Discussion How powerful in the Force should Luke be in the ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by darth ladnar, Mar 30, 2014.

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How powerful in the Force should Luke be in the ST?

This poll will close on Mar 30, 2016 at 4:30 PM.
Slightly more powerful than he was in ROTJ and slightly wiser about the ways of the Force 3 vote(s) 3.8%
Slightly more powerful than he was in ROTJ and slightly wiser and with more/new Force abilities 7 vote(s) 8.9%
Slightly more powerful than he was in ROTJ and just as wise as Yoda 4 vote(s) 5.1%
Just below the most powerful in combat (equal to Mace maybe) and just below the top in wisdom 7 vote(s) 8.9%
Just below the most powerful in combat but just as wise as they are or with more/new Force abilities 6 vote(s) 7.6%
As powerful in combat as Yoda or Palpatine but not as wise as they are about the ways of the Force 7 vote(s) 8.9%
As powerful in combat as Yoda and Palpatine and also as wise as they are about the ways of the Force 9 vote(s) 11.4%
More powerful than Yoda or Palpatine in combat and wiser and/or with more Force abilities 6 vote(s) 7.6%
As powerful as the Chosen One if Anakin had reached his full potential 19 vote(s) 24.1%
More powerful than the Chosen One at his full potential or any Jedi/Sith ever 11 vote(s) 13.9%
  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah that happens a lot, but luckily when the consultant is George Lucas and the movie is Star Wars, he's probably afforded a bit more deference than the usual consultant.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  2. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    . . . is he? It wouldn't surprise me if he's treated with about as much deference as Harve Bennet had for Gene when making the original Star Trek movies. Spoiler alert: They actively ignored everything he said. For the better obviously.

    I mean, sure they're using GL's storyline, but it's up to the film makers to interpret and translate it however they like. So, if Lucas has an idiotic idea or suggestion (as we all know he will. Moraband my ass!) you better believe they'll change or reject anything they care to. It's just the nature of the beast.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  3. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    such as color-coded lightsabers and Darths other than Vader
    Darth_Downunder likes this.
  4. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    It's also entirely possible, nay probable, that the filmmakers don't possess the inexplicable hatred for the creator of this universe that you do, and for that I'm very grateful.

    And for the record, I happen to prefer Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek to anyone else's as well, but even so that was a different situation from the ST which is literally the completion of Lucas's story, and another discussion altogether.
  5. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    They should give some credit to any ideas that Lucas proposes.
  6. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Ah, yes. The, "UR just a meany hater," defense. Cute, but irrelevant to this discussion. I'm not the one with the apparent chip on his shoulder here, silly.

    In fact, if you read my earlier post you'd see that I actually AGREE with GL on this particular issue (Luke having the same potential in the Force as his father). It's just that I a agree with him because it makes the most sense to me logically, not because he said it in some random interview. As such, TPTB should follow suit and make decisions based on what makes sense. Not Lucas' petty whims.

    And I think the situations are 100% comparable. Like Roddenberry, Lucas came up with a giant franchise. That doesn't mean he always knows what's best for it.
    Last edited by Heero_Yuy, Apr 3, 2014
  7. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3

    Yes, but GL has said that there are limitations. He says the type of Force power seen in the 2003 Clone Wars hand-drawn animated series simply is not possible. In that series, you see Mace Force lift a thousand battle droids and Yoda steer Star Destroyers into each other, and Lucas said that the Force can never be that powerful. I also don't think anyone involved in the ST would just dismiss GL's opinions and do things his own way. These people respect Lucas.
  8. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The 2003 Clone Wars cartoon is pretty abysmal.
    Mystery Roach likes this.
  9. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    The situations aren't comparable because in this case we're talking about the completion of one man's story as opposed to the continuing of a franchise which was based on a series of unrelated stories. There is a huge difference. I happen to think that no one but the creator of a story is in more of a position to know what's best for that story, even if not a single other person agrees with them. In my view it's just as presumptuous for anyone to think they know better than an author how to finish that person's story as it would be for me to think I was qualified to put the finishing touches on the Mona Lisa or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
  10. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Yeah, those Force powers as seen in TFU and the 2003 CW microseries were pretty ridiculous. I don't think that saying that is at odds with what Yoda says to Luke in TESB.
  11. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I like when The Force is weaker because the galaxy shouldn't be controlled by Jedi-Sith wars.
    Last edited by purplerain, Apr 3, 2014
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Chris Claremont wrote better X-Men comics than Stan Lee.

    That's just one random example from the top of my head.

    Why always this creator worshiping? Every creator worth his salt doesn't need positive feedback all the time. You do it because you love the craft, not because people applaud you for it. I'm pretty sure some of the best stories on this planet are hidden in a drawer.

    And Lucas willingly stepped down. He must have known that SW would change with him leaving and he was definitely okay with that, because otherwise he wouldn't have stepped down and let others play in his sandbox.
    Heero_Yuy likes this.
  13. Jair Crawford Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    I'd say, just a bit under how powerful Anakin would have been if he had reached his full potential as the Chosen One.

    Not AS powerful, but close.
  14. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight...will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

    "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need"

    -Jedi Master Yoda

    The notion that Luke is some half-trained n00b at the end of the OT is pure codswallop.
    BigAl6ft6, purplerain and Darth_Pevra like this.
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Seeing as Yoda's just about to die - he's not exactly going to tell Luke that he still has a lot to learn.

    I figure the emphasis should be put on "that which you need" - he doesn't know everything an Old Republic Jedi about to be promoted to Knight would know - but he knows the important things.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  16. DarthWilliams Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2008
    star 4
    Luke conqurered neither. Vader conquered the Emperor and, in the process, himself.

    Isn't it possible that Yoda was either a) talking specifically about the mission on which he was about to go; or b) wrong?


    The notion that after two brief stints on Dagobah with Yoda spread across two years that Luke was a fully-trained Jedi when The Chosen One himself started training at the age of 10 (which gave the Council pause because even THAT was too old) and was still a Padawan a decade later is also codswallop.
    darth ladnar and Iron_lord like this.
  17. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Lucas stepped down but not before writing the story to finish his saga. If you started writing a story over a series of books which turned out to be the most popular series of books in the world, and you had an ending planned, would you mind if someone else stepped in and decided to scrap your ending and finish the series their own way?

    The equivalent in comics would not be who writes better stories, but whether someone else should come in and finish a story that Chris Claremont began. Not the same thing as just writing other stories set in the same universe.
    Last edited by Mystery Roach, Apr 3, 2014
  18. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Oh no? The version of the movie I watched involved Luke so thoroughly vanquishing Vader that he stopped wanting to be Darth Vader

    c) the mission that you think he was about to go on isn't the same mission that Luke actually went on. Moreover, Yoda specifically told Luke "pass on what you have learned." Given the dangers of Force instruction, that's not a task likely to be entrusted to a half-trained n00b.
    Oh, I get it. You seem to be conflating the duration of training with level of mastery. Not the same. I discuss this a greater length in this thread. But I'll provide a couple of examples. The first is actually a quote from that thread:

    One particular school of thought asserts that they learn about the Force constantly, from birth until they're considered Knights in their late teens/early 20's, or Master when they're in their late 30's/early 40's. For sake of discussion, let's assume that this is correct; they train from infancy. Now consider this group here:

    [IMG]

    They look to be about 5 or 6 years old. Let's be generous and say they're five. Let's also be generous and say that they didn't start this particular regimen until they were three years old. Now consider-

    [IMG]

    This suggests that what normally takes an "average" apprentice Jedi two or three years to learn, Luke Skywalker figured out in about five minutes. So however many weeks or months Luke was on Dagobah was plenty of time for Yoda to teach him all the "tricks" of the Force. I assert that Yoda was trying to teach Luke how to be a Jedi. Which is ironic, considering that Vader told Luke that he wanted to complete his training, which -in a way- he actually did.

    Second point about duration of training: Darth Vader spent twenty years under the tutelage of Lord Sidious....to be able to do the very same stuff he was able to do at the start of his dark side career, namely

    [IMG]

    [IMG]


    So....no. Level of mastery and length of training have very little to do with one another.

    Also, as I assert in that thread, "Padawan Luke" in ESB exhibits skills and techniques in the Force that rival or surpass those of Knights, Masters, and Council members in the PT.

    So I have no problem believing that ST Luke would leave those guys in the dust.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Apr 3, 2014
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Though Vader's Force choke range does seem to be greater in TESB.
  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    How great of a distance is that anyway?
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    From one part of the Executor to another. It's anyone's guess how far that actually was, but in any event it's nothing compared to Palpatine's long-distance choke in TCW.
  22. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Agreed, there are definitely limitations, but moving a ship around isn't one of them bcs we've seen Yoda do it on screen. What's more Yoda obviously thought Luke could do it even as an inexperienced apprentice. He made a pretty good attempt at it too. Now think of how much stronger with the Force Luke was after just 1 year in RotJ. Now think about how much stronger he will be after 30 years in EpVII !

    I'd also add that lifting a ship out of a swamp, buried beneath water as Yoda did should be much harder than pushing a ship around in the weightless vacuum of space ;)
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Trade Federation ships, actually. In the CW era the "Star Destroyer" analogues were on the Republic side.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 3, 2014
    darth ladnar likes this.
  24. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3

    Well, I'm going to go super-nerd on this one. The weightless vacuum of space would only be helpful if Force telekinesis is not related to an object's mass but instead to its weight. If Force telekinesis is related to mass and not to weight, then a massive ship would be much more difficult to move than a small X-wing bound by a planet's gravity.

    Also, in these questionably canonical sources, Yoda and the guy from the TFU were altering the courses of those ships against the thrust of those ships' engines. There were guys steering those ships, and they would have clearly seen that they were being pushed off course, so they would've tried to steer their ships back on course. That means Yoda and TFU guy were overcoming the engine thrust of those massive ships, and the thrust to move ships of that size would be incredibly tremendous, far more than the force of gravity.

    Man, I think my post here is going to end up as dialogue on the Big Bang Theory at some point!
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 3, 2014
  25. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well I'll see your super-nerd & raise you some ultra-nerd ;)

    Weight is a function of mass + the strength of the gravitational field that is in play. Another factor could be buoyant matter within an object such as gas, but that doesn't really apply here. My comment was just about the X-Wing that Yoda lifted & moved around, not TFU & some "massive ship". On Dagobah Yoda's power overcame the mass of the ship & the gravitational pull of the planet which = the weight. Also added was the weight & the resistance of the water & the resistance of the air through which he moved the ship. I'm saying that in deep space those forces & obstacles (apart from mass) aren't a factor so it should be easier to push an X-Wing sized ship around. As you say the thrust from a ship in motion could be another force to contend with, but it could also help depending on which direction you tried to move it.

    I agree though, BBT could definitely make use of this conversation :)
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Apr 3, 2014
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