How powerful is Palp/DS/Emp anyway?

Everyone seems to think that he is some emensly powerful being. Why? What would ever make you belive he could fight his way out of a paper bag? We only KNOW and I mean realy KNOW of him having one force power lightning, and its not that hot. Luke is talking during and up immediatly after. It can't even save him from a beat up, handless cyborg.

We know the dark side is cloading the jedi's vision but is that something he is actively doing or is it he is woring in the dark side and that natrualy shields him from the jedi. When was the last time the jedi had to worry about the sith. Maybe they just can't see into the dark side very well, and since that is where he is opperating the cloading isn't something he causes just takes advantage of.

As the Emp he talks about feeling this and forseeing that, but it could be all talk. In TESB he talks about Luke, but Luke was a big hero in the rebelion it wouldn't be a stretch that Emperial Inteligence would send the Emp a memo about this guy. Its a safe bet that he is Ani's son and that he is strong with the force do to his running around with OB1 on the death star. In ROTJ he talks about things as he has forseen. We also know of Vader sencing things Emp doesn't. Maybe "forseen" is double talk for "planned on" In some ways in the OT Emp reminds me of Cleo or that guy who talks to dead people. Can you say charlitan? The only thing we see him try is to turn Luke and crush the rebelion, and he failes at both, and loses his , most powerful weapon, aprentise and life in the attempt. Not an impresive show of power from him as the Emp.

As DS we don't see him DO anything. In TPM we see DS get his apprentis killed and his plan fail. In AOTC we see his aprentis rats him out to the jedi at the first opportunity. In all fairness it is his plan that gets the war started. So as DS he has about a 25% sucess rate, doesn't smack of unstopable power to me.

Now as Palp the situation changes. He becomes a senater, judging the mood of the senate and the queen to become chancelor, Once again uses politics to become emporer. Everything he tries as Palp he gets, but does he use the force? Coy politicians from the dawn of man have acomplished the same thing without force powers.

So is this guy just realy, realy, REALY smart, or is he that powerful? Why do you think that?

Dagsy edit: This forum is non-spoiler. Please leave all Ep3 spoiler information out of the threads.

 

Both.

Palpatine is a genius, second only in brains to Thrawn. He is also strong in the Force. Some of what he's saying may be bluffs, but most is true sensing. Palpatine intentionally started the war to gain emergency powers and eliminate the Jedi. Maul perishing was an unfortunate setback, but AotC was a complete success. Dooku didn't betray Sidious, he merely taunting in the true Sith fasion of du moch, or conquering the opponant's spirit. Obi-Wan and the Jedi were powerless to stop Sidious. They didn't even know who he was, and didn't suspect Palpatine. He was completely safe. He masked his identity with the Force and gained the Jedi's trust. And the Clone Wars resulted in the *unfortunate* deaths of the mojarity of the Jedi Order. I've heard rumors of a Palpatine saber fight in EpIII. So you see, Palpatine used a combination of brains and power in his ascent to power.

Warrior_of_Mandalore Strikes Again!

 

To simply answer the question, Palpatine is the most powerful of all.
I really can't follow your points on how in Ep1 and Ep2 he failed on some tasks and that he had about 25% success because it isn't so! Palpatine's plans were executed exactly as he wanted to, and Maul's death didn't affect his initial goal to become Chancellor of the Republic. The fact alone that he can hide his true nature from the Jedi Counsil speaks of his mastery over the Dark Side of the Force...

 

...second only in brains to Thrawn...

Are you completely sure? Palpatine single-handedly took control of the galaxy, and while Thrawn was a brilliant tactician, Palpatine was also very intelligent. I'm not exactly sure who's smarter.

 

Grand Admiral Thrawn holds no weight here. I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's just a tip for future considerations when you're writing into threads.

In my opinion: Emperor Palpatine is so powerful because he keeps Darth Vader somewhat subdued and subserviant to him throughout the Original Trilogy.

Obviously, he wields great power considering he wasn't seen brandishing a lightsaber -- or even a blaster for that matter. (Of course he used blue Force lightning which only strengthens my case.)

In order to rise to the tyrannical position he received between Episodes I and IV, he'd be demanded to have a exceptional mastery of the Force.

<[-]> Saber

 

He is clearly a genious, the most canny politician ever, and of an intelligence of an extra ordinary magnitude. There are some good points but I can't help feel like we WANT him to be ridiculasly force strong. Hitler, Nepolian, Atila, Stalin, all gained enormis political power with out the force at all. So imagian what one of them could have done with just a little. We have ample evidence to support his briliance, but I still don't see why he needs to be so force powerful to acomplish what he does.

DM was about 20 years of hard work and it was DS's plan and training that led to his fall. If his forsight is so hot why depleat the invasion force? Why send DM into a bad situation? Maybe the light side blinds his vision of the jedi.

Shure OB1 didn't believe DT but DT did still tell him that DS controled the senate. A risky gamble if planned and with as much work as DS put into his secret identity, I'm not shure how much he have liked the idea of telling them the truth of the situation. What makes you believe that the dark hiding Palp is of his own creation. I can hide by staying in the dark, I don't have to shut off the lights somewhere else to do that. All we know is he is actively hiding, not that he is making what he is hiding in. Even if it was how usefull is that power after the purge?

As far as the saber issue people want to see it. So some spy report is about as reliable as grandma's bladder. Whether he does or doesn't is meaningless to the point anyway (I think?) If he doesn't hay he's a politician. If he does well so do the younglings so whoopidy-doo.

I'm not shure the force is nessesary to mentaly dominate a bastard slave from a third world planet, that feels alone, out of place, watched his mother die in grotesce fascion, and feels betrayed by his mentor. There are so many emotianal cracks in Ani for someone as smart as Palp brainwashing and dominating him should be easy.

So my questions remain. Why does he need the force to accomplish what we know he acomplishes? What evidence is there to support he is such an ultimate power in the force?

 

I still think the answer is clear. If Palpatine was not the strongest Force-user in the galaxy, then Vader would just kill him and take his place. We can clearly see in the original trilogy that Vader FEARS Palpatine. As for the force lightning he used in RoTJ, it is an ability that only the most powerful Sith can use (he and Count Dooku where the only ones that possessed this extreme ability). Finally, I'd like to remind that in ESB Vader asked Luke to join him and help him overthrow Palpatine. If Palpatine was just a clever politician then Vader wouldn't need the help of a Jedi to defeat him. And it is clear in the original trilogy that Vader doesn't hesitate to kill any political or military person that stands in his way. I think it's clear that Vader is completely surrendered to Palpatine because of the extreme power that he wields.

 

To those of you saying that DS should not have sent in DS, well DM managed to kill Qui Jonn, whose dying wish was for a Jedi Knight 3 seconds removed from being a padawan, to be the teacher to the most force sensitive being around. A being that he was able to eventually corrupt.

Now I am not saying Anakin would not have made the same choices, but it sure did help.

 

I don't realy see DV being afraid of him. I think he just doesn't want to be Emp. In AOTC he says he wouldn't want to be. I think in ESB he wants Luke to be Emp. My impretion is DV isn't 2nd in charge but rather he is completely out of the chain of command all together. Being high up in the burocracy of a galactic empire must be laden with tedious paper work, functions, meetings, exc. DV seems to have little resposibility. As the Emp's "friend" he gets to go where he wants, do what he wants, when he wants, and he getts all the toys to do it with, becouse Palp trusts him to further his cause. "Hey Palpie, I'm gonna take the most powerfull ship in the fleet and a but load of star destroyers to go find my kid." Pretty sweet gig if you ask me. It looks to me like DV could have tossed Palp into the coveiniently placed pit of eternal peril at any time, he just lacked motivation to kill the one person who trusted him.

Besides intelectualy and emotionaly dominating someone doesn't nesasarily translat to physical power. We don't know that lighting is a big power, we see 2 out of 4 Dark lords use it to little effect. OB1 didn't seem to have a hard time dealing with it. DV rarely kills anyone right in front of him. Maybe he doesn't try it with luke becouse he remembers how easily OB blocked it. Maybe he just realy likes choking people, I know I would. I get the feeling DM realy likes his saber.

 

This is the guy who manages to shock Darth Vader skeleton into glow in the dark doll.

This is the guy who manages to manipulate and polarise the entire Senate, creating the Seperatists.

This is the guy who manages to play both ends of the middle in TPM, by playing off the Federation wants against the Republic, willing to scarifice either both to gain his needs. Despite political setbacks by the Jedi, he still achieved his goals.

He was able to create a secret army, that no one knew about, and timed the discovery of this army by the Jedi just in time for them to use it against the Seperatists, an enemy he created. It is physically impossible for Yoda to have mobilised the Clone army unless it was already prepared for a deployment, which incidently we saw happening during Obi-wan tour of the Clone Army.

 

No doubt about it he is THE master behind the sceenes strategist. I think alot of the impretion of his power comes more from the air of mystery. Also have you seen Fairly Odd Parent AbraCatrastraphy. "On the bad side you get to wair black, and look at this cape. Chicks dig the cape."

 

You know, I think staying in complete control of a tyrranical government makes him pretty powerful. If he wasn't, Vader probably would have taken him out years earlier.

That being said, the fact that he plans his strategies as win/win situations speaks for itself. No matter what happens, he gets something big that he wants.

 

Absolutely, although I still maintain DV doesn't want the empire (see AOTC). His political strategies and situational manipulation are unparelleled.

But could he say beat yoda or mace in a lightsaber battle. I hope not. I think his "powers" being limited to certain areas or overall weak makes him a more interesting charecter. or more specificly makes everyone else more interesting. If he is rediculasly powerful than of course he turns Ani and Dooku, of course he takes over, what chance did anyone have of resisting him. If he is limited in his abilities than Yoda, Mace, Bail, Mon, Ani, Dooku, OB1, jinn, exc. had a chance of thwarting him. It was their weakness that Emp exploited to gain power. Conversly than it was Luke, Leigha, Han, Chewie, Lando, exc. strengths and ability to overcome their own weaknesses that alowed them to bring his power to an end. If he is realy all that then it was through his own failing, not their strength.

Does that make sence to anyone?

 

he must be fairly powerful, he kept maul, tyranus, and vader under his thumb throughout their apprenticeships and those 3 are very powerful

 

This realy didn't take off the way I'd hoped. Why would he need strong powers to do what he did? I realy want to discuss this with someone. yes he took over, yes he had powerful aprentases, but WHY does that mean HE is all powerful. Mo one responds to my point just the same boring statements. Convince me people.

 

DV seems to have little resposibility. As the Emp's "friend" he gets to go where he wants, do what he wants, when he wants, and he getts all the toys to do it with

Oo, no I disagree with you here. Vader is in charge of the entire fleet in ESB...that's got to be a huge responsibility. Just because we don't see the endless paperwork and drudgery involved doesn't mean it's not there. That would be a bore for 99.9% of the audience (that 00.1% being me who'd be interested ) and we really don't need to see it. He travels around only at the bidding of the Emperor. "Your kid's on the loose, turn him or kill him." That's the order, Vader obeys it. That's why he runs around with all the cool ships chasing rebels; because that's where Luke is.

although I still maintain DV doesn't want the empire (see AOTC)

In the PT? No. But by the time ESB rolls around, I get the feeling that he's fed up with the way things are, especially since he tells Luke "we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." At that point, I believe he feels he can do a better job than Palps has done in keeping the GFFA in one piece. I've often wondered what it would have been like if he killed the Emperor and took the throne in RotJ.

situational manipulation are unparelleled.
What do you mean by this? "situational manipulation"?

Why would he need strong powers to do what he did?
IMHO, he doesn't.

WHY does that mean HE is all powerful

IMHO, he isn't. Well, excluding EPIII, of course. We may find out in 2005 that he's more powerful than Yoda and Anakin put together, but I have my doubts. He's very intelligent, a manipulator and a planner. He's patient...he's waited years for his plans to come about. He's nudged people and situations ever-so-carefully in the way he wants them to go, all to his benefit.

I posted around here somewhere a while ago just what I thought of the Emperor. I said he's not that powerful because he has people do the dirty work for him (Dooku/Maul/Vader). Why would he need Anakin who's so powerful in the Force if Palps was even stronger? My belief is that Palps is strong in only a few areas of the Force. Foreseeing, lightning, maybe some form of persuasion or clouding of people's vision. A kind of control maybe. And even though EU (and I think RotJ novel) say that Palps was holding the Empire together with some kind of power, why was there ever a rebellion then? They'd all be controlled, wouldn't they? I don't think Palps could ever go around and do the things Vader or Maul did, it's not his strong point.

Convince me people
Neither I nor anybody else can convince you of anything. Either you gain insight from all the posts in this and other threads, or you go on wondering wassup with old man Palps supposed powers.

 

Let's not forget his easy and casual use of telekinesis to remove Luke's binders.

Yoda warns of Palpatine's power.

I remember a similar argument being made about Q from Star Trek, that he was simply a charlatan who used high technology to fool Picard and gang and that he was not an omnipotent being.

I think the point of the argument was how to read and assume correctly the interpretation of what we see and don't see, but some anti-ST folks took it to heart.

Of course Palpatine is not all powerfull, but powerfull enough to rule a galactic empire with a fallen Jedi in check to some degree.

Palp's film demonstrated powers:
Remote sensing
Precognition
Telekinesis
Lightning

I liked Dark Empire, Lucas apparently did too, if you want you could add these:
Out of body transfer
Force Storms

To rule an Empire you need certain skills:
Knowledge of Law
Basic technology knowledge
Oration
Leadership
Intimidation
History
Military knowledge
^Just touching the tip of the ice-burg there.

 

You don't become the most powerful man in the galaxy by being a weakling.

 

crispy

DV seems to have little resposibility. As the Emp's "friend" he gets to go where he wants, do what he wants, when he wants, and he getts all the toys to do it with

In Empire he does have command of a whole grip of ships, but nothing is ever said to conotate him as haveing formal rank. He is always referd to as "Lord", clearly not a military rank, or political position. All of His apprentases ar called "Lord", Lord Maul, and Lord Tyranis. Shure everyone in the empire knows to do what DV says or he will make that "one phone call" and that will be that. I have a hard time imagining Vader getting his PTS report faxed in triplicate.
On the get your kid thing, watch Empire again, Vader is already looking for Skywalker befor He ever tells him to. "Thats it. The rebels are there, and I'm shure Skywalker is with them." Then later in the film "We have a new enemy Luke Skywalker" Wow thanks for the news flash. DV has spent the first half of the film trying to catch him, it shure is a good thing He let Vader know about this Luke guy. Also He never orders Vader, he never even makes as suggestion. "He has grown strong" "He could destroy us" "Can it be done?" Not exactily cracking the whip, is He.

although I still maintain DV doesn't want the empire

With Luke its all we's and us's, like when DV talks to Him. At anytime DV could have gotten more titals, he could have been a Grand Admiral, or Grand Moff, or Supreme Chanselor, exc... But he is happy with just plain old Lord of the Sith. The fist of the figure head so to speak. I think his intention is for Luke to be the figure head. In ANH it says the Emp hasn't been paying much attention, but then in TESB he is active and DV would prefer it be Luke. Once again all the power, none of the responsibility.

situational manipulation : Basicly no matter what happens He finds a way to very quikly turn it to his advantage.

WHY does that mean HE is all powerful

I think we basicly agree here, although I don't see any real evidence of forsight. My thoughts on this came about from all the crazy nonsense people have been talking about, as movie speculation or even some of the EU stuff.

Convince me people
Don't be so sanctamonious with we. The pourpose behind a well thought out debate is to present the most compelling "argument" (for lack of a better word) and bring people to your way of thinking. And thats in essence what I am looking for something with insight, something compeling. Most of what I get is Vader was scared, and He gained pollitical power, and in Ep3 He will reveal that He's realy Sifo-Deas, and that Ani is his clone, and then kill yoda and mace with His lightsaber claws, and then blow up the jedi temple with His magic crystal, oh and don't forget the part where He seduses Padme and is Luke's real father. Ya hear me?

VadersLaMent

Now I will be fair I forgot about that. However reolisticly how big a show of power is that. If He had to introcatly pick the lock with the force, thats cool. If there is a secret "force" switch well than not so much.

I can't comment on ST, but I have seen a few episodes with Q and would say he more than demonstrates his power. Ther is a slight implication that I might be anti-SW in that comment. Its becouse I love it I want people to look at things a different way. A little less sci-fi - a little more fantasy, a little less fantasy - a little more mythology, a little less mythology - a little more reality. How the charecters and situations are symbolic of our world.

I don't think he had to keep Vader in check. He get mildly anoide at one point with Vader, but other wise its all "we", "us", your so powerful, "friend", exc. There is only one time we see him tell DV to do anything, and when DV disobays him, he sounds slightly pissed for all of one sentance. Vader isn't cowering, he doesn't appoligize, he does what he wants to do and knows that his friend will be cool about it. Little Ani becomes a force of evil, not a slave.

Palp's film demonstrated powers:
Remote sensi

 

I's sure a lot of questions will be answered in Ep3. And it's possible Palpatine made 'friends' through his force powers (who knows, he may have even eliminated rivals when he was an up-and-coming Senator).

 

Isn't it possible to make friends without the force though?

 

Obviously, those things can be done without the force, but having those powers help in tough negotiations.

 

I think the once and future Emperor's powers mainly come from his ability to manipulate key events in the lives of those of the Republic and beyond. Had he made a more public attempt to take control of the Senate then he would have been taken to task by the jedi masters I feel. So he only becomes so strong because he does not make his intentions until it is too late. Therein lies his power.

 

Now thats something I can agree with, both of you. Jainalover I realy agree with that. His "power" isn't what most people, especialy on the boards, think of as power.

 

Thank you. I have always felt that the Emperor does not possess any real powers and that things like force lightning are only secondary to his abilities to be a master maipulator. Look in Return of the Jedi for how he orchestrates the rebel fleet into attacking the Death Star with him on it. His previous success rate with successful maipulation made him completely arrogant by that point in time.