How MIDICHLORIANS still preserve the MYSTERY of the FORCE

"I think the Jedi as a whole are wrong for using Midichlorians as a basis for choosing Jedi."

THANK YOU!!! Someone else sees it!

"maybe midichlorians are more concentrated on Tatooine."

Maybe they are like "spice".



//waits.....

 

THANK YOU!!! Someone else sees it!

That doesn't mean I think they don't belong in the PT. I see them a flaw of the Jedi. They rely on something scientfic to chose the future. Science is all right at times, but not the end.

GL may not have intended that to happen, but it did.

 

True. So much for all that "deep richness" they were apparently supposed to bring.

 

So much for all that "deep richness" they were apparently supposed to bring.

Sounds like something Sidious would say

 

>>>>Agreed. Even worse was that TM Reloaded and Revolutions provided "answers" in the form of multiple rhetorical questions, which apparently only made sense to the characters. Whereas Lucas dropped the concept when he was done with it, the Warchowski Brothers(sp?) pretended to explain it over and over again.

I didn't watch Revolutions- might get around to it on DVD at some point seeing as I've seen the other two, but it feels more like a "might as well get this out of the way, seeing as I've sat through the other two", rather than something I'm excited about...

Anyway- why does it keep coming back to "Lucas dropped the concept"? I don't see anyone claiming that he "dropped the concept" of the Force as an energy field (never mentioned after ANH), or the Dark Side being "quick to join you in a fight" (never mentioned after ESB.)

Besides, AOTC expanded on the concept of the Jedi isolating themselves from society, which is what the midichlorian idea is ultimately an element of.


>>>>Therefore, if midis are about hearing and using the Force, then there are contradictions. If the midis are only about hearing the Force, then this could have been done without midis, since the concept was already believable in the OT (at least, to most people in this thread.)

How?

How would the Jedi choose their recruits at an early age, before they begin to develop abilities (such as podracing) which they could pick up on. How would they cut themselves off from society in the way that this physical test enables them to, before they have developed any personality or emotional attachments?

(Interesting to see the Jedi making mistakes in AOTC based on their emotional attachments to their fellow Jedi- Windu sparing Dooku, Yoda allowing him to escape to rescue Obi Wan and Yoda, Jedi steaming into Geonosis to rescue Obi Wan...)

And how would this tie in with Anakin having a special destiny, giving Obi Wan reason to want to keep him alive instead of killing him in the OT?

>>>Wow, if Go-Mer is actually going so far as to suggest there is something about TPM he doesn't find quite perfect, then I think the rest of us also have some soul-searching to do (and I'm being serious; often it seems, at least to me, that folks are unwilling to admit there is anything about TPM they like or dislike out of fear of being labeled something that they aren't).

Well, if this is turning into a "Star Wars Fans Anonymous" meeting (ignore my username for a moment), then I find the Tatooine part of TPM to slow down the pace too much. Kill Bill Volume 1 is a great example of how it's possible to establish characters and motivations without really starting the actual plot by keeping things moving at pace- however, Tarantino has the advantage of being able to flip between styles in almost every scene as well as use flashbacks and other devices that would clash with the distinctive Star Wars "style."

 

How much I miss when I've been away:


How would the Jedi choose their recruits at an early age, before they begin to develop abilities (such as podracing) which they could pick up on. How would they cut themselves off from society in the way that this physical test enables them to, before they have developed any personality or emotional attachments?

Jedi?s don?t need midis to find recruits. Midis are just one of many additional forms they use. Every lifeform is connected to the force and has a presence in it. Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence. This is something they rely more upon then Midis (as you see in the JC in TPM).

"SEE through you, we can!" -- yoda

By the way, When have the Jedi disconnected themselves from society that requires Midis to do that?


That doesn't mean I think they don't belong in the PT. I see them a flaw of the Jedi. They rely on something scientfic to chose the future. Science is all right at times, but not the end.

GL may not have intended that to happen, but it did.

Agreed! It?s a flaw, but, I don?t think the Jedi rely on them that heavily. They look at Midis as one of many factors. This would explain how and why they tested Anakin in the JC. They weren?t convinced just because he has a high midi count(and still aren?t in ATOC). I think its QuiGon that relied too heavily on the count. But he also had more than just that factor to convince him.


(Interesting to see the Jedi making mistakes in AOTC based on their emotional attachments to their fellow Jedi- Windu sparing Dooku, Yoda allowing him to escape to rescue Obi Wan and Yoda, Jedi steaming into Geonosis to rescue Obi Wan...)


That doesn?t necessarily mean that this happened because of attachment. And if it was, then my reaction is, ?Nobody?s perfect.?


sign! These long posts keep getting longer!

 

I am of the opinion that is does not have to be totally to-end-all direct corellation between force and midis. Perhaps the Jedi do not fully understand it's significance either. For example, people strong in the force tend to have a lot of midi's...however not everyone that has a lot of midi's has force ability. And the corollary as well, just because you have a low midi count...doesn't mean you can't have force abilities. It's just one factor that can contribute.

I'm not no medical expert, but an analogy may be if I have a high amount of cholesterol in my blood, it could be a good indicator that I will have heart disease or high blood pressure. But this is not a absolute...many people have high cholesterol and do not have heart problems or HBP. Same example for someone with low cholesterol, but still may have HBP and heart problems. Like Midi's it a good indicator...but not the end all for determination. Does that make sense?

 

The human body can feel "the force" flowing through it in the form of chi. It is not the sense of feeling, but a 6th sense that is just as tangible. There IS a physical aspect to in in which a body of energy interfacing with its own cells. In this way the idea of midichlorians is partially accurate to reality. It has to be developed the same way Luke did on Dagobah, by lowering one's mental differentiation between things, overcoming fear and anger, and other Jedi ways, grabbed from Eastern philosophy. The reason that these things are Eastern philosophy is because in that area of the world, people practiced developing this 6th sense and refining its techniques for thousands of years. In the West, it was either not discovered, ignored or squashed in favor of building an empire. Now the Chinese government is persecuting many QiGong practitioners, especially of the Falun Gong as studying it takes power away from the government over the ideals of its people. The Goverment knows that ancient philosophies associated with Chi development are so imbedded in its people that it uses the parts that promote passivity over action to deter the people from uprising while still allowing it to have some of its past. Perhaps in an ancient pre-Medeival time, this happened in the West as well, because this ability is inherent in all humans, and will evidence itself. Palpatine's quest in exterminating the Jedi is much like the quest of the Chinese government in exterminating the ancient traditions of Neidan.

 

Jedi?s don?t need midis to find recruits. Midis are just one of many additional forms they use. Every lifeform is connected to the force and has a presence in it. Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence. This is something they rely more upon then Midis (as you see in the JC in TPM).

But the Jedi can't be everywhere in the galaxy in order to find recruits. They likely believe it would be dangerous for children to grow up with untrained Force powers. That's why the Midichlorians are there: all the Jedi have to do is ask hospitals to check Midichlorians counts and submit the ones that meet the Jedi's standards. (I'm assuming this, but it does make sense based on the movies.)

This would explain how and why they tested Anakin in the JC. They weren?t convinced just because he has a high midi count(and still aren?t in ATOC).

I think they used tests on Anakin was because of his age and the fact Qui-Gon believed him to be the Chosen One.

 

I am of the opinion that is does not have to be totally to-end-all direct corellation between force and midis. Perhaps the Jedi do not fully understand it's significance either. For example, people strong in the force tend to have a lot of midi's...however not everyone that has a lot of midi's has force ability. And the corollary as well, just because you have a low midi count...doesn't mean you can't have force abilities. It's just one factor that can contribute.




A POSTER THAT TAKES AFTER MY OWN HEART
Thanks. I mentioned this concept many posts ago.

 

BenduHopkins, I didn't see that connection before. I am going to have to read up on some of that stuff.

 

>>>>Jedi?s don?t need midis to find recruits. Midis are just one of many additional forms they use. Every lifeform is connected to the force and has a presence in it. Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence. This is something they rely more upon then Midis (as you see in the JC in TPM).

"SEE through you, we can!" -- yoda

By the way, When have the Jedi disconnected themselves

Well, this is how I think the Jedi recruitment procedure works;

1) They check all children at a very early age for their midichlorian counts. This is before they have developed enough to form close relationships with their families, or develop the kind of skills that Anakin demonstrates in TPM which would be tell-tale signs. For this reason, they rely on a physical test.

2) With their families consent (I presume) they then take them away to raise them within the Jedi temple. They have no further contact with their families etc; instead, they are raised as Jedi.

Midichlorians might not be the most important step, but they seem to be Step No. 1: if a kid doesn't have a high midichlorian count, then they won't be noticed by the Jedi, and therefore won't stand a chance of being trained.

I have yet to see any evidence in the films that "Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence." Or that, if they do, then it's something that can be "sensed" by the Jedi.

>>>>That doesn?t necessarily mean that this happened because of attachment. And if it was, then my reaction is, ?Nobody?s perfect.?

I think it's a clear, direct result of that attachment- I mean, why else did Yoda allow Dooku to escape, if not because he was rescuing Obi Wan and Anakin?

The point is that the Jedi seem to be deliberately attempting to eliminate personal attachments completely- from taking the children away so young to the "forbidden attachment" rule we hear about in AOTC. This is clearly a ridiculous goal, and as we see, it results in them forming attachments within the order rather than with families or other people outside the Jedi order. But as we also see, it's a personal- specifically, familial- attachment which end up saving the galaxy; between Luke and Anakin. In other words, if there's a message in the Star Wars films, it's that to love your family is a good thing.

Essentially, the Jedi's self-imposed isolation from society is at the root of their fall.

 

Bendu Hopkins? That?s one of the much better analogies I have read. I don?t agree with all forms of it, but very thoughtful?thanks


JediMoonstruck>>>

But the Jedi can't be everywhere in the galaxy in order to find recruits. They likely believe it would be dangerous for children to grow up with untrained Force powers. That's why the Midichlorians are there: all the Jedi have to do is ask hospitals to check Midichlorians counts and submit the ones that meet the Jedi's standards. (I'm assuming this, but it does make sense based on the movies.)

I don?t think the Jedi are concerned about this, nor do they comb the galaxy for recruits. The Jedi belief is that all things happen for a reason and that every sentient being has a path in life. If someone was meant to be a Jedi, their paths will cross the JC in time (Like QuiGon?s crossed Anakins); it is considered the ?will of the force.? Not every potential becomes an apprentice. Not every trained apprentice passes the trials to become a Jedi. Its not a breed or genetics, but the ?will of the individual? that decides.

Children with strong potentials in the force are not necessarily dangerous. It takes skills and training to explore and surface such power.

I will say this, the JC mostly keeps track of children in the inner systems because records are already available and accessible. But just because they find a potential doesn't mean they immediately start training.

[/b]

 

I have yet to see any evidence in the films that "Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence." Or that, if they do, then it's something that can be "sensed" by the Jedi.

Re-watch the Saga again?Its all there either implied or pointed out.




I think it's a clear, direct result of that attachment- I mean, why else did Yoda allow Dooku to escape, if not because he was rescuing Obi Wan and Anakin?

The point is that the Jedi seem to be deliberately attempting to eliminate personal attachments completely- from taking the children away so young to the "forbidden attachment" rule we hear about in AOTC. This is clearly a ridiculous goal, and as we see, it results in them forming attachments within the order rather than with families or other people outside the Jedi order. But as we also see, it's a personal- specifically, familial- attachment which end up saving the galaxy; between Luke and Anakin. In other words, if there's a message in the Star Wars films, it's that to love your family is a good thing.

Essentially, the Jedi's self-imposed isolation from society is at the root of their fall.


Yes and no. I think your taking the concept a little to the extreme and out of context, but I see your point. I have to go now, but I?ll try to reflect on it later.

 

I don?t think the Jedi are concerned about this, nor do they comb the galaxy for recruits. The Jedi belief is that all things happen for a reason and that every sentient being has a path in life.

I didn't say they comb the galaxy. I said they rely on hospitals to give them the info they seek.


If someone was meant to be a Jedi, their paths will cross the JC in time (Like QuiGon?s crossed Anakins); it is considered the ?will of the force.?

This can't be true because if it was then the Jedi would have never had objected to Anakin being trained in the first place. The Jedi identfy Force strong children before they have a chance to devovlp any power from the Force (meaning before a year old).

Children with strong potentials in the force are not necessarily dangerous. It takes skills and training to explore and surface such power.

I said the Jedi likely belive that.

 

"This would explain how and why they tested Anakin in the JC. They weren?t convinced just because he has a high midi count(and still aren?t in ATOC)."

Absolutely agreed. Midis are clearly not the end-all, be-all criteria.

"I think its QuiGon that relied too heavily on the count. But he also had more than just that factor to convince him."

Agreed. He wouldn't have tested Anakin, had he not had suspicions about him. This is quite unlike the "everyone gets tested" philosphy some people seem to expect from AGFFA.

"I think it's a clear, direct result of that attachment- I mean, why else did Yoda allow Dooku to escape, if not because he was rescuing Obi Wan and Anakin?"

But Yoda learned his lesson. In ESB, he encourages Luke to sacrifice his friends.

"In other words, if there's a message in the Star Wars films, it's that to love your family is a good thing."

Agreed.

"Essentially, the Jedi's self-imposed isolation from society is at the root of their fall."

Well, they would not have "fallen" in the first place, had it not been for Palpatine. I see what you are trying to say, but I don't think it's that big a factor.

"Those who are potentially strong in the force have a stronger presence." Or that, if they do, then it's something that can be "sensed" by the Jedi."

"Re-watch the Saga again?Its all there either implied or pointed out."

Actually, Scott is correct. It is not simply "The Force" that is sensed, but familiarity.

 

I didn't say they comb the galaxy. I said they rely on hospitals to give them the info they seek.


Sorry...I know what you said. I was speaking in general to all on ?comb the galaxy.?

This can't be true because if it was then the Jedi would have never had objected to Anakin being trained in the first place. The Jedi identify Force strong children before they have a chance to develop any power from the Force (meaning before a year old).


Shimi Skywalker ? ?Is he to become a Jedi??
QUIGON ? ?Yes. Our meeting wasn?t a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident.?

Why not? The JC?s refusal to train Anakin had nothing to do with "coincidence". The JC didn?t refuse him of actually becoming a Jedi.

Yoda ? ?The chosen one the boy ?may be?. However, great danger I fear in his training.?

 

I don't have the script to TPM, but I do believe that in the beginning, after they test Anakin, they refused to train him. Qui-Gon pushed it and the Council said they would take the matter up again after events on Naboo was over with.

They didn't see it a the 'will of the Force' then.

 

Agreed. In fact, no reason is given for their turn-about, though I would imagine it has something to do with:

1) Anakin's "perceived" abilities in the Naboo battle (autopilot and accidentally firing missles = luck....."No such thing as...", my ass.)

2) Respect for Qui-gon's dying wish to have Anakin trained, as well as Obi-wan's promise to him.

Nothing about midi counts, though.

 

I'd just like to raise a point that some people may not have thought about.

Qui-Gon tells Anakin that the midichlorians speak to you telling you the will of the Force. Now, as Qui-Gon is the only character who mentions this 'midichlorians speaking to you' thing, we can't be entirely sure whether this is a fact, or whether it is just something that Qui-Gon believes. Don't forget that Qui-Gon is a bit of a maverick, and so he may have beliefs that are not quite the same as the other Jedi.

 

I would almost agree with you, but we do know that Yoda has a midi count as well, and Obi-wan is aware of it. What we don't know is Yoda's take on the whole thing - except for the fact that he and Yoda never mention midis in the OT, especially in Yoda's soliloquoy about the nature of the Force in ESB.

 

That's because Midichlorians AREN'T the Force. That's why they don't come up when people are talking about "THE FORCE".

 

I don't have the script to TPM, but I do believe that in the beginning, after they test Anakin, they refused to train him. Qui-Gon pushed it and the Council said they would take the matter up again after events on Naboo was over with.

Yes, that?s what happened and that?s what I said before. They refused at first to train him, but they never actually refuse him of being a Jedi. They saw Anakin?s desire to become a Jedi as a selfish one based on his fear. My impression was two things. That initially the JC wanted Anakin to follow his own path and settle his fears before embracing such skills and power, and perhaps their test of Anakin wasn?t really over?After all, Obiwon?s test and trial also occurred on Naboo against Maul.

They didn't see it the 'will of the Force' then.

Sure they did. That was part of the reason why they considered to test Anakin. The ?Nothing happens by accident/will of the force? is a universal Jedi belief. How about Obiwon?s, ?In my experience there is no such thing as luck.? They look at all events that way. To them, there is no ?coincidence?.


MebeJedi>>>

Agreed. In fact, no reason is given for their turn-about, though I would imagine it has something to do with:

1) Anakin's "perceived" abilities in the Naboo battle (autopilot and accidentally firing missles = luck....."No such thing as...", my ass.)

2) Respect for Qui-gon's dying wish to have Anakin trained, as well as Obi-wan's promise to him.

Nothing about midi counts, though.

----- OR -----

3) because Obiwon would not listen to the council and would train Anakin anyway. If this is the case, then permitting the training was a way of overseeing and influencing Anakin?s development since he was so volatile. Of course, no one took into account Palpatine?s corrupting influence on the boy since they didn?t know.

I would select ?all of the above? as they are all correct.

Nothing about midi counts, though.

Agreed. In fact, the JC showed little interest in the count. They were focused on Anakin?s strength in the Force and using the force to test Anakin.

 

They refused at first to train him, but they never actually refuse him of being a Jedi. They saw Anakin?s desire to become a Jedi as a selfish one based on his fear. My impression was two things. That initially the JC wanted Anakin to follow his own path and settle his fears before embracing such skills and power,

So a person can become a Jedi without being in the order? Is that what you're saying?

 

I would almost agree with you, but we do know that Yoda has a midi count as well, and Obi-wan is aware of it. What we don't know is Yoda's take on the whole thing - except for the fact that he and Yoda never mention midis in the OT, especially in Yoda's soliloquoy about the nature of the Force in ESB.

It doesn?t appear that the importance of Midis to Yoda is high at all. In fact, it now appears to me that they might not have as high a priority with QuiGon in TPM on Tatooine. After all, QuiGon had already sensed and expressed how the Force was unusually strong with Anakin and was so confident in Anakin to win the race (he never even finished in before) that he had placed a high risk bet knowing that somehow the outcome would work out. His comment to Obiwon questioning him, ?There is something about this boy.? His comment to Shimi, ?The force is unusually strong with him.?

All this happened before Shimi told QG that Anakin had no father. It was after that, that QJ tested the boys midi count.