How powerful should Anakin's children really be?

I've always thought that Luke was more powerful than he should have been. During his duel with Vader at the end of RotJ he was kicking Vader's butt, easily. Now even if it was because he was so angry, Vader should still have been more powerful. He was supposedly born 'of the Force'. Essentially, the Force was Anakin's father. Simple genetics tell us that humans are born with half of their mothers genes and half of their fathers. Luke and Leia have both a mother and a father. Padme wasn't Force-sensitive at all, and Anakin was the most powerful Jedi ever, so wouldn't combining all of Anakin's power with none from Padme make Luke and Leia half as powerful as their father?

My fic features Anakin's children, both Luke Leia with OC's, and I don't want their power to be overstated, or understated. What does everyone think?


I did find this thread: Do we overstate Anakin/Vader's power in fan fic?~ I started a new thread because this one is about Anakin, not his children. But, lock if you need to.

 

The only thing I've read comparing their powers refers to their midichlorian count. Before Anakin fell into the lava his count was north of 20,000. After he fell (in more ways than one) I think I read that his count was about 13,000. I would have to look that up. So that would mean he actually lost some of his power.

I think Luke's was somewhere in that area and Leia's was 10,000. Someone who is sure of those numbers may give you a better answer, but I think they are fairly close.

I agree that Luke would not have been as powerful as Anakin. But Vader was severely wounded and basically living on portable life support, which would make him physically weaker than Luke.

I'm not sure how powerful Luke and Leia would be in comparison to their father, but it's a great topic to discuss!

 

That's an arguable point. Some genetics is a combination of genes and some is an all-or-none phenomenon. For instance, there are genes that control height or weight, which frequently combine maternal and paternal genetics. However, other genes, such as those that control eye or hair color are single genes, and in those cases, autosomal dominant or recessive makes a difference.

In other words, someone who has blue eyes has two 'b' genes. If they married someone who has brown eyes and has two 'B' genes, their children would be Bb, but their eye color would not be a combination of brown and blue, it would be brown. It would just take the characteristics of the dominant gene. So, you could argue that midichlorians are autosomal dominant. Either you have 'em or you don't. And if you have them, you have them at full strength.

 

I tend to ignore the whole midichlorians thing, because I think it's really stupid.

I don't think the 50/50 genetics theory works here. Force-sensitive children can be born to non-Force-sensitive parents. It just happens. However: I don't know if children born to Force-sensitive parents are automatically Force-sensitive. But I would say they are, and that they inherit that wealth of power.

Plus, as it was said before, Vader was physically much weaker than Luke, and even strength in the Force can't help you marathon fight.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot! JadeSolo's response reminded me there are such things as genetic mutations.

Padme could have had a gene mutation that would allow her to pass on Force sensitivity to her children even though she didn't have it herself. Like Queen Victoria. She had the gene for sickle cell anemia, but didn't have the disease. However, because she had a bunch of kids who inherited this gene, she ended up spreading the disease to the monarchies all over Europe.

 

~~VaderLVR64~~

I didn't know that Anakin had lost midichlorians after he fell into the lava. Where did you read that?

 

You need to realize that in ROTJ, Luke's a buff young stud and Vader is a wheezing old fart who is missing body parts and basically walking around in an iron lung.


Plus, Vader isn't really out to kill Luke. He's doing what he can to lure his son to the dark side. He'll push Luke, hurt him if he has to, but doesn't want to kill Luke.

Whether he wants to turn Luke to make good on his offer from ESB or for Luke to sever the emperor is up for debate. However, given what we know from the prequels so far about Anakin's personality, I believe he seriously wanted to team up with Luke to kill Palpy.

Unfortunately for Vader, he pushed the wrong button when he threatened Leia and was caught off guard when Luke want ballistic on him. The weakness of his failing body, which wasn't an issue in ANH when fighting an even older Kenobi or in ESB while toying with a neophyte swordsman, became too much to overcome and he was bested.


As far as midichlorians go, I've always been under the impression that 20,000 referred to the concentration of midichlorians, not total number.

 

TFN Midichlorian Study

I think the way Lucas describes it (unlike the article above) is that its like mitochondria in real-life. Its not the amount of midichlorians you have in your body, but in each cell (like mitochondria) - meaning that even if Vader lost limbs or part of his body, the "cell count" would still be "over 20,000" per cell. I had to read up for this for fic one time...

EDIT: Plus, Vader isn't really out to kill Luke. He's doing what he can to lure his son to the dark side. He'll push Luke, hurt him if he has to, but doesn't want to kill Luke.

Yeah, what he said.. I don't think Vader was even trying to kill him in ROTJ, when Luke went ballastic, Vader was caught by surprise. Vader ended up taking more lightning than Luke, and it was about to kill Luke.

 

Darth_Lex and I once had a conversation about this, and he had an interesting theory. He suggests that Force sensitivity isn't chromosomally genetic at all. Reasons: If it were a dominant gene, wouldn't there likely be more Force-sensitives than there are? If it were a recessive gene, then how would non-Force-sensitive parents (especially if both parents aren't sensitive) have Force-sensitive children? And since Force-sensitivity occurs in so many species, it seems unlikely to be a mutation.

His conclusion was that Force-sensitivity depends more on one's destiny than anything else - not that non-Force-sensitives have any less important a destiny than Jedi, only that they have a different role to play.

Obviously there are pros and cons to any theory, but I personally think Lex's ideas make a lot of sense. And if you go by that theory, the level of sensitivity that Anakin's children possessed would depend more on what Jedi-oriented things they had to accomplish to fulfill their destinies.

 

Continuing with what Gabri said. I don't believe that being Force-sensitive is something that you can inherit through genetics. If we go with the idea that the Force ties all living creatures together, then I believe that the Force decides who will be Force-sensitive.

If it was determined by genetics, then if it was a dominent gene, we'd soon have all Force-sensitive populations. Besides, how would we have members of every species (or at least most) who are Force-sensitive? How could that gene have made the inter-species leap? I could understand a handful of species getting a mutated genes, but so many? It doesn't really make sense.

This is a really good topic for discussion

~LtJS

 

I agree with what's been said about Force-sensitivity not being genetic (with a few exceptions, of course, like the Korunnai) and Anakin's debilitation by the time of the OT.

I also think, though, that Luke's power has been overstated, at least in the EU. I do think that Anakin should have been THE most powerful Jedi ever, which is what we're being told by the Ep III staff anyway. Luke has been portrayed in the EU as godlike at times, and some of his performance in the NJO series just seems a bit over-the-top. Luke was, IMO, the deus ex machina of that line of books. I think Tim Zahn's portrayal of him was better--definitely capable, but not invincibile, even by the Hand of Thrawn duology, 19 years ABY. And he did start "training" 17 or so years after every other Jedi. People learn fastest when they're young. I think maybe Luke could be on par with Mace Windu by the time of TUF, but in the end, it was Vader who saved the day in ROTJ. A young, anger-fueled Luke battered a caught-off-guard cripple, his range of movement and agility restricted by his armor and his Force-touch inhibited by physical debilitation and--I assume--constant agony. But said cripple still took a big jolt of Force-lightning and tossed Palps down the shaft.

I've always wondered about Leia, though. Sometimes we see her pull off fairly impressive Jedi tricks, and other times her lack of training is what's stressed. I don't really know what to think of her.

Sorry if that was too long, and if it didn't really say anything...

 

If you go with the theory that Force-sensitivity not being genetic at all, and that it's controlled by destiny, I think Leia shoud be early as powerful as Luke. I mean, she helped save the galaxy and defeat the Empire too.

 

True, but Leia's destiny is different from Luke's. She's never been that big of a fighter. Sure she has a fight scene now and again, but never like Luke. Her Force sensitivity has always been used in different ways, where she didn't seem to need as much raw Force power.


Also, replying to something that was further up in the thread, isn't Padme supposed to have some underlying Force sensitivity? I thought someone once told me that was a part of AOTC that had been cut out?

 

Okay, so midi-chlorians are the mitochondria of the Star Wars universe. Using that theory, I can understand how Luke, the young vs. old and healthy vs. crippled ideas notwithstanding, could have overpowered Vader. Anakin's midi-chlorian count was over 20,000 midi-chlorians per cell in his body.

Now, Obi-Wan tells us in RotJ that Anakin is "more machine now than man" suggesting that the arm he lost in AOTC was only the first limb he lost, not the only limb he lost. Thus, by the time the duel at the end of RotJ rolled around, Anakin had way fewer cells in his body than Luke, which made Luke much more powerful. I guess I can accept that theory to explain how Luke bested Vader.

I guess I just don't like the idea that a person's Force-sensitivity is a completely arbitrary thing. Plus, I keep flashing back to this:

"The Force runs strong in your family."~Yoda, RotJ

"The Force is strong in my family. My father has, I have it, my sister has it."~Luke, RotJ

To me, Yoda was suggesting that Luke had the potential to be a strong Jedi because Anakin had been a strong Jedi and was a powerful Sith. Luke was suggesting the same thning when he told Leia of their sibling relationship and of their paternity.

Here's another question. If the number of midi-chlorians in each cell determines Force-strength, what determines who has what Force-abilities? Tell me if I'm mistaken, but Valin Horn doesn't possess TK. Neither does his father Corran. That suggests that at least Force-abilities, or lack thereof, are hereditary, right?

 

Also, replying to something that was further up in the thread, isn't Padme supposed to have some underlying Force sensitivity? I thought someone once told me that was a part of AOTC that had been cut out?

I remember reading one of the NJO books about how there are people who aren't Force-sensitive but have a bright presence in the Force. I took this to mean that they have higher midi-chlorian (sp?) counts than less "bright" people.

Here's another question. If the number of midi-chlorians in each cell determines Force-strength, what determines who has what Force-abilities? Tell me if I'm mistaken, but Valin Horn doesn't possess TK. Neither does his father Corran. That suggests that at least Force-abilities, or lack thereof, are hereditary, right?

Perhaps genetics does determine certain strengths. That's a really good point, JediMaster_Jen.

~LtJS

 

I left out something I intended to put in my earlier post.

Remember in ESB when Luke is attempting to raise his X-wing from the swamp. There's a look of what can only be awe on Yoda's face when the ship raises a bit before sinking again.

It's very telling about Luke's level of power that he's able to accomplish such a feat after minimal training.

As far as training from birth versus training from adulthood, I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. I'd wager much of a young Jedi's training is not just to understand and use the Force, but to develop a stable emotional and psychological mindset. Because let's face it, if you're gonna teach someone to tap into a huge source of power, it'd be a good idea to weed out the undesirables first.

With Luke, there was no choice. It was either train this guy or pack up and quit. But while Luke's training was undoubtedly accelerated, there wasn't a need nor the time to inculcate him in all the Jedi dogma. Just fast forward to the important stuff about how to stay alive and kill the bad guys.

 

That's a good point Herman. Yoda did definitely look impressed that Luke was able to lift the X-Wing from the swamp at all.

 

I can say this about Corran: in I, Jedi, he finds out that his grandfather Nejaa Halcyon didn't have TK. In Dark Tide I, there's a line about how the Horn/Halcyon line is notorious for its lack of TK. Maybe you could compare something like that to genetic mutation? That is, all Force-users are basically the same in that they have the power to touch and manipulate and feel the Force. And then certain skills - or lack thereof - get passed down the family line.

But I don't know how to explain the specifics.

 

JadeSolo~

I don't think it's a genetic mutation. It's just a case of traits developing along the path of least resistance-gender lines. For instance, if your grandmother was left handed, and your mother was left handed, it's likely that you'll be left handed as well. Left-handedness is the dominant gene, therefore you have a predisposition to being left handed. The Horn/Halycon line has the same thing as far as TK goes.


Gabri_Jade~

Darth_Lex had a good idea, except for the fact that we inherit from two people, that's 23 pairs of genes. More Force-sensitives would be born if both parents carried the dominant gene. Force-sensitives could be born to non-Force using parents if both parents carry a recessive gene for the Force.

Supposing Padme had a recessive gene for the Force, making her a carrier, she could have passed it on to her children where it became dominant because of Anakin's half of their genetic makeup. Anakin's Force gene is dominant. That combined with Padme's recessive one makes Luke and Leia Force-capable.

It's been a long time since I took high school biology and I don't remember a lot about dominant, recessive and double recessive genes, but I think this is right.

 

There wouldn't be a dominant gene for the Force and a recessive one. It would be one or the other. In other words, for instance, if the gene for Force sensitivity was recessive, then it would make sense that Padme could have one gene for the Force and one that wasn't. Anakin would have two genes for the Force, in which case the strain would be evident. Then, with their children, each would have a 50% chance of getting both genes and being Force sensitive, but it's highly likely that both would be born Force-sensitive. But to make this theory right, Han would need to have a recessive gene for the Force as well, too, otherwise, Jaina, Jacen and Anakin wouldn't all be Jedi.

And...someone stated earlier that if the Force gene was dominant it would take over in the galaxy, but it's not true. Blood type O is the most common in the world, but the gene is recessive.

Oh, and mitochondria are not like midichlorians. Mitochondria are passed down the maternal line only. Sperm do not carry them.

All right, getting off geeky soapbox

And Gabri, I like the idea you and Lex had Destiny makes it more fun and mystical than straight genetics.

 

I think it might not be as simple as single-gene heredity. Could there be a gene or set of genes for blunt Force-strength, such as that shown through midi-chlorian count, and another gene or set of genes for how that Force-strength manifests itself (possibly one for each of several major skill areas)? That way, the Horn thing could possibly be explained as having a dominant gene that blocks using the Force for TK without affecting the other areas of Force-use.

This could also explain why the paddles system of Jedi detection shown in the Jedi Academy trilogy was used by the Empire rather than a simple quick and easy blood test like that used by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in TPM. The paddles check to see if someone is influencing the Force around them unconsciously (if memory serves), in which case under a dual genetic system only those with midi-chlorians who could use them would show up. The midi-chlorian test shows who has the potential to use the Force, not those who can with any real power.

 

All this gene talk is making my head spin. LOL.

Suffice it to say, Luke and Leia are Force-sensitive. I suppose it doesn't really matter how they got that way. LOL.

Carry on the discussion without me folks, I'm on my way out of town. Be back on Monday.

 

I was looking at the commentaries (decided to read the subtitle version rather than listen to the audio version) on the ESB DVD and during the fight scene in the carbon freezing chamber George Lucas specifically stated that Darth Vader has less power in the force than Anakin had due to the wounds he has taken.

Therefore Jen was right to say Thus, by the time the duel at the end of RotJ rolled around, Anakin had way fewer cells in his body than Luke, which made Luke much more powerful. and probably right to say I guess I can accept that theory to explain how Luke bested Vader.