PT How planned (by Palpatine) was the confrontation involving Anakin and Mace in ROTS?

Darth Tenebrous, the master of Darth Plagueis, master of Darth Sidious, said that you can't use the Force to predict you own death; it just doesn't work. You can use a combination of statistics and predictions about the future of other people to map the time and place of you death. but Darth Tenebrous didn't teach that to his disciple, so Darth Sidious doesn't know that technique (and even if he knew, you probably need a Bith's brain to do it).

That said, in the EU Kadann, a fallen Jedi and one of Sidious's most important minions saw the Emperor's death above Endor, but Sidious was so arrogant that he dismissed it, decided that Kadann was useless as a prophet and ordered him killed (Kadann escaped).

 

A key thing to remember is that Palpatine sent that little telepathic message to Anakin while Anakin and Padme were in reverie. Palpatine knew that Anakin would act on it. After that, he tried to eliminate the Jedi he could and stall the fight with Mace till Anakin got there (remember, he knew Anakin would come due to that psychological warfare he's been playing -- he knew he would do anything for Padme). I think it is fully possible that Mace did surprise Palpatine with the kick, and there might have been some genuine fear there. But then once the lightning begins it's all staging. Palpatine makes it look like he's a victim getting deformed by Mace by letting the lightning rebound back into his own face. Eventually this wins over Anakin's sympathy and Anakin stops Mace. All according to plan. Executing Dooku earlier was just a test to see if Anakin was really under Palpatine's spell, and he was. After that, the plan proceeded as predicted.

I have to say, Palpatine really was a genius when you look at the big picture of his plans and how he delivered them. It seems his only real weakness has been the Amidala genes of idealism (Padme, Luke).

 

Not planned at all. A pure improvisation on Palpatine´s part.

 

The whole scene was orchestrated by Palpatine. Reasons for this:

• He was already armed with a lightsaber and knew the event was going to take place.
• He made quick work of the other Jedi masters, who were highly adept in combat.
• It's no coincidence Palpatine chose Windu from all the other Jedi masters to be the 'tool' he would use, Anakin already had a strained relationship with him and Windu didn't trust Anakin; as stated earlier by him. I believe Palpatine was trying to exploit Anakin's attachment issues, after all, him and Anakin were friends.
• Palpatine himself says to Windu "No! No! No! you will die!", this is indicative of what's to come- the Sith lord knows this and takes it as fact.
• George Lucas et al. as well as the Star Wars database state Yoda being a more accomplished duelist and stronger force user than Windu, yet Palpatine beat Yoda.
• Palpatine's facial expressions and excitement during Anakin's conflict show his true intentions from the beginning as well him yelling "You must choose!".
• Sidious talks about being "too weak" yet screams "unlimited power!" moments later.

I don't understand how this is still being debated. George Lucas himself said Palpatine we feigning weakness in the ROTS commentary!

 

But, he didn't say that. He said he was feigning weakness AFTER he had been defeated by Mace.

 

Well, I dont think he predicted Mace,Kit Fisto Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar would be coming to arrest him, but once the stage was set, with Anakin as a watcher, he took advantage of it.

I might be wrong. Palpatine was a master schemer, as we all know. Its just that it seemed improvised.

 

I always chuckle at this topic. This always seems straightforward to me. Palpatine takes down several Jedi in seconds than proceeds to go against Mace. Just as Anakin runs in Mace manages to disarm him and has him on his back. When I saw the movie, I couldn't see it any other way. Only when I got to these boards did I see some thought that Mace was able to do all that himself.

Despite the grand strategy to create the Empire and turn Anakin...he needed a moment like that where Anakin has to choose, one way or another. That was it. He knew Mace wouldn't take Anakin, but that Anakin would sit it out given what was at stake. Palpatine concocted the whole thing.

 

since I think Mace Windu is a badass, I love to think Mace kicked Palps's butt and the whole dual was a heat of the moment thing/improvised......but I have strong suspicion that the whole thing was planned in it's entirety.

There is no way someone like Palps who engineered TCW and the division of the Republic could not have predicted the Jedi would come to arrest him the moment Anakin found out that he's a Sith. He knew at that moment that Anakin was still conflicted and would tell on him. Than add how he knows what Windu who was the head Jedi since Yoda was not present felt about Anakin and how logic would tell you that Windu/Jedi would not trust Anakin and that Skywalker still wanted to find the secrets to save his wife would not be able to ignore his desires. He takes out all the Jedis present but Mace, the one who never really believed in Anakin....

 

LOVE these kind of threads that try to argue Palpatine is a god who is the best at everything, not only can he plan absolutely everything to a pin point, he can also "forsee" what Yarael Poof is going to have for breakfast in 16 days time. Not to mention the best duellist to walk the face of the galaxy.

Palpatine is an awesome character...my favourite in the Lucas Saga. He is a master manipulator that can manipulate events to his advantage, this out-right stated in TPM. He is good at taking situations and then having them go his way, that's it, that is his strength and how he got to be the big bad of the galaxy. NOT by being God-Skeletor from the Masters Of The Universe movie. It makes him a far more compelling villain (to my mind) to have him have weaknesses. That is what makes a character work. Again, Sidious is my favourite but I have no problem believing that Mace legit beat him in saber combat. And that he was in genuine fear of his life.

 

I agree with most of your post. But I never claimed Palpatine predicted everything. He improvised based on broader predictions. He intentionally puts himself in volatile situations because as a megalomaniac he assumes he can work everything and everyone to his desired outcome.

But he was "in genuine fear of his life"? You are just as gullible as Anakin...

 

I dunno, Mace Windu is a pretty powerful Jedi and not to be underestimated, he is high (maybe second) on the Jedi council. I think it would be wrong to under-estimate him. Suppose that Palpatine IS stronger than Windu, I don't think it would be a massive difference in power. Two other things

1) he had a lightsaber inches from his face, remember "only a fool fears nothing"

2) he didn't know 100 per cent (in my mind) Anakin was going to turn at that point.

As I say for me personally internally wiping sweat and saying to himself "boy was that a close one" is more interesting than "knew it would happen, I have no fear what-so-ever-

you could also argue -though I must admit I am plucking this out of thin air- it was Palpatine's fear that helped him win that confrontation in the end. Sith feed on fear.

 

The wrong question is being asked. Did Palps need Anakin to defeat Mace? The answer is clearly no. If he was essentially responsible for the reign of the Sith, then he wouldn't be completing a prophesy by bringing balance to something he himself unbalanced. Lucas masterfully made Anakin important to Palp's reign, but not his rise. Palpatine could have taken power with any Sith apprentice by his side. It was important that it was Anakin for the sake of the prophesy.

What he needed was to create a point of no return for Anakin. Essentially, Palpatine's whole process was to create scenarios that seemed to always require immediate attention so the Jedi (including Anakin) could never ask if it was the right decision but rather that they'd act now and sort it out later because they viewed the situations as not allowing for contemplation. Haste makes waste. Using real history, things always seem obvious in hindsight. Most dictators don't rise by simply kung-fu'ing their way to power. They do it by tricking the population with misdirection.

He could have killed Mace, but having Anakin chop his hand off (for many reasons) made Anakin think he was complicit. Top that with then seeing Palpatine's full power and realizing he was trapped with no immediate help. "What have I done?" He felt both guilt and fear.

But now that the why has been established, let's go back to the what. It was set up as HevyDevy (Devin Townsend ) beautifully illustrated. If you watch the YouTube video of the fight in this thread, you can see that Palpatine takes out 75% of the Jedi cop force with incredible ease. He then toys with Mace, even sticking his saber right to his chest with plenty of time to strike, but doesn't. He chose Mace because Mace had the most "dark side" in him of the Jedi Masters. That is framed perfectly with the gif in this thread where Mace clashes with Sidious with intense hatred in his eyes. Even better, you see the red saber in that shot with Mace, not his purple saber. I doubt that was on accident. Mace just lost his friends, been toyed with and he's getting angry. At the same time, Anakin arrives at the building. Palpatine senses this and suddenly the fight goes from Palpatine offense to Palpatine defense. Perfect alignment an accident? No way. He's drawn out the anger in Mace and is now starting his retreat so he looks defenseless by the time Anakin arrives. It is in a different room than where the 3 dead Jedi are. All Anakin sees is Mace busting into Palpatine's office, screaming at him and threatening to kill him.

This is definitely the intent of Lucas as he has Mace scream "He's too dangerous to be left alive", which is what Palps said to Anakin about Dooku. Anakin was obviously conflicted about that, so that was about the worst thing for Mace to say in Anakin's presence. Mace had to be in the process of a striking blow for Anakin to act. There was no doubt in Anakin's mind that if he didn't, Palps is dead. Not only could this doom Padme, but it wasn't the Jedi way. And from the guy that constantly lectured him about the Jedi way no less.

So that answers why Palpatine chose Mace of the 4 Jedi cops and how every frame mattered.

This whole sequence was to force Anakin's hand, literally. In a sense, he was tricked into the dark side with essentially the RIGHT MOVE according to the Jedi way. Not just the capture v. kill aspect, but Anakin saw an armed person killing a defenseless person. Further, that person was the key to his family's survival. The same family he had to hide from the Jedi, which he probably figured had to do with her death in childbirth. Obviously he couldn't just take her to a Coruscant OB/gyn and later the Jedi hospital his insurance plan covers. Just like the Jedi kept him from saving his mother despite Obi-Wan knowing Anakin's premonition.

He went to the dark side to save his family and do the right thing. He then returned to the light side in the exact same circumstances. Emperor armed killing unarmed Luke. Luke, his family. It was Mace / Palps all over. Luke/Padme all over. RotJ wasn't Luke's test. It was Anakin's.

But the most important thing to remember is it isn't a prophesy if the chosen one is also the reason for the unbalance. It is self-defeating. So you can't have the situation where Palps would have succumbed to Mace if not for Anakin. Start there and work backwards. It really blew my mind because right before Ep.3, that was something I constantly thought about. How is Lucas going to pull this off without also negating the entire point of Ep.6 at the same time? It is also why I think people that think the Prequel Trilogy is trash really don't understand the movie they are making fun of. That's on them, not Lucas. Asking you to think things through should be the norm in movies, not the exception.

 

I'm kind of in between in my reading.

I think his satisfied sigh "Aaaah" after Windu's death does indicate he was relieved that it had gone to plan.

I agree Mace was powerful, but I think Palpatine wouldn't have put himself in the position where this would be a problem if he didn't think Anakin would not stay away. He's been working the boy for years, and is arguably totally in Anakin's head.

I agree he was putting himself at a risk, but that is kind of the destructive nature of the character to me. I think it is a little like predicting the Rebel's attack in ROTJ, he foresaw Anakin would be there at the crucial moment.

Interesting about Palpatine; his feeding on fear. The movies show the Sith do turn fear into a weapon. I'm not sure if I can agree Palpatine was particularly fearful though.

Anakin's fear was kind of Palaptine's greatest weapon ultimately.

 

I don't think it really denigrates Mace as a master swordsman. If anything, it helps make the scene all the more realistic in Anakin's eyes when he enters. It helps sell the deception.

I also don't have a problem with Palpatine orchestrating, yet still prepared for when things don't pan out exactly as he planned. His plans always seem to have contingencies.

Perhaps he considered all 3 (or more scenarios acceptable)
1. He turns Anakin instead of Anakin turning him in the scene just prior.
2. The scene that actually happened in the movie
3. Anakin doesn't stop Mace, so he had another backup plan.

Also, in the novel, he plays the recording of the "Jedi attack" to the Senate. So that obviously played into exactly what he wanted. The scars help sell it. And the senate all know Mace is a bad Mofu, because they all collect the Mace wallet at the Jedi gift shop. Looks like the Jedi let their own power corrupt them.

Further, the novel talks about how the space battle saber battle had it where either Kenobi or Skywalker were acceptable dark side converts. Dooku wanted Kenobi and Palps wanted Skywalker. Poor Dooku lost that bet and then some.

 

Interesting points Jester J Binks.

Particularly interesting your idea that Anakin can't be both the cause and solution of the balance. I think Palpatine turning Anakin was indeed just the icing on the cake. Palpatine being greedy, which will of course will come back and bite him on the ass in ROTJ.

 

That would seem to explain why Dooku refrains from killing Obi-Wan when he has him at his mercy. Though the way I always saw it, sans the novel's explanation, was that Sidious gave Dooku prior instructions to leave Obi-Wan alive but in a compromised position, so that Anakin would be forced to make a choice to abandon his friend to death in order to ensure his own survival. Sort of another first step on his introduction to the dark side: a "soft" version of sacrificing a loved one on the altar of selfishness. To be honest, I still prefer that explanation.

I think Sidious thought for sure that Anakin would leave Obi-Wan to die, and that as a result he'd be pushing Anakin one step closer towards the dark side in addition to being rid of Obi-Wan--killing two birds with one stone. Of course Anakin didn't go that route, and too bad for Sidious, because Obi-Wan really screwed a lot of things up for him in the end. The first instance of Sidious's complete lack of understanding about the concept of compassion totally biting him in the ass and ultimately dooming him.

 

This is to much of a gamble. I dont buy it.

 

Sidious is a megalomaniacal mastermind. He wouldn't see it as a gamble because he has total confidence in his predicted outcome. Besides, you don't get the big rewards unless you take the big risks. Sidious's whole evil career is an exemplification of that.

 

mace saber is like a thumb from his nose. he is crawling, his lighting hands are on the floor.... c mon.... thats not a working plan.

 

Really? Because, uh, it worked.

 

well, it looks like catching the best from and oportunity than having an evil plan carefuly crafted.

anyway, when the almighty sidious card is played is very difficoult to argue. Yet, its a clear pbjective picture of maces blade an inch from crawling palps nose against an interpretation.

 

Many thanks to HevyDevy for the nod in his original post for this thread.

Some, if not all, of this might be redundant in comparison to hevy's original post, but, I don't think I have ever written down my thoughts in their entirety on this subject.

For me, I see that everything that transpired did so at Palpatine's desire.

It took some time for me to notice how Palpatine manipulates all the events we see in ROTS into that one final culmination in his office. There is no accident, there is no chance, he was playing chess, while unfortunately everyone else was playing checkers.

First of all, we see at the beginning of ROTS that Palpatine is a prisoner of Dooku. So we all know that Palpatine was Dooku's Sith Master, and with Palpatine playing both sides of the war, thus Palpatine is the one giving Dooku his marching orders, than it should be fairly obvious this is a setup for something bigger in Palpatine's master plan, his overall agenda.

That being Palpatine knows how powerful Anakin has become, Palpatine knows how influential he has become in Anakin's life. Palpatine is ready to move forward on Order 66 and his move to make his Empire, what he is waiting on is to see if Anakin is ready to take the next step towards the Dark Side.

So a test is needed for Anakin. A test where Palpatine can be present to not only see for himself how powerful Anakin has become, but also to see if Anakin can be persuaded if need be. Hence the battle of Coruscant.

If Anakin passes Palpatines test, than Palpatine knows it is time to move forward on his overall master plan. If Anakin fails the test and is killed by Dooku, well than Anakin was never going to be ready and Palpatine moves forward with his master plan.

So Anakin passes Palpatines test, he shows he Is powerful as he defeats Dooku, Anakin shows he is willing to use the Dark Side to tap that power, and Palpatine sees that Anakin can be persuaded to act against what he knows is right in the name of emotion, selfishness and revenge.

Palpatine knows it is now time to move his master plan forward, he knows Anakin is primed and ready to be put into a position to make his final decision.

So after the crash landing, Mace and Palpatine have a very important exchange that Is the next step in Palpatines plan:

This is a very important step in Palpatines plan because he sets up the parameters that need to be fulfilled that will end the war and he gives up his emergency powers. He knows the Jedi want the war to end and want him to return his power back to the Senate. He has put it in the minds of the Jedi that this will only happen when the Jedi have killed or captured Grievous. Palpatine knows that once Grievous is out of the picture, the Jedi will come calling for him to make good on his promise. Basically Palpatine is setting up when he will make his final move! No accident, no luck, no playing it by ear, no taking advantage of situations! He is being very systematic in his approach to bringing his plan to fruition.

For the next step, we see Palpatine start moving a few of his chess pieces around.



In this specific case he wants the Separatists leaders moved to Mustafar. Why? Well because he wants the Separatists Leaders isolated and not near a droid army because he knows that part of his plan is to eliminate them when the time comes. When it comes to that time he wants it done swiftly and without delay. Isolating the leadership away from their armies allows this to happen without a huge battle erupting that could slow down their murders. The other reason is he wants them off Utapau is because Palpatine knows he is going to be throwing Grievous under the bus very soon, and Sidious doesn't want the Separatists Leadership on Utapau in case they get captured before he has a chance to execute the plan.

So far Palpatine has:

1. Figured out that Anakin is ready to become a Sith
2. Told the Jedi the one thing that would bring the war to an end resulting in him returning his power back to the Senate. That being Grievous killed or captured.
3. Moves the Separatists into an isolated position where they have no army, so they are vulnerable when the time comes.

So now that Palpatine has everyone in his trap, what's the next step? Spring the trap!

Who is it that tells the Jedi where to find Grievous? Well it's Palpatine! Why does he tell the Jedi where to find Grievous? Because Palpatine is ready to bring everything to a head. He is confident the Jedi will succeed in killing or capturing Grievous, and he is confident and more than likely has foreseen the Jedi beating Grievous. Once this happens, they will come calling on him to end the war and give up his powers.

Afterall he is the one that told the Jedi that this is what needed to happen. See how he has set them up? See how he has set the parameters for when and how his plan unfolds? This is no accident! Palpatine has manipulated everyone into specific courses of actions that he dictates when those actions take place. He knows once he tells the Jedi where Grievous is, then he can anticipate everything else unfolding.

Palpatine says he won't give up his powers until the Jedi kill or capture Grievous, and then Palpatine tells the Jedi where to find Grievous. Clearly, this isn't an accident, or playing things by ear, or using situations to his advantage! He told the Jedi what the one thing is that would end the war and make him give the his powers back, and than he tells the Jedi where to find that one thing. Purposeful and calculating on Palpatine's part! He is ready for that final confrontation to happen!

So now, the Jedi send Obi Wan and he engages Grievous. Anakin than goes to Palpatine to let him know that Obi Wan has in fact found and engaged Grievous. What is Palpatine's next step? He than admits to being the Sith Lord that the Jedi are looking for. He admits to being on both sides of the war. He is able to use his position as a friend and father figure to Anakin to put doubt into Anakin's head as to what is the correct path. He further confuses Anakin with telling Anakin that he can save Padme.

This isn't accidental,or playing things by ear! After 10+ years of being Anakin's friend and father figure, Palpatine clearly knows and understands what drives Anakin. Palpatine knows that once Obi Wan has beaten Grievous, the Jedi are coming straight to Palpatine, just like they did when they showed up on the docking bay deck after Dooku's death because they thought that was enough to end the war.

So Palpatine, by admitting to Anakin that his is the Sith, is now growing that seed that was planted in Anakins mind earlier at the opera about the Dark Side and it's ability to save people from dying. That seed that Palpatine planted at the opera is now growing in Anakin's mind, and is now being nurtured by Palpatine that he has the power to save Padme...

This isn't an accident or some silly dialogue. This is Palpatien ensuring that Anakin will be there at the final confrontation when it happens, because Palpatine has told Anakin that he (Anakin) needs Palpatine in order to save Padme. That the Jedi can't save Padme, that the Republic can't, that the light side of the Force can't.. Only the Dark Side can, Only a Sith can, Only Palpatine can. This ensures Anakin will be there as the final confrontation happens. One way or the other, Anakin is going to be there to see what happens...

So to me, everything that happened in ROTS was planned. Even the part where Anakin shows up at the final confrontation is planned. Because Palpatine made himself the most important thing in the galaxy in those moments.

 

With Sidious, I have to think he plans everything.He doesnt know what Padme's hairstyle is going to be the next day, but that's about it. He knows his enemy and knows what drives them, so with his power, he can essentially predict what they would do in his orchestrated schemes.The fact that Anakin is rushing over to palpatines office, even though he is the one who revealed the chancellor's identity to the Jedi, has me to believe that he truly doesnt trust the Jedi intentions in arresting Palpatine. And I don't believe Sidious said exactly this when he first admits who he is for no reason(and was probably communicating with him telepathically before they arrived). Sidious knew Anakin would intervene. He's always planting a seed of distrust or fear within the members. These are feelings that are exploited by masters of the dark side.The moment they fall into feeding into that, they are being pulled by his strings. So really, it's all planned.

And you know what's funny, even the Jedi can know it, and it wouldnt make any difference. Seriously, Windu told Anakin to stay back because he thought his relationship to the chancellor would cloud his judgement. He thinks by not having him there they can apprehend the chancellor without any trouble(even though they do expect a fight). But it's the simple fact he mentions this to a Jedi who he has somewhat antagonized and openly distrusts that puts even further doubt into Anakin's mind. "I gave you the intel to save the Republic. I know that implies he will be arrested and with a scuffle. You think I will prevent that? Against four Jedi? Why would I even tell you, or even volunteer to go with? Maybe it's you who won't stay true to that objective." It's very similar to when Palpatine appoints Anakin as a representative on the council, teasing his promotion to Jedi Master. He knows how the Jedi will respond, which makes it pretty simple to predict how Anakin would react. Again, he knows his enemy, so he knows what they would do before anything even happens.

 

for a guy who is almighty and knows everything.... damn... obi and yoda really pull a fast one on him hiding the babies from a pregnant padme...

Palpatine is not perfect. He is just a big gambler who takes the best from situations. But he never, ever has only one plan. He quickly can pass from plan a, to b, to c. And I can assure you Anakin intervining at the last moment was not plan a.

 

"he can essentially predict what they would do in his orchestrated schemes" I never said he knew the future entirely or can sense everything in the entire galaxy. With Padme's situation, there isn't any canonical evidence Sidious knew (at the time) she had successfully given birth or was involved in her death. So we cant ask how their simple existence slipped his mind. He's arrogant, just like the Jedi were.

But in this specific scenario he is involved in EVERY WAY. He knows
A) That they will come
B) Who will inform them and how I can manipulate this person beforehand
C) Essentially how the confrontation will play out. Meaning simply, if I retaliate, they will defend and attack, and I can delay this as long as I want.


So if the question is if he planned the confrontation, the answer is "Of course. He invited it."
As for how detailed did he map out this event? Well, the only thing he didn't completely know was if Anakin would show up. It probably took him by surprise that he wasnt with them initially,so he could be easily seen as buying time until he arrived.
But would he question whether Anakin would show up at all? One of the best Jedi warriors in the galaxy. The Chosen One? Not being there to personally put away the Sith threat? He knew Anakin would be there. He probably had a force vision of this entire event(perhaps only a portion of this entire scenario, though).

Also, do we know the full extent of control someone can have when they have immense power in the dark side? A Jedi temple over a Sith shrine, a Sith lord could control,channel thoughts, or at least count on dark side clouding the choices made within. Being that this is where Anakin was thinking before coming to help, he could know for sure what decision he would make.