Lit How much did Dooku know?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Vialco, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Completely missed that one. :oops:
  2. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    This is the weird part. The Plagueis book gave me the impression Palpatine never intended to keep Maul as his number 2. Further, it has been a bit since I read it, but I'm not sure Maul died after Plagueis, thus technically Maul may have never been a Sith Lord under the rule of two.

    As for Dooku, I still don't understand how he thought things were going to work out for him. Once Palpatine restructured the Republic as an Empire, exactly what place did he expect to have in the new order. How could the former leader of the Separatists be given a high level position in the Empire under Palpatine.
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  3. DarthApprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2011
    star 1
    I havent seen TPM in a while, but doesnt Palps say to the Nute Gunray something along the lines of "I'll be sending my apprentice, Darth Maul". Doesnt he also refer to him as Lord Maul? I think that would make Maul a legit Sith Lord...
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  4. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

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    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    True. However does that mean the Plagueis book potentially caused its own continuity problem?
  5. DarthApprentice Jedi Grand Master

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    May 17, 2011
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    Well, that would be your take on the Plaguies book, but I think Maul is still a legit Sith. However, I agree that the book does imply somewhat that Maul may not have been Sidious' first choice, just a convenient stepping stone... altho he was one bad*** stepping stone, if so.
    Last edited by DarthApprentice, Dec 25, 2012
  6. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    I just don't remember the exact timeline and don't have my books handy. However, my understanding of the Rule of Two is that the new apprentice of the current master's apprentice would not "officially" be number two until the current master is taken down by his apprentice (or by some miracles survives to die of natural causes). Of course, the Rule of Two tends to be more of a loose guideline when talking about Palpatine, given that he essentially ignores it throughout the EU (mostly pre-PT published EU though).
    Last edited by Darth_Kevin, Dec 25, 2012
  7. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    How many apprentices did Vader have at one time or another? The only difference between those people and Maul is that Maul didn't know that Sidious still had a master that was among the living.
  8. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    Vader had a pile of them too. Prior to the release of the PT, none of this Rule of Two business was known, thus there were Dark Side adepts, prophets, Hands, inquisitors, Dark Jedi, Sithlings, etc. trained by Vader or Palpatine running all over the place. Once the PT came out, it seems that this sort of thing was clamped down upon by EU writers and many of previous stories were retconned in one way or another.
    Last edited by Darth_Kevin, Dec 25, 2012
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  9. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    First all apprentices are fair game, then it's all Rule of Two, now it's Rule of Two then-some. At this point I'm going with this as the official "Rule of Two":

    1) The Sith Order has one rule: The Rule of Two.
    2) Sith don't follow rules.
  10. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

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    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    I wouldn't exactly call the two TFU games as "clamping it down."
  11. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    I think the video games are given a more slack on that sort of thing. I think the plot of the novels actually brought up the issue of secret apprentices and the Rule of Two though, and how all that worked out.
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Yes, but why would a Sith want to break a rule that guarantees him a monopoly on power? If anything, a Sith would want to reduce the number of apprentices he has to deal with to 0.
  13. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Well, there you go -- that would be breaking the rules! :p
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, Feb 20, 2014
  14. purplerain Force Ghost

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    Sep 14, 2013
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    1. Dooku knew everything except that he was going to be betrayed.
    2. When Plagueis was injured by the Maladians, Sidious became "the master" and Maul became "the apprentice", while Plagueis ceased to be either. Sidious found a loophole in the Rule of Two by having a Sith who's neither the master nor the apprentice.
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
  16. TheJediBrah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
    star 1
    I always thought it was weird how in AOTC Dooku was like "how did the republic come up with an army so quickly?", and he was absolutely genuine about it, when he should have been the one who basically ordered the damn thing. I mean, wasn't Jango Fett hired by "a man named Tyranus" for the job?

    confusing
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah it's a continuity error, not good acting on Dooku's part. The prequels are terrible.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Feb 21, 2014
  18. TheJediBrah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2013
    star 1
    I actually watched AOTC again the other night, and noticed something really funny for the first time. When Anakin and Padme are sitting in the starship on Tatooine getting a message from Obi-Wan where he is like "reroute this message to coruscant", Padme goes and presses this one button on the dashboard that does the job. So I'm sitting there thinking "ok that must be the 'reroute messages to coruscant' button" . . . why would a starship have a whole button dedicated to that, but fair enough. Then about 25 seconds later Padme goes to show Anakin the map of where Tatooine is in relation to Geonosis and she presses THE SAME EXACT BUTTON which has somehow become the "show the distance between Tatooine and Geonosis" button. I mean seriously is it that hard to have shot a new scene of her pressing a different button at least????

    /rant
    Last edited by TheJediBrah, Feb 22, 2014
  19. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4

    I think that's the joke, or at least it became one when Padmé presses the same button in ROTS and it's "open the door" button.
  20. KissMeImARebel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    He also seemed very genuine when he told Obi-Wan that there was a Sith Lord controlling the Senate in AotC. That's always baffled me. Like, was he trying to two-time Palpy or was it some sort of reverse psychology or WHAT?

    The prequels did more to confuse his character than any EU material ever did. Which is why it's no surprise to me that people are still asking questions about his basic knowledge and motives.
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    He told Obi-Wan the truth so he would never suspect it as such. "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now." If Dooku says that the Sith Lord is controlling the Senate, it's definitely a lie aimed at getting Obi-Wan to switch sides.
  22. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    I think that, on the long shot that Obi-Wan was receptive, Dooku really would have recruited him to take on Palpatine and become the ruling Sith Lords in his place. But Dooku could also explain it away as a simple ploy to sow confusion and distrust among the Jedi, so he could cover his ass if Sidious somehow found out about the offer.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 26, 2014
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  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    No doubt Dooku felt an affinity for Obi-Wan as a type of "grandson," and this angle was played up by Stover in the Episode III novel. They both seem to be rather straitlaced, compared to their respective apprentices who have more in common.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was an attempt to fracture the order as well, and make the Jedi trap even more effective with Jedi vs Jedi.

    Palpatine is always playing every angle, both sides against the middle, and Dooku is a smart guy that can do the same.
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  24. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    I don't know, I think I almost prefer it if that offer was entirely on Dooku's own initiative. It explains why he'd reveal Sidious's existence when the cons of doing so seem to so outweigh the pros. I mean, I think the Jedi would have become estranged from the Senate anyway, due to their differing philosophies on the war.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 26, 2014
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5

    From my perspective, I don't see how Dooku could let something like that slip to Obi-Wan unless it was a deliberate attempt at passing it off as misinformation, and that Obi-Wan is intended to take it back to the Jedi so they'd disregard it. The reason why is because I don't think if Obi-Wan said he would join Dooku that Dooku would just spill the beans that the Supreme Chancellor is the Sith Lord, even if Dooku is trying to pass himself off as a "good guy" to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan has to stay in the dark and Dooku has to pretend that he knows the Republic is being influenced by the Sith, but not specifically who, because that would eliminate the necessity to start a civil war as Dooku is doing if he can just unmask Palpatine Scooby Do style.

    When you think about it, the information is truly useless because the Senate is big and how the Sith Lord is influencing it is completely unknown. It's enough to potentially motivate Obi-Wan to join Dooku, but if he doesn't it's good camouflage for Palpatine because it tells the Jedi nothing while potentially directing them away from Palpatine through distrust of what Dooku said.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Feb 26, 2014
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