Lit How much did Dooku know?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Vialco, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Good points. But I think Dooku could still pretend he didn't know who this Sidious was, and then he and Obi-Wan could "discover" him together.

    And the information is relatively useless, which is why Dooku could get away with giving it out and not risk raising his master's ire too much once he found out. But it's still more information than they needed to give out, because I think Palpatine's cover is good enough that no reverse psychology is even needed to deflect suspicion.

    .....But as long as we're talking about Dooku's role in the plot, there's something that's been nagging me about it. In the EU, Dooku was pretty open with Jango about who he really was, even if he went by the name of Tyranus when he initially recruited him. And Jango is (mostly) in on the plot. So why did Jango act like he'd never heard of Sifo-Dyas, and instead give Obi-Wan the "Tyranus" name? If Jango had just been instructed to name Sifo-Dyas as his recruiter, things would have gone a lot smoother. In fact, the only way I can make sense of it is if the intent was for Dooku to have recruited Jango while in disguise and told him nothing about the plot, so that the name "Tyranus" was genuinely all Jango knew. Then it would make sense that he'd give out the name of some dude he only met once, just to get a nosy Jedi off his back.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 26, 2014
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I would just guess that Jango was brought in after Sifo-Dyas died, and based on the TCW trailer after Sifo-Dyas made the initial order, Tyranus was involved with the Kaminoans and I would assume bankrolled it and furnished the prime clone.

    I don't think the origin of the army was supposed to really matter, because once it was discovered, it wasn't really up to the Jedi whether it got used or not. I think Jango was just confusing the issue for the Jedi by naming Tyranus, because as Dooku's Sith name it's basically like naming John Doe. It will just make them spin their wheels.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Feb 26, 2014
  3. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    But if Dooku had Jango solidly establish that Sifo-Dyas was the only conspirator behind the army, the Jedi could rest comfortably knowing everything was explained. Sifo-Dyas ordered an army for the protection of the Republic, without telling the Council. Only a Jedi could erase Kamino from the Archives; that Jedi was Sifo-Dyas. Case closed.

    But if it becomes apparent that Sifo-Dyas had a co-conspirator, the Jedi might start asking questions. Mabye his co-conspirator was a fellow Jedi. Maybe a close friend of his, one who left the Order right around the same time Sifo-Dyas was killed and the order for the clones was placed. Maybe Dooku was the Jedi who erased Kamino from the Archives. Maybe there's more to his currently employing the clone template than the fact that he's an in-demand mercenary. Now why would the leader of the Separatists conspire to create an army for the Republic?

    The Jedi probably wouldn't come up with, "Because the clones have been secretly programmed with a protocol to execute every last one of us when given the order," because that's a ridiculous leap. But they'd be suspicious. The war would look a lot more like the sham that it was. And while it wouldn't spell doom for the Sith plot, it would be an unnecessary and inconvenient complication.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 26, 2014
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  4. TheJediBrah Jedi Master

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    Nah that bit didn't confuse me. it makes sense, he was just playing mind games with Obi-Wan/The Jedi. Even knowing the truth about Sidious just makes the Senate v Jedi trust issue even worse, playing into the Sith's hands.
  5. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Reverse psychology. Tell him the truth, at a moment where he doesn't trust you in the slightest, and he'll therefore disregard it and throw him and the Jedi off the trail, believing anything else but that for years.
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  6. Darth_Calgmoth Force Ghost

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    I guess Jango mentioned the name Tyranus because he knew that Obi-Wan might sense it when he lied. And if we assume that he had indeed never heard the name Sifo-Dyas, it would make sense. He did intend to leave Kamino as soon as possible, and any investigations into the name 'Tyranus' would have uncovered nothing. Especially not with the Kaminoans, as we now know...

    AOTC itself makes it clear that Obi-Wan came to conclusion that Jango was hired by Nute Gunray for the hit on Padmé, indicating that the Jedi considered it a coincidence that Jango Fett was the clone template for an army for the Republic, while also doing jobs for Gunray/Dooku. Considering how bounty hunters change allegiances during TCW and elsewhere this actually makes some sense.

    As to what Dooku knew when he was finally recruited by Darth Sidious: I think Luceno more than implied that Dooku was already aware of the fact that Palpatine was a Sith Lord during their latest conversations. In fact, before the DP novel, I always imagined Dooku's recruitment was very unspectacular, for instance, Dooku starting one of his conversations with Palpatine with the question 'Lord Sidious?'. He could have indeed found out the name by questioning Nute Gunray after TPM. It still could work like that - the way Luceno portrays it they are already talking Sith stuff without admitting openly.

    Luceno really should further dig into their relationship in a 'Darth Tyranus' novel, depicting Dooku's biography from, say, shortly before TPM up into AOTC. The ten years before the Clone Wars should be a really interesting time, full of political schemes and backstabbing, and it's long overdue to cover the formation of the Confederacy of Independent Systems in a novel, or even a series of novels.

    In the end, Tyranus' blind spot for Sidious' betrayal may actually prove that he is a better judge of character than Palpatine. Tyranus realized that Anakin was bad Sith material. And he was right in that. Can anyone really see 'Darth Vader' keeping the an Empire in line without the suit? The fact that Vader remained a Sith hinges completely on the fact that he was nearly killed by Obi-Wan shortly after he became Sidious' apprentice. I very much doubt that Sidious could have kept Vader in line, neither power-wise nor where 'Sith ideology' was concerned.
    Tyranus obviously saw that, and thus never thought that Sidious could want someone like that as his apprentice. But then, Dooku never learned that Plagueis/Sidious may actually have caused Anakin's birth. Had he known that, he would have viewed Anakin much differently...
  7. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    *fixed to answer your question ;)

    EDIT: @Bariss_Coffee I think your observation about Sith following rules is possibly more accurate than you realize. The Rule of Two isnt a legal document, it's an acknowledgement of Sith psychology.

    In the commentaries for ESB, even GL indicated that there can be more than two Sith Lords in existance at any given point in time. It's just that whenever that happens, they go on a murder spree until there's no more than two left.

    Every Dark Lord of the Sith thinks they're the special snowflake who's above the RoT, but pretty much all of them get trapped by it.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Feb 27, 2014
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  8. Starkeiller Force Ghost

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    When Palpatine first proposed the idea of raising Maul in the dark side to Plagueis, he pitched it as a Dark Jedi/Sith Assassin/Ambassador's Hand type of deal, but 20 years later, Plagueis referred to Maul as "your apprentice" and had no problem with the fact that Palpatine made him a Sith Lord. Lockdown follows this line as well. Palpatine was just being cautious.


    By the way, is there any source that has the Jedi looking into who Tyranus might have been? It's obvious that they wouldn't pursue the matter very far, seeing as a pseudonym is all they have, but I can't remember even a single mention.
    Last edited by Starkeiller, Feb 27, 2014
  9. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Obi-Wan is a lousy detective and didn't have his notepad out and forgot the name.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Lanyrinth of Evil has that mention, but as you say there's really nothing they can do about it. Especially if the number of Tyranuses on Coruscant is anything like the number of Jax Pavans.

    In LOE the Jedi do think that Dooku erased Kamino, but they don't make the leap that this means he conspired to create an army for the Republic. Rather, they believe he erased Kamino so that the Jedi would not find out about the clone army until too late, until Dooku's droid army had become too powerful to oppose.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 27, 2014
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  11. Starkeiller Force Ghost

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    Ah. I should have known "Luceno" was the answer.
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    That's a pretty good explanation, actually. After all, that's what I'd think if I were in their position.

    edit: In fact, the Jedi would probably think they dodged a bullet. What would Dooku's first target have been after the Separatist Droid Army became operational? That's right. A bunch of clones huddled in a city on stilts with no real battle experience and no Jedi generals to lead them.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Feb 27, 2014
  13. Darth_Calgmoth Force Ghost

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    Well, wouldn't be the better explanation to believe that Sifo-Dyas erased Kamino? So that the council could not stumble by accident on the clone army before Sifo-Dyas decided that they were ready for that revelation? If the Jedi really connected Kamino and Dooku, they would have to be brain dead to not realize/suspect that he may have something to do with the clone army.

    Suspect Dooku of murdering Sifo-Dyas could also make sense; they could believe that he killed him to prevent the council from learning that there was a clone army until it was too late.
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    How is thinking Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas to prevent the Jedi from learning there was a clone army any different than thinking Dooku erased Kamino from the Archives to keep the Jedi from learning there was a clone army?
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  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Well, it's counterintuitive, to say the least. Why would Dooku create an army to oppose his own forces?
  16. Darth_Calgmoth Force Ghost

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    Well, if Dooku knew about Kamino, he could have easily tried to destroy the clone army and/or the Kaminoans during the ten years he kept the clone army a secret from the Jedi. He should have had the resources to attack Kamino or develop a virus/poison to deal with young clones.

    It would make much more sense for the Jedi to assume that Sifo-Dyas had erased Kamino from the archive memory, and that Dooku had killed him because he had ordered the clone army to counter whatever Dooku was planning in the future. Dooku then sensed that, and killed Sifo-Dyas to prevent him from warning the other Jedi. Thus Dooku would not have anything to do with the clone army or Kamino as far as the Jedi were concerned. That is, if Sifo-Dyas was indeed murdered by Dooku, and if the Jedi ever made that connection. TCW is revisiting this matter tomorrow (at least here in Germany).
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    That approach would have risked discovery that much sooner.
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  18. Darth_Calgmoth Force Ghost

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    Really? Kamino was in no man's land. It was not part of the Republic, and neither the Jedi nor the Senate had much contact with them, or else people would have known of Kamino and the saber dart when Obi-Wan started his investigation.

    If we really pretend that Dooku was trying to defeat/topple the Republic (as the Jedi did), then it would have smart if he had prevented the creation of the clones while he still could. Especially if he was not able to hit the Republic hard before the clones were ready.
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    What is he going to do? Mount an attack all on his lonesome against an entire planet's defense forces?
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  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    That would be cool.
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Agreed, but he'd better hope the Kaminoans don't hire a handful of pirates and a monkey-lizard or else he's toast.
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  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    1. Dooku knew about the army, so he was obviously lying and acting when he said to the Separatists he had no idea. It's not a continuity error in the prequels.

    2. The Rule of Two allows for candidates. Apprentices of the Apprentice are candidates. See Vader and Lumiya/Flint. See Starkiller. Etc. The Dark Jedi are not Sith. And either way, both Plagueis and Sidious were looking to stop following the Rule.

    3. Dooku knew Palpatine = Sidious.

    4. We were told that Sidious instructed Dooku to tell the Jedi about his existence, so as to confuse them.

    5. Dooku had no intention to win the war; he was supposed to be captured and then publicly declare his mistake and come back into the Republic fold as Skywalker blames the Jedi Order for the war.


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  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Well, that was sarcasm on my part. :p
  24. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    I thought as much but you'd be surprised with the anti-prequel brigade!


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  25. TheJediBrah Jedi Master

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    Oct 6, 2013
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    This would be great if it was intentional but in AOTC when he said "how did the republic come up with an army so quickly" I highly doubt it was meant to be anything other than absolutely genuine.

    it works as a retcon though.