you that there is a bond stronger than the brotherly bond that unites them all. They are willing to fight and die for each other, so it is certainly possible to consider someone a brother when there is no blood shared.

Also, a year on Venus is 10 Earth months (IIRC0, while a year on Pluto takes numerous Earth years. So it is certainly possible to have the CW timeline established in TTT to use another planet's dating system. Also, the last time I read TTT, I never noticed a problem with the timeline. Perhaps because I had read the book years ago and was aware of the fix today. I just can't recall the line or two where the "contridiction" occurs.

 

First, like Bib said Qui-Gon was trained by another master in his earlier years, most likely Yoda as previously stated. Obi-Wan told Luke in ANH that Yoda had trained him and that "fix" was created in AOTC. So why is it impossible for Qui-Gon to have been trained under a different master? Why is this instance so special when compared to the Obi-Wan/Yoda incident?

This instance with Qui-Gon's master is special because the films explain that Obi-Wan was trained both Yoda and Qui-Gon and show that it is not a mistake. In the TPM novel, it stated that Qui-Gon's master was "specifically" 400 years old, and that it was the master that trained him to Knighthood, thus, it couldn't be Yoda or Dooku. That's why it is invalid.

As for Ben and Owen being brothers, well that depends on a certain point of view. Soldiers in war will tell you that there is a bond stronger than the brotherly bond that unites them all. They are willing to fight and die for each other, so it is certainly possible to consider someone a brother when there is no blood shared.

I understand, but let's consider that there is no reason at all for Obi-Wan to consider Owen his "brother". In ANH Owen states Obi-Wan is a crazy old man, and for a majority of the time Obi-Wan spends of Tatooine, he barely comes into contact with Owen at all. So why would he consider Owen his "brother"? It's quite clear they don't fancy one another. Thus, that point is also invalid.

 

Then perhaps Qui-Gon was trained by another Jedi, one with a longer lifespan (than a human), such as a Wookie.

We don't know who trained Qui-Gon in his younger years (that I'm aware of anyways), so it is quite possible that it is someone unheard of so far.

As for Ben and Owen:

Yes, we don't know why Owen and Ben have bad blood, though I would wager it has to do with Luke. Ben wanted to take Luke and train him when he was older, but Owen would not have Luke train to become a Jedi and possibly another Vader. I can understand that.

However, they can still be "brothers" even if there is bad blood. Brothers in a secret that is. No matter how bad the blood was between the two of them, they and they alone (well besides Beru and Yoda) knew about Luke. So they were both brothers in regards to keeping Luke's life a secret, for if the Empire found out anything could happen. Quite possible the Empire would either come and take Luke or they would outright kill him and his guardians, leaving Ben with one other option. Leia. So you can bet your entire stake of credits that Owen and Ben would never betray Luke's identity to anyone. In that sense, they are brothers.

 

Nothing says that Yoda and Dooku were the only Masters that Qui-Gon had. If the TPM novel specifically says that his master was 400, no older or younger, then Qui-Gon obviously had a third master. It's not that uncommon.

 

As far as I know, Yoda is the only Jedi Master who teaches the younglings.

I don't think so, Yoda is a busy dude, someones gotta look after the Bear Clan. I'm sure there are other clans aswell, because there can't just be 16 new jedi every 4 years or so...

 

because there can't just be 16 new jedi every 4 years or so...

I think it's possible that there are only 16 new Jedi each year. Out of a galaxy of hundreds of trillions of creatures, there are only 10,000 Jedi. I think it's likely that less than 20 new Jedi are trained each year.

 

they were both brothers in regards to keeping Luke's life a secret, for if the Empire found out anything could happen. Quite possible the Empire would either come and take Luke or they would outright kill him and his guardians, leaving Ben with one other option. Leia. So you can bet your entire stake of credits that Owen and Ben would never betray Luke's identity to anyone. In that sense, they are brothers.

Then why keep his last name Skywalker? Seems pretty stupid to go to all that trouble and then keep his last name the same....

Madine out

 

One theory why Luke was allowed to keep his name is so that he would have a reason to want to redeem that name once he found out who his father was.

 

Where did you get that? I have never heard of that? I thought you are against EU.
I read your post in the other thread

Madine out

 

Why would I be against the EU?

That theory was in I, Jedi I believe.

 

Bib is probably the last person who would go against the EU.

I don't recall that being in I, Jedi, though it is certainly possible with all of the Corran/Luke conversations and Luke's lessons at the academy.

The reason why there are only 10,000 Jedi out of trillions of people has numerous answers. The first of which is that the Jedi only train students when they are babies, this way there is no emotional attachment to their parents. It also allows the child to be reared in the Jedi community, furthering their acceptance of their way of life. So if a kid is not discovered very early in life, then they will not be trained, unless there is an exception made.

The second reason is that there are much more Jedi candidates than there are Jedi. If a padawan fails their lessons, if a padawan can't accept their way of life, or any other of a variety of reasons, then they are shifted into the agricultural corp of the Jedi Order. So bascically this is where all of the washed up Jedi go if they still wish to serve the Order. There might only be 10,000 Jedi, but there could be millions of agricultural corp ex-padawans. (EU)

As for the Skywalker name, perhaps Owen wanted the name to remain the same as a reminder of his aunt. Perhaps, he wanted to keep it the same as a silent act of defiance against the Empire. To say that "here lives the son of Vader, a good kid, one with a good future", perhaps he thought that Vader would never know about a Skywalker on Tattooine. Perhaps, Ben wanted the name to remain so Luke could redeem the family name. Who knows, but no matter what, they shared the secret of Luke's lineage. You can't argue against that.