CT How much did owen know about anakin/vader?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by kenobifan1999, Dec 29, 2012.

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  1. kenobifan1999 Jedi Knight

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    in episode 4.

    how much did owen know about him? did he know he was vader? or did he just think anakin died as a jedi? any theories?
  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    You'd think Obi-Wan would have to have told him, given the gravity of the situation, but I've no idea if if it's ever been confirmed.

    Bail Organa knew what happened to Anakin & took Leia as his adopted daughter - bit rough (and careless) to dump Luke on Owen & Beru without warning them that the child's father was one of the two most dangerous men in the entire galaxy. (Bit rough to dump the kid on them in the first place, but hey, family's family, right?)

    Then Owen & Beru end up getting torched anyway over a pair of droids they bought, not for secretly harbouring the child of the Chosen One for twenty years. Brutal.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 30, 2012
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  3. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I think Obi-Wan told them. Why would Owen make an attempt as hard as he did to keep Luke on Tatooine?
  4. kenobifan1999 Jedi Knight

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    agreed. but what did obiwan tell him? that anakin was killed with the rest of the jedi? or that anakin was now darth vader? thats the real question
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    I think it unlikely that Obi-Wan told them everything, that Anakin is now Vader. Keeping this a secret was obviously very important to Obi-Wan and why risk that Owen or Beru blow the whole thing by telling Luke?
    Also, at that point, Obi-Wan must have thought that Anakin was dead so him telling them that Anakin was dead would be true as far as he knew.
    So with Anakin dead why add more grief and say that he turned to evil and betrayed the republic and the jedi?

    Happy New Year.
    Old Stoneface
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  6. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    So that Owen & Beru knew that it was even more important not to let anyone (including Luke) know who Luke's father was. You could imagine a situation where they might let it slip that Luke was the son of a dead Jedi war hero by the name of Anakin Skywalker, after all, what did it matter, now that the Jedi were gone? However, if they knew this person was still alive & now the Emperor's right hand, there's no way in hell they'd ever, ever mention it.

    Forget feelings, if the secret ever got out, Owen & Beru would be dead, and Luke would be the servant of the Sith. Obi-Wan would have to let them know just how serious the situation was.

    It all works better in SW/ANH if you assume Owen knew, anyway - his line "That's what I'm afraid of" works beautifully in retrospect (although it was pure luck - Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father when it was shot).

    Like I said, though, I'm not sure if this question has ever been addressed officially. I recall a passage in an EU novel about Luke recalling Owen getting angry at him as a child when he found something that was missing, because he'd clearly used the Force to do so, but Owen might have been afraid simply because Luke was the child of a Jedi, not necessarily the son of Darth Vader. Hmm.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    To the first point, simply tell Owen and Beru that Luke is the son of Anakin and all Jedi and their off-spring are targeted for extermination.That should be enough to inform them of the gravity of the situation and that they should keep it to themselves. Also, based on what Obi-Wan said in ANH, he wanted to give Luke his fathers lightsaber at some point but Owen did not allow it. So Obi-Wan was apparently intent of telling Luke at least a partial thruth, that his father was a jedi. Finally, at that point in time, Obi-Wan would think that Anakin is dead. He left him to burn to death, I very much doubt that Obi-Wan thought Anakin could survive that. Lastly, Obi-Wan felt it was very important that Luke NOT be told the complete thruth about his father, so why risk all that by letting two other people that Obi-Wan doesn't know in on the secret?
    Telling them that Luke would be killed by the empire if they knew about him is enough, no need to add the rest and plenty of reasons not to.

    If Obi-Wan for some reason thought that Anakin was alive and might look for his son and he told Owen and Beru all that, there is a good chance that they would not take Luke as the risk would be far too great.
    Owen line works better to me if he doesn't know what really became of Anakin. Luke is looking for adventure and excitement, he doesn't come off as an evil despot in the making. Also the line implies that Owen and Beru knew Anakin personally instead of the quick meeting they had with him.
    If Owen thinks that Anakin was a reckless fool that got involved with things that did not concern him and got himself killed then his line works better than if he knew that Anakin is an evil monster that betrayed all around him and now is the right hand man in an evil empire.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  8. kainee Jedi Master

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    Dec 10, 2012
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    I actually think Owen and Beru being repressive of what they saw of Anakin in Luke still working even if they didn't know the full story because of the fact that they knew Anakin was a Jedi and Jedi were being hunted down. I really doubt with how emotionally wrecked Obi-Wan was by dueling Anakin on Mustafar that he'd open up enough to strangers just to tell them the whole truth. It's been shown that Obi-Wan is not beyond lies of omission when he deems it necessary for safety. I'd imagine that he simply told the Lars the bare minimum required to perform the role he needed them to-- to raise Luke unaware of his legacy as Anakin's son, in safety and in obscurity. This lack of knowledge of the full truth of Anakin's transformation to Darth Vader could actually be an in-universe explanation for why Luke is so much more consciously in touch with the Force than Leia is in the movies since Bail Organa likely could have deliberately steered Leia away from anything that would trigger her use of Force powers or remind him of Anakin. (Of course, we all know out of universe that this is because Leia being Luke's twin sister was unplanned.)

    In any case, even if the Lars didn't take Obi-Wan at his word that telling Luke about Anakin and the Jedi was dangerous, the subsequent years of the Empire's rule and actions would likely have convinced them.
  9. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Hmm...

    I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It could have been either way - personally, if I'd been in Obi-Wan's position, I would feel that I'd have to tell Owen & Beru the whole truth. On the other hand, I can see why you mightn't.

    And yes, the "that's what I'm afraid of" line works both ways - in fact, it works in the pre-Father Vader context, too, as was originally intended (Owen's simply afraid Luke's going to go & get himself killed, just as his brother did).
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  10. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Was Obi-Wan ever in contact with Owen and Beru after he handed over Luke to them? Because at the end of ROTS, he thought that Anakin had burned to death on Mustafar.
  11. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Actually, that's true. At the time he handed Luke over, he would have thought Anakin/Vader was dead anyway. Obviously he found out later that he wasn't.

    Some contact between Obi-Wan & Owen has been referred to quite frequently in the EU, however. Plus, Luke certainly knew who 'Ben' was, after all, and when they first meet in SW/ANH, they do seem at least familiar with each other.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    Good question.

    When Obi-Wan initially brought Luke to Owen and Beru, he thought Anakin had died--however, he also knew that Anakin had joined the Emperor and therefore might have told Owen and Beru that much, since the Emperor would come looking for Luke if he learned of Luke's existence. That danger was present whether Anakin survived or not.

    Whether he told them what happened after he learned that Anakin survived, is anybody's guess; I tend to think that yes, just to ensure that they have the full knowledge of the danger to Luke. Look what happened as soon as Vader found out that Luke was alive; he became obsessed with finding him.

    My bigger question is why Owen hated Obi-Wan so much, but that might be another topic. Did he blame Obi-Wan or the Jedi in general for what happened to Anakin? It almost seems that way. He certainly had no love for the Jedi, calling them "wizards" and calling old Ben a "crazy old man."
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  13. kenobifan1999 Jedi Knight

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    i think he just wanted luke to have nothing to do with obiwan or the jedi so he always put obiwan and his ways down.
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Why I think that Obi-Wan didn't tell Owen/Beru the full story can be summed up like this, it serves no pratical purpose.
    Telling them that all Jedi are hunted outlaws and that Luke, as a Jedi's son, would be in danger if the empire ever learned of him, is enough to make them keep this quiet.
    Telling them the whole thruth is far riskier, they might slip up and tell Luke, something that Obi-Wan wants to avoid at all costs. Also Obi-Wan doesn't really know them when he hands Luke over so why would he trust them with this big secret?
    About the only reason is that Obi-Wan just wants to be honest and as we have seen, Obi-Wan ins't above lying if the situation warrants it.

    Leai was also lied to, reasonable given that she was closer to the heart of the empire. But did Bail tell his wife the whole thruth? Possibly but again given how dangerous that thruth would be he has reason not to. The more people that know about something the greater the risk that someone says something that they are not supposed to.

    In short, Obi-Wan has no real reason to tell Owen/Beru everything and plenty of reasons not to.
    Owens line works better if he is simply worried that Luke is an adventure seeker like his father and will get himself killed.
    If he knew that Anakin is now an evil monster and traitor why would he agree that Luke has a lot of his father in him? Luke is many things in ANH, but evil monster in the making is not one of them.

    Of course another question is why Luke kept his last name. He did not travel around much but he had been away from the farm and other people knew his name and he was planning to apply to the academy. Sure Skywalker might be very common but if Obi-Wan was so worried that the empire might hunt him down why not take the extra precaution and change his last name?

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    According to Wook, and I'd have to find the link to the source material the article used, Owen gave Luke the last name Skywalker as an homage to Shmi.
  16. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

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    Nov 12, 2012
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    Obi-Wan certainly had a tendency to tell the truth "from a certain point of view". But when he dropped baby Luke off, he must have told them that Anakin was dead because at that point all he knew was that Anakin was dead. (Well, okay, he left him there to burn alive but I don't think he got that far into it.) Owen was Anakin's stepbrother I think he'd tell him that. Also I always inferred that one of the reasons Owen was so miffed at Obi-Wan was because, at some point, Obi-Wan found out that Anakin was Vader and then filled Owen in on it. In my mind, that's where their disconnect comes from. Owen wasn't exactly chasing Obi-Wan off the homestead at the end of "Sith". I think their relationship soured at some point in the past 18 years and probably when Obi-Wan told Owen. "Hey, remember your stepbrother, Anakin? The kid's dad? He's not dead. He's, uh, that Darth Vader guy running around."

    On the flipside, Obi-Wan did know that Anakin's Sith name was Vader (Sidious called him that in the hologram). So when Darth Vader hits the holonet I think Owen and/or Obi-Wan puts two and two together.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Jan 1, 2013
  17. mes520 Jedi Grand Master

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    Owen didn't like Anakin or the Jedi because he knew what Anakin did to the Tusken Raiders.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I think you've answered your own question, in many ways. If the risk of telling Owen and Beru that Anakin was Darth Vader was too great, then I don't think that the Larses would have seen any reason not to use the "Skywalker" last name. For one thing, they probably wanted to reinforce to Luke (at an early age) that he was their nephew and not their son and the different last name would have helped reinforce that. For another, I don't find it unlikely that "Skywalker" would be a pretty common last name. Shmi, after all, was no one of prominence in the galaxy and the last name is quite similar to Biggs' (Darklighter). And I think that anakinfan is right and that Owen likely would have wanted to honor his stepmother.

    For Obi-Wan to really have a case, he's going to have to explain why concealing the name "Skywalker" is so important in the first place. After all, Jedi weren't supposed to be getting married or fathering children, so it's not like agents of the Empire would have been expecting any Jedi to have kids. In all likelihood, I imagine Obi-Wan simply decided that having Luke keep the last name Skywalker would be less risky than revealing the full truth to Owen and Beru (if such a situation arose).

    And as far as the films show, Anakin is really the only member of the Empire who knows about the Lars. If he heard about a "Luke Lars" running around with Obi-Wan Kenobi aboard the Death Star who was strong in the Force and seemed to be exactly the right age as his own child would have been, I think he still would have had his suspicions, last name notwithstanding.
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    LOL really? I missed the part in AOTC in which Owen actually liked the Tusken Raiders and would have sided with them over Anakin after what they did to Shmi.

    I'm not sure Owen knew the extent of what happened in that camp anyway; he only knew that the Tuskens kidnapped Shmi and tortured her to death, that his father and 29 other farmers could not rescue her and that all but four of them got killed trying, but Anakin was somehow able to get Shmi out of the camp, albeit too late.
  20. mes520 Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 3, 2012
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    Owen found out about the Tusken Camp sometime later, he tells Obi-Wan about it and when Anakin brought Shmi's body home in the "The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan"
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I haven't read that book so I don't know the context, but Owen actually defending the Tuskens who tortured his stepmother to death and maimed his father seems way off base.
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  22. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Obi-Wan could tell them that Luke is Anakins son and since he was rather well known Jedi, the empire would know his name so if another Skywalker popped up on their radar they might investigate. Normal Jedi aren't supposed to have children but Obi-Wan has already told them that Anakin, a Jedi, had a child, and the empire might know about it. He has no need to tell them that Anakin went bad, just that all Jedi are hunted fugitives and that applies to Jedi children. Further, Obi-Wan would most likely think that Anakin is dead and Palpatine might not know about the Lars so Luke Lars is safer. And speaking of Palpatine, he knew that Anakin would soon be a father and while he MIGHT have been fooled by making Padme look pregnant at her funeral it would not hurt to be careful. Obi-Wan and Yoda clearly say that the children must be hidden from the Sith. Leia is taken with Bail and her name is changed, Luke meanwhile is sent to Anakins relatives and yet he keeps Anakin name.
    If secrecy is so important, which it apparently was, why not also change his name? From Obi-Wan pow, letting Luke keep the name serves no purpose and is a risk, however minor.
    So yes the risk is minor but letting him keep the name serves no pratical purpose so why not remove this risk? Since Obi-Wan planned to tell Luke about his father at some point and give him his lightsaber, then he could also have told him his real name. Hideing two children across the galaxy and change one childs name but not the other is a bit odd.

    Possibly it was all Owens idea and he let Luke keep the name despite Obi-Wans warnings. This is probably the explanation that makes the most sense. Obi-Wan can't really order him around. If so then to me it further indicates that Owen did not know the thruth about Anakin. If he did know, it would be a rather strange act "Yeah I let Luke keep the name of his evil, murdering father, who now terrorizes the galaxy."

    Lastly, when Luke has begun to train with Obi-Wan and openly confront the empire, the need for secrecy is gone. Just by opposing the empire, Luke would be a target. And both Vader and Palpatine was able to sense Luke's growing power so by that time the name doesn't matter.
    But what mattered was the time before that, if Luke would have come on the Sith/Empires radar ten years before ANH then all might be lost.
    Luke was hidden so why not hide him more completely by changing his name?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    @Samuel Vimes

    Hopefully we won't get into too huge a debate :)p) , but the risk of the name alone seems pretty negligible to me.

    Really, what I was trying to get at was that your post had basically answered your own question:

    If Owen didn't know the truth about Anakin, then it seems likely that he would have encouraged Luke to keep the name since, as far as he knew, Anakin was dead and no one else really knew that Anakin's mother had married into the Lars family. For Obi-Wan to persuade them otherwise would mean revealing the truth and my guess was simply that he felt it less of a security risk for Luke to keep the name "Skywalker" rather than risk getting into a fight with Owen where Obi-Wan might potentially have to reveal that Anakin is Darth Vader. That's all. Kind of a "lesser of two evils" situation.
  24. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    He doesn't defend their actions- if anything he hints to Obi-Wan that it may have been necessary- however, he does say that he saw that Anakin would have killed him without any qualms if it would have brought his mother back- which is partly why he was a little distrustful.
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    If the risk of the name alone is negligible let me ask you this, if Leia Organa was instead known as Leia Skywalker, would that have meant an increased risk for her, yes or no?

    As for Owen, he already knows that Anakin is a Jedi, he knows Luke is his son and at the end of RotS he might not know that all Jedi are now hunted outlaws but he would find out eventually. So all Obi-Wan has to tell him is that the empire is hunting down all Jedi and those close to them and it might be wise for Luke to have another last name, just as an extra precaution.
    Obi-Wan doesn't have to say anything about Anakin being Vader for this story to seem plausible.
    If Obi-Wan tells Owen that if the empire learns about who Luke really is then his life would be in danger is perfectly reasonable and Owen would have no reason to question it. Even on Tatooine people still have heard about Jedis and the news that they are all hunted down and killed would most likely be heard. He could still decide to let Luke keep the name anyway, despite Obi-Wans objections. As for Obi-Wan, he is hardly in a position to put up much of a fight over this. But I think it likely, given what we know, that he would think that changing Luke's last name would have been safer.

    But I suggest we drop this, it will most likely not lead anywhere.
    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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