PT How planned (by Palpatine) was the confrontation involving Anakin and Mace in ROTS?

Yeah, although I thought that moment was mostly for the kids watching to say "don't believe Palpatine!". Surprised people think he was actually scared.

Exactly, it is part of Palpatine's destructive and megalomaniacal nature that he purposely puts himself in these situations to serve his greater plan.

Agreed.

 

Palpatine knew that at some point the Jedi would need to be dealt with and must have known that a few clones were unlikely to bring down the Council powerhouses like Yoda and Mace. The fact that he managed to goad Mace into a fight suggests he was at the very least confident of surviving such a fight. Personally I think he intended to kill Mace himself if possible but knowing he had a card up his sleeve in the shape of Anakin. Possibly Mace did legitimately win the duel but Palpatine had actually accounted for the possibility all along and had there been no Anakin to intervene would have come up with another trick than his 'weak old man' routine.

 

I would like it better if Sidious had planned to kill Mace and the others himself, and had another ace in his sleeve in order to corrupt Anakin later, but Mace won the fight, Anakin arrived, and Sidious improvised, seizing the opportunity to kill Mace and corrupt Anakin in one stroke.

However, I think GL intention was that Sidious planned for Anakin to be there. I don't like it, because it implies that Sidious could predict Anakin's every move with pinpoint accuracy, and he doesn't show such perfection in other instances: He failed to convince Anakin to leave Obi-wan behind, he failed to convince Luke to kill his father, he failed to predict that Darth Vader would turn against him...etc.

That's why, in my headcanon, I choose a middle point: Sidious wanted Anakin to arrive and fight by his side against the Jedi. When the Jedi arrived first, he killed the three weakest ones and tried to prolong his fight with Mace, hoping Anakin would arrive on time. However, Mace won the fight, he disarmed him and returned his force lighting; Palpatine wasn't defeated at that point, but he was in dire straits. When Anakin arrived, Palpatine improvised, seizing the opportunity to both kill Mace and corrupt Anakin in one stroke.

 

I tend to favour the theory that Sidious tends to have several different schemes planned out to account for different choices and eventualities. He wasn't so much counting on Anakin appearing exactly when he did but more gambling that he could hold out long enough for Anakin to appear at some point. The chance he took was Mace killing him outright before Anakin could intervene, but that was a risk he felt prepared to take. Option A), Palpatine and Anakin fight together against the Council, Option B) Palpatine deals with the Council then resumes converting Anakin, Option C) a combination of the above. All three were possibilities Palpatine had considered and had plans to deal with.

Of course his predictive skills do let him down when Luke rolls up thirty odd years later but he's got complacent by then.

 

Lightning did nothing to stop Windu. And if he wanted to play innocent, he wouldn't have blasted lightning to Windu when the latter declared him under arrest.

The picture I posted was his very last moment. Right before Anakin turned his saber on and cut Mace's hand. In that very moment, he wasn't faking anything. Had Anakin not intervened, he wouldn't stand a chance. And he knew that. That was genuine fear from Palpatine.

Nobody is arguing otherwise. If Palpatine didn't want to confront Windu, he wouldn't have stayed.

He didn't know if Anakin was going to accompany Mace, stay in the Temple or appear later on. Once Mace appeared without Anakin, he wasn't worried about him. Nor was he worried when Anakin was there since he decided to attack Mace to resist arrest.

How so?

That's not clear at all.

 

The moment oierem pointed out suggests otherwise though. He is looking to the side at Anakin, to see if Anakin is buying it. You know him pleading "don't kill me, please" (right before the picture you posted) was feigned, but you think he was additionally genuinely afraid despite that? Lucas says on the commentary he "pretends to lose his powers". The staged fear is part of this, Anakin and Mace think it is genuine, and think Mace is about to succeed in killing Sidious. Palpatine wasn't afraid, he was letting Mace swing because he was confident Anakin would step in. He believes in Anakin as a sure thing; perhaps overconfidently, but in the short term it proves justified.

He sets up the entire Battle of Coruscant to give himself an opportunity to snare Anakin. Think of the battle from Palpatine's view, all these players desperately fighting it out on his whim, damage caused and lives lost, and even putting himself on a soon to be destroyed ship. He orders himself kidnapped by Grievous (who is told to take him alive), and then waits as a hostage on The Invisible Hand in the middle of a full-scale battle that he expects the Republic will win. It is similar to ROTJ; leaking the information on the DSII shield-generator to the Rebels, letting the Rebels know he is overseeing its construction in person, calmy sitting on his throne knowing about an imminently arriving Rebel fleet, removing Luke's handcuffs, and making no move to block Luke's saber strike because he knows Vader too well.

 

That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the shot where Windu raises his arm to strike. In that very moment, Sidious is facing death. That's where the picture I posted is from. There's no pretend there.

Yes, he's faking it while Windu and Anakin are arguing. After that, he's not faking because in that very moment there's no escape. Windu was going to kill him.

Again, nobody is arguing that part. And Mace doesn't believe in Sidious, that's why he's striking. Because a) he's not "too weak" and b) like he said, he's too dangerous to be left alive. When he raises his arm there's no escape for Sidious and he knows it. He didn't expect Anakin to cut Mace's hand in that very last moment. That was a surprise to all three of them.

 

Going to have to agree to disagree. I just don't see it that way.

Tbh I think the idea that Mace doesn't believe Palpatine is defeated contradicts your belief that Mace had won. In the novel Mace clearly tastes victory when he believes Palpatine is out of strength. Notice Mace states "He's too dangerous to be left alive!" when Palpatine is begging for his life. Palpatine is now pretending to agree to go quietly, knowing Mace is going to try and execute him and push Anakin too far.
Mace and Anakin both think Palpatine is about to die, and Mace doesn't see Anakin's betrayal coming. Palpatine however trusts that Anakin will intervene. It's not a surprise at all.

 

In regards to the OP: Palps is a man with a plan.

 

All I can say is that I love that we're still having this debate years after ROTS was released. Of all the original 6 movies, this Mace vs Sidious debate intrigues me the most.

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We will have to disagree about the interpretation of the scene, although I have to admit I fail to see the logic of what you are saying. You admit that Palpatine was not too weak, and that he was pretending... and yet you say that when Mace is about to strike he couldn't do a thing? At the very least, he could keep blasting lightining to Mace!

Also, why does he stage the whole confrontation if he's not expecting Anakin to step in? Why put himself in such peril if it wasn't to create that critical moment for Anakin?

 

And Mace would continue to send it back to him.

He didn't stage. He just let the Jedi take their shot, confident that he would defeat them.

In his arrogance and overconfidence, there was no peril.

 

He needed a legitimate reason to order the elimination of the Jedi Order. Getting Anakin was just the icing of the cake. I guess he would have done things a little differently if Anakin weren't there during that fight... he could have feigned mercy for the Jedi in the Temple, offering to spare their live if they surroundered, and at the same time, blackmailing/bribing Anakin with the secret to bring back the dead.

 

Eh. I'm torn on this issue and my opinion flips back and forth.

On one hand, I can see it staged because Palpatine throughout the saga alludes to having premonitions and foreseeing things. It could just be a bunch of hot air, but possibly not either. More recently, in regards to the Rebels TV show, it had been alluded to that Palpatine does indeed have the ability to see the future and is trying to master it.

So if you watch that scene with the belief that Palpatine does have a gift of foresight, then that would explain how he knew Mace was coming and he knew that Anakin was going to show up, and that he threw the fight intentionally to appear weak, forcing Anakin to step in an make a decision.

From Palpatine's perspective, this would make the most sense, as when Yoda confronts him, Palpatine tries to run. He has nothing to gain from risking his life in a fight with Yoda with no backup. But with Mace, he waited, he made no attempt to flee, and he knew that the Jedi were going to be coming for him, since Anakin warned Palpatine that he would be handed over to the Jedi, still he waited. Also he is clearly faking losing his power, so when it comes to Mace moving in to finish him off, what was to stop Palpatine from Force pushing him when Mace was in his back swing? Or steal Anakin's lightsaber?

I really have no reason to think that Anakin showing up was a coincidence. I think Palpatine counted on that. But as to whether or not getting a boot to the face and getting cornered was planned, I don't know. The only thing that really makes me think that it wasn't is Ian McDiarmid's performance when he says "Please don't... Please don't!"

When he is sitting in the corner begging, "I am too weak, oh, don't kill me, please!" he's clearly faking his weakness. But when Mace moves to finish off Palpatine, there is a moment where I feel like this faking may transition into legitimate fear. It happens in about a fraction of a second, but the muscles in his face tense up, and his eyes grow wide. So I think he was manipulating Anakin to step in, but when Mace goes to finish him off, it does seem like Palpatine was legitimately afraid that Mace might kill him and Anakin might not intervene. And I cannot believe that Palpatine would ever voluntarily have put himself in that corner, if there was any doubt in his mind that Anakin was going to defend him.



At 3:37 when he's begging, there's little doubt in my mind that this is an act just to manipulate Anakin. He has a tired and relaxed look on his face, and his eyes lazily move to Anakin when Anakin speaks as though he's watching Anakin's reaction. But at 3:47, there's that fraction of a second moment where his eyes seem to grow wider and he seems to tense up, his voice becomes more distraught and less "weak" and it seems like Ian McDiarmid is trying to sell it as legitimate fear. Especially when he says "please don't" the second time, it seems like he's trembling.

So for me there's two options, and my mind is not made up as to which is true. But either way I think Palpatine foresaw that Anakin would arrive and counted on that happening, but from there the two outcomes are:

1. Palpatine sensed Anakin was close and allowed himself to be put in a compromising position to force Anakin to make a decision, but was willing to continue the fight if he had to.

2. Palpatine was caught off guard with the put to the face, tried to salvage the situation by manipulating Anakin, and genuinely was afraid when it appeared he was to be executed.

 

Alright, here's my analysis:

The overall events and course the war were indeed manipulated by Darth Sidious to come to that particular moment where the Jedi Council comes to arrest the Chancellor. As such, I am sure Sidious assumed he would have no trouble dealing with Windu.

However, we need to keep one thing in mind: SIDIOUS IS NOT BATMAN! He is not absolutely perfect when given prep time. Did Sidious think he could defeat Mace? Absolutely, there is no doubt in my mind. Did he beat Mace though? My answer to this is no.

For one, just look at the two times where Anakin has a chance to kill Sidious. In Return of the Jedi, Sidious COMPLETELY underestimated Anakin's love for Luke, and that was his undoing.



Look at Sidious! He has absolutely no CLUE what is about to happen! How is this relavant for his duel with Master Windu? Well, this establishes that Sidious is not an omnipotent planner. He makes mistakes. As we see, Sidious was absolutely confident (and with perfectly good reason) that he could easily take Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin.





So as we know he takes out Kolar and Tiin in fairly short order - although both are skilled with a lightsaber, there are good reasons they are the first to fall. Agen Kolar has only recently been appointed to the Council, following the as-of-yet untold story of the departure of Eeth Koth. Thus, while he may have been one of the Order's poster boys for lightsaber combat, Sidious was in all likelihood leagues ahead of him in his ability to use the Force.

Saesee Tiin was most skilled in the area of piloting, as we see in TCW. In fact, he according the Legend (pun intended), he was second only to Anakin among Jedi pilots.



In my opinion, he would have most likely refined those skills more than his dueling skills. With the war the way it was, piloting would be much more of a useful skill than dueling, especially since Tiin could most likely already contend with Darth Tyranus (he is one of the five Jedi Council members who was in all three prequels, so he had to be pretty powerful).

Kit Fisto meanwhile was able to put up somewhat of a fight, although he too was quickly defeated by Sidious. Although in my opinion he was most likely less powerful than Tiin, Fisto had more reason to develop his dueling skills throughout the war, as he did not have any particular skills like Tiin's piloting ability. This theory of mine I think has some pretty good proof from TCW, where he successfully defeated General Grievous:



So, Fisto is clearly adept at fending off attacks from all sides to his increased skill in dueling during the Clone Wars (here I'm referring to the event, not the TV series). This explains why out of the three lesser Jedi Masters he puts up the best fight against the Dark Lord.

Why did I type all of this? To show that the Jedi who accompanied Windu were no weaklings - in fact, they were some of the most skilled Force-users of their time. However, due to a combination of circumstance and simply being outclassed by Sidious. This shows that Sidious took these Jedi SERIOUSLY, although he was right that in the end they were no match for him.

I believe that Sidious also took Mace seriously. Surely, Sidious had heard of the legendary skills of Master Windu. He defeated Jango Fett:



And also stalemated Mother Talzin, who gave Sidious himself a tough fight in TCW:





These examples, along with how Sidious fights, show that he took Mace seriously. For instance, after he finishes defeating the other Jedi, Sidious turns his attention to Windu with renewed vigor, putting Mace on the defensive. However, I believe that Master Windu willingly retreated. After all, the meeting chamber had much more room for him to maneuver than the comparatively-cramped office.



However, I believe that Master Windu willingly retreated. After all, the meeting chamber had much more room for him to maneuver:



Having given ground and taken the fight into the terrain of his choosing, Mace pulls his first surprise on Sidious and presses the attack:



In response, Sidious hisses like an angry snake. He had his prey cornered but somehow, the Mace had outmaneuvered him.


Mace then pressed the attack, now putting Sidious on the defensive:



As established, Sidious was clearly trying. However, he has been surprised by Mace and is slowly giving ground to him. Another curveball is then thrown into the fight when both combatants break the window of the meeting room. The Master of the Order and the Dark Lord both had looks of intense concentration throughout this part of the duel; clearly, both were giving it everything they had:



But, Mace continues to press Sidious (after a final, brief spurt from of offensive swordplay from the Dark Lord), and delivers the infamous kick to the grill!



But here's the key thing: SIDIOUS DOESN'T KNOW ANAKIN IS IN THE BUILDING! As established, he was clearly taking Master Windu seriously; all of the Sith Lord's attention was focused on the Jedi Master. Thus, Mace Windu did in fact overpower Darth Sidious.

So yes, Sidious had the overall plan mapped out, but he gave his best effort against Master Windu and STILL would have lost had it not been for Anakin's intervention. Therefore, he did not fake the fight against Mace Windu.

 

Says who?

Look where Palpatine is in that first picture, then where he is in the second. He moves past Mace and puts himself in the corner. And that GIF doesn't capture it, but after being kicked, he quickly crawls over to the corner and then rests there until Anakin arrives. He doesn't immediately try to use Force lightning, there is a lull until Anakin walks in. What is Palpatine waiting for? If he can't sense Anakin is near/in the building, what exactly is he waiting for? If he wants to continue to fight with Force lightning, then why doesn't he? Why does he sit there and wait and only resume the fight when Anakin walks in?

He's goading Mace to kill him, because that would force Anakin to step in. And he can't do that until Anakin shows up.

Also, way back when the DVD first came out, there was a feature called script to screen where you could watch the DVD and it would offer either behind the scenes trivia or you could do a side-by-side comparison of the script with the scene. It had referred to the moment right before he gets kicked as Palpatine growing tired. Which obviously isn't the case, considering the whole "unlimited power!" thing.

As far as Palpatine not knowing Anakin is in the building. That is a baseless assumption.

This is a guy that that time and time again says things to the effect of "I have foreseen it," "everything that has transpired has done so according to my design," "everything is going as I have foreseen," etc.

Now the counter argument to that may be, "he's bluffing to make himself appear all knowing."

But then we have this:



The relevant portion begins at 1:16

Or how about this scene from ROTJ?



The exact same thing is happening in this scene as in ROTS. Palpatine says he is defenseless, he is goading an opponent to anger, and then Vader steps in and protects him. He put himself in a vulnerable position in an effort to turn Luke. Why is it somehow assumed that he wouldn't do the same to turn Anakin? And to put himself into such a vulnerable position would require that he allow Mace to get the upper hand. He can't put himself in a vulnerable position if he kills Mace or even stalemates with Mace.

He kills three Jedi, attacks Mace. Puts himself in the corner and "appears tired." Then when Anakin shows up, Mace again tries to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine goads Mace with Force lightning until Mace's decision goes from arresting Palpatine to killing Palpatine, and then Palpatine offers no further resistance, instead insisting he is weak and helpless, when that clearly isn't the case.

If Palpatine can foresee things, then odds are likely that he knew that Anakin was coming. Plus the saga had already established that Jedi can see things before they happen, it's why they appear to have quick reflexes, and Anakin and Obi-Wan can sense Padme is in danger despite being in the middle of a debate. That somehow Palpatine would have no idea that Anakin is coming/is near is difficult for me to believe in light of that. He had laid the groundwork by praising Anakin's wisdom in his decision to have Palpatine arrested, rather than kill him, but puts the doubt in Anakin's mind that the Jedi might kill him, which Anakin doesn't want. So when Mace shows up with the intent to arrest (which is what Anakin wants), Palpatine needs to goad Mace until Mace decides to kill Palpatine (which Anakin doesn't want), thereby driving a wedge between them.

If Palpatine was really out to kill Mace, then there was zero reason (emphasis on zero) for him to sit in his office waiting for the Jedi to show up. Yoda shows up and Palpatine tries to run and get help. And when Yoda slips away, Palpatine leaves things to the clone troopers rather than hunting down Yoda himself. There was no advantage to fighting Yoda. Yoda would have killed him if he could. Palpatine had nothing to gain and everything to lose. But with Mace, Palpatine knows full well what's about to happen. Anakin tells Palpatine to his face that he is going to report him to the Jedi. Palpatine tells Anakin he has great wisdom. He had plenty of time to fortify his position or orchestrate a pre-emptive strike against Mace Windu and the Jedi Temple. Instead he stays in his office and waits. To what end? If Mace kills him then that's it. The Sith are extinct and all of Palpatine's plans end. The only reason for him to allow himself to be in that position is in an effort to turn Anakin. Palpatine lets Anakin go report him, he praises the decision, he waits. He fights Mace and the other Jedi, and then seconds before Anakin walks through the door he puts himself into a compromising position, then he leaves his fate in Anakin's hands, knowing full well that Anakin isn't going to let Padme die. He had already put himself in Anakin's hands when he revealed himself to be a Sith and turned his back on Anakin, asking him "are you going to kill me?" and offering no resistance. He had more reason to count on Anakin defending him here than he had for believing Vader would defend him from Luke.

Now let's assume that Palpatine can't predict things and that this was just a real fight that Palpatine was trying to win. How is that conducive to Palpatine's plans? He lets Anakin report him. Four Jedi masters show up and he kills them all. Then what?

Anakin comes back and sees that four Jedi masters are dead, one of which had just gained Anakin's trust. That's going to drive Anakin even further away. What if Anakin tries to run off again and warn the Jedi of what happened? Is Palpatine just going to play this game forever?

He needed to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Jedi, and that wedge was created when he goaded Mace into trying to kill him and left himself in a vulnerable position. And he needed Anakin to get blood on his hands, because at that point there would be no going back for Anakin. If Anakin remained passive, then at any given time he could go running back to the Jedi, which is not something Palpatine could afford.

Palpatine killing Mace wouldn't have gotten him anywhere. And if he just wanted to kill the Jedi, then it seems like he would have surrounded himself with clones, considering he was a coward that tried to run from Yoda and left Yoda to the clones.

 

If you consider TCW canon than you know that Palpatine was more than capable than ending Mace Windu whenever he wanted more than likely. He beat the heck out of Savage and Maul at the same time. GL said in the audio commentary that Palpatine was aware and waiting for Anakin to walk in.(but I assume all of this has already been said in the earlier sections of this thread)

 

TaradosGon I am too sleepy to reply to your post right now, but I'm eager to continue this discussion.

 

I agree. Also Palpatine is winning the fight with Mace at first - practically taunting the Jedi. Mace's taking the upper hand in the fight is perfectly timed with Anakin's arrival. After Anakin cut's off Mace's hand - Palpatine immediatly uses more power than he had up that point in the fight and after using that power stands right up and isn't even winded.

In Palpatine's fight with Yoda he starts the fight with a volley of force power strong enough to knock out the Jedi Master. Then Palpatine literally throws the senate at Yoda. This proves that Palpatine is holding back with Mace Windu.

Then in Return of the Jedi - Palpatine does the same trick it looks like Luke could strike him down - but he knows Darth Vader will defend him. (Even if Vader didn't I wonder if Palpatine would have stopped Luke)

And as you said about the Clone Wars - from what we see on that show - Palpatine is definately holding back.

In short - Palpatine's duel with Mace Windu was more a show for Anakin than anything else.

 

It seems likely Palpatine knew Anakin would arrive.
However, I don't know if we will ever get a solid answer on how Palpatine would do up against Mace in a match where he isn't using Mace for a greater purpose. ROTS is pretty grey.

 

Sidious was fighting the second most powerful Jedi in existence. As you can see by his facial expressions, he is focusing entirely on the fight. He can't afford not to. He is powerful, yes, but he is not a god.

He was scrambling to get away from the purple deathstick advancing on him. As he was doing that, Anakin entered the room, and Sidious seized his opportunity. Not much else to it IMO.

 

it was a complete set up by palps. gl even says so on the commentary. palps let mace win and he almost assuredly had his second saber with him then too.

 

Actually he said the complete opposite.

 

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

george said only mace or yoda could compete with the emperor. only anakin could have defeated him.

 

He says it right there. He only faked once Anakin entered.