How MIDICHLORIANS still preserve the MYSTERY of the FORCE

So a person can become a Jedi without being in the order? Is that what you're saying?

I would say ?yes? if Obiwon or QuiGon were going to train Anakin against the JC wishes. Remember, Luke in the OT studied on his own between the time Obiwon died in ANH and when he finally went to see Yoda in ESB. That was suppose to be three years I think?

But that wasn?t my point previously. What I am saying is that the JC never told him he could never become a Jedi. They just said that he would not be trained. That he was too old (which we know is not the case. Otherwise they wouldn?t have tested him in the first place). Think of it in the same context as Obiwon lying to Luke about his father (done for the right reasons). Anakin was not ready.

My impression was that the JC wanted Anakin to find his own way and to find his own path. To reflect, to settle his demons, his fears and his need to control the world around him. That way his choice of becoming a Jedi was a pure choice. Yoda was basically doing the same thing to Luke on ESB when Luke first got there.

It?s the classic (refusal to call) hero?s Journey that Joseph Campbell speaks of. The hero must (in time) prove his worthiness and readiness. In the process, the hero learns something of themselves.

 

But with Luke, all the Jedi were dead (that he knew of). He had no choice but to train himself until Obi-Wan appeared to him on Hoth and told him of a Jedi who still lived. That's a major difference between Luke and Anakin.

Also, we know of 20 Jedi who left the order because of AOTC. Dooku was not considered a Jedi (before it became known he was a Sith). Mace told Padme that because Dooku was once a Jedi, he couldn't kill someone. I think it's safe to say that the Council doesn't recogize Jedi outside the order and they weren't expecting Anakin to come to terms with his fears of his own free will.

 

"I think it's safe to say that the Council doesn't recogize Jedi outside the order"

It's also safe to say the Council doesn't expect an ex-Jedi to stop acting like a Jedi.

 

Maybe that's because those ex-Jedi grew up with those ideals. I highly doubt people throw away an entire set of beliefs just because they leave a place where they have grown up, unless those beliefs were self destructive to begin with and it doesn't look like the Jedi's are.

 

Methinks you missed my subtle reference to Dooku, as well as the Council's beliefs about what he's capable of...

 

Sorry, I'm one of those people you have to spell it out for.

So...spell it out!

 

"I think it's safe to say that the Council doesn't recogize Jedi outside the order"

Not "recognizing" an ex-Jedi doesn't mean they don't expect an ex-Jedi, like Dooku, to stop acting like a Jedi - something he later shows himself to be quite the opposite of.

 

Not arguing with that. That's what I said when I misunderstood you!

 

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you.

 

The human body can feel "the force" flowing through it in the form of chi. It is not the sense of feeling, but a 6th sense that is just as tangible. There IS a physical aspect to in in which a body of energy interfacing with its own cells. In this way the idea of midichlorians is partially accurate to reality. It has to be developed the same way Luke did on Dagobah, by lowering one's mental differentiation between things, overcoming fear and anger, and other Jedi ways, grabbed from Eastern philosophy. The reason that these things are Eastern philosophy is because in that area of the world, people practiced developing this 6th sense and refining its techniques for thousands of years. In the West, it was either not discovered, ignored or squashed in favor of building an empire. Now the Chinese government is persecuting many QiGong practitioners, especially of the Falun Gong as studying it takes power away from the government over the ideals of its people. The Goverment knows that ancient philosophies associated with Chi development are so imbedded in its people that it uses the parts that promote passivity over action to deter the people from uprising while still allowing it to have some of its past. Perhaps in an ancient pre-Medeival time, this happened in the West as well, because this ability is inherent in all humans, and will evidence itself. Palpatine's quest in exterminating the Jedi is much like the quest of the Chinese government in exterminating the ancient traditions of Neidan.

I must amend myself after reading more about the above groups. While the Chinese Govt. is certainly "overdoing it" in persecuting the Falun Gong, I believe the Falun Gong is not a healthy way to study QiGong. In true Taoism, one is encouraged not to be judgemental of others, whereas Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa) is a group that believes the gods' priority will be to weed out all homosexuals and stop the mixing of races once and for all. It promotes doomsday theories and offers that its only way to be saved is to follow the ideals and beliefs of Master Li Honzhi.

Real Taoism, and the Tao Te Ching itself promote the equality of all things. The philosophies of someone who has attained the Tao would not allow this type of harsh criticism of harmless people and ways of life.

MANY of the things taught in Falun Dafa are real Taoist, QiGong exercises and principles, but these are only imbedded in the group's philosophies to lure the many people of China who have some of these things imbedded in their history. Its leader is a flawed human who has attained many insights because of the principal that one's focus determines their reality. He has cultivated himself within the boundaries of his limited perception. His teachings can not be good for a culture of people who accept that all the things he shuns are really only individual characteristics which should be accepted.

Please see the following article to hear why I had to ammend my previous analogy between the Jedi and the Falun Gong practitioners.

http://www.myownmind.com/falungongteaches.cfm

 

"WOULDN?T it be interesting if we were to find out that Sidous has no large Midiclorian count in EP3."

I just opened this above topic in the 3SA Spoiler section?

I didn't have much time to totally write it out so its not quite what I wanted...lol But I am trying to keep it a balance discussion for all.

 

he he...


Ok. Just to flip sides. I actually have a story purpose for Midi's. It has been alluded to, but I don't believe specifically mentioned.

Comparisons of Luke's training to Anakin's training:

I think there are some pretty fascinating parallels and differences in each of their journeys to become a Jedi. Such as each were fascinated with a 'lightsaber' in early stages of the "Call".

So - back to Midi's.

Anakin learns of the Force through Midi's, a scientific interpretation.

Luke learns of the Force through a more philosophical and religious, or faith-based approach.

The difference is that Anakin tends to use the Force as a tool, where Luke learns to use it with respect.





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PS. I still stand by my original post. "Midis" were bad plot devices, at least in the films as they exist today.

 

>>>>Anakin learns of the Force through Midi's, a scientific interpretation.



I don't see what they have to do with Anakin's teachings...

There is kind of a parallel between the two, in the sense that Anakin was taught because of his being (possibly) conceived by the midichlorians. Luke was taught because of who his father was.

 

Yes, one of Qui-Gon's only lessons (teaching) to Anakin was 'what Midi's were and how they relate to the Force.'

It's about using the Force as a tool (scientific), rather than respecting it (religious).

As such, Anakin turns to the Dark Side to become more powerful - a tool. And Luke does NOT turn due to his Faith - religious.

 

Hell yeah! Hudnall has a good point-and here's another contected one: religion is inherently more mysterious than science. Science by it's vey definition 'explains' things and is itself explainable.
Religion explains things but is not in itself explainable.And it says so ! Which makes it more mysterious . By far !!! Hence when you take something that was closer to religion (OT Force) and give it a scientific bent( midiclrians)- it naturally loses a large portaion of it's mystery or mystic.
Hell call it a historical/social connection, but religion has overtones of mystery. It's veiled.
Science is unveiled and the very act of unveiling.
So if you inject science into ANY idea, you make it explainable- what is explained is not mysterious

Rationalise all you want, but that very act of 'rationalisation' robs the Force of a large portion of it's mystery.

Hence Hudnall's Luke/Anakin training comparison is very very apt !!

Forget your science- give me that ole' time Force religion

SHB JR

 

Well, I agree 100% with what you're saying about the mysteries of religions, and the Force being better off unexplained. But I don't understand what it is that midichlorians supposedly explain.

[EDIT- I love it when threads come back round to the subject of the title!]

 

Cool, Scotts with me on the religion is more mysterious vein. Just one more step my friend

Here goes : Midiclorians explain the mechanic that allows living beings to access the Force. It provides a measurable and scientifically measurable way of determining how much Force potential a person has.
(I'd argue that it explains why some can use the Force and others can't- not enough midis- but that's another discussion which has raged around hre.

In introducing a scientific *mechanic* that is measurable by mundane instraments, you take the Force away from being a totally religious idea 'mystical energy field' (OT)to being a partly scientific idea- 'measurable cells in your body that conduct the Force/will of etc.

It is in that step- in that move from the totally unexplainable in the mundane sense, just a question of faith, to having an aspect of the *mechanic* that can be measured in mundane terms- that the Force moves from religion to science.( Not a compleate science- after all the Force itself is still not explained/measured,- but the wedge has begun. If midis are a scientifically explainable phenomenom, then the Force will be too, it just needs to be explored.)

The very intro of a decernable mechanic makes the Force a science, not just a faith. Moves it from unexplainable to partly tackled by science.

It is no longer a religion and thus less mysterious by default. And that is my key prob with midis-
religion and science don't mix too well at all in SW.
Esp a mythic fantasy that it is.
It is this inherant contradiction that fuels much of the dislike for them

What do ya think Scott old man ?

SHB JR

 

>>>>Here goes : Midiclorians explain the mechanic that allows living beings to access the Force. It provides a measurable and scientifically measurable way of determining how much Force potential a person has.

But they don't explain that at all; they seem to explain how the Jedi select recruits. That doesn't mean that they "explain the mechanic that allows living beings to access the Force." This is speculation that simply isn't backed up anywhere in the films.

If you combine the "microscopic life forms" explanation of Qui Gon's with the "life creates it... makes it grow" and "the force is [...] generated by all living things" from the OT, then it follows that more midichlorians make the Force stronger with an individual (and incidentally, it's not implied anywhere that this is the only factor that influences that.)

But there's also a clear distinction between the Force being strong with someone and someone being strong with the Force- midichlorians are only connected (both in film and in Lucas' interviews, commentaries etc.) with the Force being strong with someone; the Force's influence over an individual- not the individual's influence over the Force.

So when it comes to "the mechanic that allows living beings access to the Force", it seems that midichlorians don't actually play a part at all, let alone explain it.

Midichlorians don't determine "Force potential" either (I still don't understand what that means.) Just look at Palpatine...

 

Here is my opinion on midis:

Midis contribute to SW, because they add a tangable aspect to the mysticism. My thinking is that GL wanted to round out the SW story, and so slowly added aspects to the PT which if interpreted, give you different perspectives on what the Force is. Many other famous stories throughout history have done exactly the same thing- attempted to combine different and apparently conflicting ideas together, without giving you a final "answer" that will resolve the contradictions. (Hint: this is intentional to keep people interested in the story ;-) )

One such contradiction midis contribute to is the duality of religion vs science. The scentific aspect added by the midis concept is that knowledge of the force (or rather STRENGTH of knowledge) is organically transmitted. This is not an entirely unknown idea. The force is "an energy field created by all living things"- i.e. the force itself is biological. Also, this fits it with the belief by many peoples that humanity (or even just life itself) is "special". Inanimate things have no connection to the force. Not that the force doesn't exist, just that they can't connect to it like biological beings can.

Also explained is that the "count" in a person apparently determines their force sensitivity. I believe that this is not anything more then a person being born with a talent for doing something. People want to object to this because there's an ideal that people like to believe, in that "a person can do anything". This never was, and never will be, entirely true. People ARE born with certain talents, and some are born with stronger talents then others. One of the main purposes of life is to pass on the best genes to ones own offspring. That doesn't presume that a person can't learn something, but it does mean that person might have to work harder to achieve their goal then someone else who's born with that ability. So a high midi count doesn't really mean that the person is born more powerful then someone else, it just means they have a greater adaptitude for connecting with the force, which is what the Jedis are looking for in potentials for training. Naturally they would want to train only those who possess the most natural abilities for using the force, because the order needs powerful jedis to carry out jedi duties. So the way I see it, midis are the innate ability, and the Jedi Code is the "way" or "path" that is studied. Certainly as one travels the path, one learns more about their own force connection, and develops a means of control over their abilities, growing them day by day.

I think people get hung up with the whole "count" thing, as if a person doesn't have a high count it means they are weak. The big thing I think people need to get is that ALL living things create the force, it's just the midi count reflects the ability to USE and have knowledge of the force. The difference I think needs to be empasized. Midis aren't the force, they are only what lifeforms use to connect to the force. The force itself is still mystical. For example, the movies repeatedly reference the "will" of the force, so obviously there is something there that is not directly under the force users control. Jedis constantly study the force for knowledge in an attempt to discover it's will, while dark jedi conversely try to USE the force, to manipuate it possibly against it's will. I don't think midis detract from this fact. Why the will of the force directs certain events the way they happen is something that will never be entirely discovered. Just as we have not yet been able to discover why bad things happen here on earth, like wars and other such evil things.

 

You're missing the point Scott !!

Why do the Jedi use Midis to select recruits ??

Answer : Because it is a *measurable* way to determine Force potential. It gives them a medical guide to follow.

What do they use to measure this organic componant that give them an indication of Force potential ?

Answer : Mundane scientific equipment- which is able to measure something the Jedi know to be connected to using the Force. It's not like the Jedi are using something arbitary- they know the little bugs they measure in the beaker mean a person is more/less able to hear the will of/use the Force.

Why is that a problem ?

Answer: Because no matter how you look at it, it is a part of the process or physical part(if you prefer that to mechanic) of using the Force that CAN BE MEASURED. By mundane equipment.

Midiclorians are a medic/biological aspect of the Force that science can explain.

You're tainting a religious idea with a sci-fi one/scientific one.
The unexplainable has a key part of itself explained- thus it is no longer totally unexplainable and thus it is no longer a religion.

The whole point of a religion is that it cannot be mundanely or scientfically explained- it is a faith issue.

The Force used to be that way.

The moment you can analyis part of it- it is now in the realm of *science*.
*Any part of it*

We are already agreed that science is not mysterious as religion is- so if the Force has taken on even a small aspect of science it is inhereantly as an idea
less mysterious than before.

Which answers the thread topic for ya !
As I said before- you're very analysis of midi's defeats the arguement of preserved mystery.

That which in any mundane manner can be quantified is science.
That which just is because it is, is religion.

The Force is now just a science that will slowly be reveiled.

Making a scientic element in the Force moves it from one camp to the other *as an idea*- hence loss of mystery

SHB JR

 

>>>>Why do the Jedi use Midis to select recruits ??

Answer : Because it is a *measurable* way to determine Force potential. It gives them a medical guide to follow.

That's pure speculation though- it doesn't come from the films. (And I still don't understand what "Force-potential" means. Surely Palpatine must have more "Force-potential" than Anakin? "I must obey my master" and all that?)

My answer: Because the Force tends to be stronger with those who have a higher midichlorian count, making it easier for them to "hear" the Will of the Force (which is fundamental to being a Jedi.)

Which, in turn, is explained in by the "explanation" of the OT; that living things create the Force.

>>>>What do they use to measure this organic componant that give them an indication of Force potential ?

Answer : Mundane scientific equipment- which is able to measure something the Jedi know to be connected to using the Force. It's not like the Jedi are using something arbitary- they know the little bugs they measure in the beaker mean a person is more/less able to hear the will of/use the Force.

My answer:
"Hear the Will of the Force"- yes.
"Use the Force"- No.

Also, because Jedi can't directly sense whether the Force is strong with someone at the early age that they want to recruit them (ie. before they have formed attachments to their families etc.) they use something else as an indicator. But this indicator has nothing to do with their ability to manipulate the Force.

What makes you so sure that midichlorian counts aren't just an arbitrary measurement the Jedi use? Like, for example, if you ran a basketball training college and only trained people over a certain height; sure, shorter people are much less likely to be able to become professional basketball players, but that doesn't mean that anyone over a certain height will automatically be good at basketball, does it?

Taking the analogy a step further, what if you could test a newborn child to see how tall (s)he would grow? Would that measurement be any better at determining their ability to play the game 20 years down the line?

>>>>Why is that a problem ?

Answer: Because no matter how you look at it, it is a part of the process or physical part(if you prefer that to mechanic) of using the Force that CAN BE MEASURED. By mundane equipment.

Midiclorians are a medic/biological aspect of the Force that science can explain.

But what makes you think midichlorians are so special?
What makes them different from any other life form?


I think midichlorians are supposed to simply be microscopic living things. That's all there is to it; living things generate the Force. It's that straightforward- there is no special process or mechanic or whatever you want to call it that has something to do with midichlorians and the way people interact with the Force. They are no more attuned to or connected to the Force than any other living thing. They don't form an intermediate measure through which a Jedi communicates with the Force, or relay signals between a Jedi's mind and the Force. They are just microscopic life forms, living inside our cells.

I mean, the Jedi could have determined who they would train by only selecting those with blonde hair and blue eyes; the result would be that only those with blonde hair and blue eyes would become Jedi; but that wouldn't make blonde hair and blue eyes a medical/biological aspect of the Force, would it?

>>>>You're tainting a religious idea with a sci-fi one/scientific one.
The unexplainable has a key part of itself explained- thus it is no longer totally unexplainable and thus it is no longer a religion.

The whole point of a religion is that it cannot be mundanely or scientfically explained- it is a faith issue.

The Force used to be that way.

The only thing about the Force that's been explained is that it's generated by all living things; that "life creates it, makes it grow." That means from the biggest space slug to the smallest microscopic life form, and that's

 

the_dark_and_light

>>>>Many other famous stories throughout history have done exactly the same thing- attempted to combine different and apparently conflicting ideas together, without giving you a final "answer" that will resolve the contradictions. (Hint: this is intentional to keep people interested in the story ;-) )

Exactly!

The perspective that TPM gives us is that the Force is all about midichlorians- but it's a false perspective. (Just like it gives the perspective that the good guys won in the end, or that Palpatine is a good, honest Senator, or that Qui Gon Jinn is a good Jedi and not a lying, stealing, cheating, near sighted fool who plays straight into Darth Sidious' hands...)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out in Episode III that Luke's midichlorian count is nothing more than average, but that it has nothing to do with his ability to use the Force.

>>>>The big thing I think people need to get is that ALL living things create the force, it's just the midi count reflects the ability to USE and have knowledge of the force.

That's the one point where I disagree- I don't think midichlorians are supposed to be connected to an individual's influence over the Force- ie. their ability to use it.

Coinsider Palpatine- from Naboo, apparently born in the Republic, but not trained by the Jedi. And yet he becomes an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. If this power was determined by midichlorians, then why didn't the Jedi train him?
On the other hand, if midichlorians just determined an individual's ability to "hear" the Will of the Force, well, why would a Sith Lord want to hear the Will of the Force?

 

"I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out in Episode III that Luke's midichlorian count is nothing more than average, but that it has nothing to do with his ability to use the Force.

Coinsider Palpatine- from Naboo, apparently born in the Republic, but not trained by the Jedi. And yet he becomes an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. If this power was determined by midichlorians, then why didn't the Jedi train him?"

Agreed. This is why I believe Palpatine has a low midi count. Whether or not the films will address this (unlikely) is another matter.

 

On Luke/Anakin's training from SHB: Hudnall has a good point-and here's another contected one: religion is inherently more mysterious than science. Science by it's vey definition 'explains' things and is itself explainable. Religion explains things but is not in itself explainable.And it says so ! Which makes it more mysterious . By far !!! Hence when you take something that was closer to religion (OT Force) and give it a scientific bent( midiclrians)- it naturally loses a large portaion of it's mystery or mystic.

Thanks, SHB. It ties in with the ANH novelization and some early ANH scripts about how the Jedi used to treat it scientifically. Though, my memory is really rusty as to details.

Either way, it WOULD HAVE been a good use for Midis that had importance across the Saga.

But it WASN'T, because Lucas dropped midis like a bad habit.

 

He didn't drop them, he explained them and left it at that. What purpose would it serve to reiterate the role of the Midichlorians in each movie?