Lit How should Disney handle the Old Republic Era?

Wow. You really don't get what the SG is doing at all. Their intent is to build a much more rich, coherent, consistent, and relevant story-driven framework that is explored and developed in stories, and that naturally produces what would be considered 'lore'. Once an Era or story has been established, sometimes there are great opportunities to then populate it with older established info. Look at the Rogue One Visual Guide and Propaganda books. These are massive Lore Books, with both new and classic material! But the story frameworks came first, and then the cracks are able to be filled and populated.

 

I would imagine it's both, to a degree.

First, it's worth pointing out that -- if we can take Korin (from LANDO) at his word -- the Sith weren't especially numerous. They're stated to have been "much rarer" than Jedi, who are themselves exceedingly rare on the galactic stage. So, even in the pre-Bane days, we're probably not talking about a Sith Order that's the mirror image of the Jedi in terms of numbers. (Ideally we won't be talking about a "Sith Order" at all, but rather many distinct Sith cults, but that's just my preference)

Second, it's unlikely that Bane spent his entire life working in secret, as he did in the EU. The Jedi know who he is, and they know his rules.

So my guess would be that, after triumphing over the competing Sith Lords and their ideologies, Bane and his apprentice (or successive apprentices) plague the galaxy for however long until they're defeated by the Jedi roughly a thousand years before TPM. (I'd rather Bane himself were placed further back, this time around, but it does seem that he's been locked into a c 1000 BBY timeframe, again, so whatever)

Thus the Jedi get their "moment to shine" in bringing peace to the galaxy (just because there's not an army of Sith doesn't mean there's not a Sith with an army!), and Bane's successors retreat into the shadows to plot their revenge.

 

I'm done responding to you.

 

Well, Kaan killing his fellow Sith with a thought bomb does technically count as the Sith killing each other. Even in the EU, Kaan and Githany were trying to kill Bane too, but the poison failed.

Admittedly, the whole Darth Bane novel trilogy can't work now because that series ended with Bane dying without the Jedi knowing who he is. Yet Yoda was able to recite Bane's name and job description with just one look at his Force ghost in TCW. Even the EU Kibh Jeen retcon can't explain that.

I'll just pretend that only Jedi vs Sith is still canon (until proven otherwise, and with a new date of circa 1032 BBY per canon Propaganda book), with Bane and Zannah immediately returning to a Coruscant held by Sith troops (not actual Sith, but soldiers) after the comic book. Countless wannabe Sith ask to join Bane and Zannah, but he says it's just the two of them now. The Jedi of course hear about this, and Bane, with new armor, has his image posted all over the holonet.

Bane and Zannah hold Coruscant for about a year till 1031 BBY when the Jedi wipe them out in retaking Coruscant and restoring the Republic. However, Zannah fakes her death, makes off with Bane's body (or arm if things are similar to the Darth Bane novels) to bury him on Moraband, taking Darth Cognus as apprentice and going into hiding.

 

And I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Either learn how conversations work or leave. We've put up with your tantrums long enough.

 

Loving all the different ideas regarding Darth Bane in this thread, I enjoyed the trilogy of novels a lot and would be interested to see where they would take the character if they explored it again. I don't know if they'd go for the whole body hopping thing you suggest though sidv88 as I seem to remember when Dynasty of Evil was released many people thought Bane had possessed Zannah's body, the implication being was every Sith from then on just Bane? and Karpyshyn wrote a piece on his website to clarify that Zannah won, Bane died. On the one hand it is an interesting idea, but it does open up a bit of a Pandora's box unless you tie things up nicely and definitively kill the character off eventually (and explain how the power/method was lost).

 

I never suggested at all a successful body hopping from Bane to Zannah--this wasn't even canon in the EU, as you mentioned in your post. What I imagined was, as the Jedi were raining down on Coruscant, Bane and Zannah get into a fight over what went wrong where Bane is left as ashes except for his arm. Then Zannah realizes the game is up, takes out a girl who looks like her, grabs Bane's arm and flees.

The Jedi liberate Coruscant, see Bane's ashes and the body of the Zannah look alike (they could even name her Nalia Adollu as a nod to the EU), and say ok the Sith are gone.

 

Ahh sorry, I misread/misunderstood the end of your post, yeah that makes sense.

 

I don't have the book with me but I'm pretty sure that the bit in the TPM novelization that introduced Bane and supposedly came from Lucas also talked about how the Sith killed themselves through infighting (something which Lucas seems to have pretty well established mentally about how large-scale dark side organizations would inevitably collapse against each other).

The Bane novel taking the Jedi vs. Sith line of Bane's about "the poison was on your lips" and making it literal was pretty dumb, though. From a great metaphor and burn on Githany, to revealing that Bane is kind of a dullard to have to actually spell out "Hey, you know when I got sick right after you kissed me? I finally figured it out!"

 

The TPM novel was sort of contradictory. It says that the Sith wiped themselves out after several weeks in 2,000 BBY, and that Darth Bane survived. But it then says that the Jedi believed the Sith were destroyed in 1,000 BBY. (Sidious muses it's been 1,000 years since the Jedi thought they defeated the Sith, or something like that). Admittedly this could mean there was a 1,000 years of Rule of Two between 2000 BBY and 1000 BBY, and then the Jedi thought they wiped out 2 Sith in 1000 BBY. But the lack of any mention of how the Jedi supposedly thought the Sith were destroyed in 1000 BBY didn't make this clear--I remember being confused about this when I first read the novel even back in 1999.

As it was, the EU practically ignored the bit about the 2,000 BBY Sith being wiped out in weeks and just had an army of Sith running around between 2,000 BBY and 1,000 BBY.

 

I think that almost certainly is what it meant, and the EU flubbed it. I didn't pick it up on it during my first read of the TPM novel, but I remember DigitialMessiah (I think?) posted at length about it at one point, and it's one of the reasons I was surprised when when I recently* learnt that Bane had been placed at 1000 BBY again. I was almost certain that that a thousand years of RoT Sith is what the NU was going to run with.

Of course, maybe Bane just lived for a thousand years.

. . .

That could be pretty cool, actually. A thousand years of intermittent Sith conflicts ignited whenever Bane unleashed an apprentice on the galaxy. Finally ended by a great Jedi Hero (probably Tar) putting Bane in the ground.

I'd like for it to be Yoda, but alas. Born too late.


* I've been charging through most the NU novels and TPBs over the last couple of weeks playing catch-up.

 

You know one of the best things I realized about a Old Republic movie or something set in 1000 BBY is that when it comes to Sith characters you can sorta have your cake and eat it too. Have a manipulative Sith Emperor figure and then have a bunch of Sith Warrior figures as well. Sorta all around Sith artictypes we got going here. And add in a few Officer figures for good measure.

 

Where did you learn this?

 

I don't think the new canon is necessarily going to follow these novelizations like The Phantom Menace, even if they mirror Lucas' original intentions. Already, the Sith were established as existing in 5,000 BBY in the new canon in the Tarkin novel, in contradiction of the TPM novel's 2,000 BBY establishment date. So even if Bane was placed 2,000 BBY, that's still 3,000 years of Sith armies potentially running around. What difference does another 1,000 years make? So might as well just place him 1,000 BBY like in the EU.

Also, I highly doubt Disney, for marketing reasons, would want a canon where armies of Sith Lords only were around for a few weeks. There are already 2 trilogies and a 3rd that basically seem to have Rule of Two darksider dynamics, Disney may want to have movies, tv series, comics, games etc with armies of Sith like in the Old Republic game.

 

From the Wook article, tbh. Sources it to the Star Wars Propaganda book. Haven't actually confirmed it for myself, yet. I actually looked into it after that Sith tangent we had in the Episode VIII thread, prior to embarking on my NU catch-up.

The difference is that it means we understand why Yoda was certain of the rule of two and doesn't even consider the possibility of there being another kind of Sith.

It's not like he says, "I wonder if Bane's line have survived, or we're dealing with another kind of Sith, again?"

Its just, "Yeah, he's a Sith. That means RoT."

Though I suppose we could chalk it up to Force intuition. He searched his feelings and knew it to be true, yada yada.

Not suggesting that. As you say, we already know the Sith are older than 2,000 years in the NU.

All I was expecting was confirmation that the RoT began in 2,000 BBY following a period of infighting.

 

I'm betting that Lucas simply told Terry Brooks "thousands of years" and Brooks interpreted that as 2000 years. In Lucas's own words, "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do."

 

I'm wondering how much Lucas' idea of who the Sith were changed over the years.

I can't find a link for it now, but I'm positive that I read somewhere about a letter sent to Dark Horse Comics regarding Dark Horse's Tales of the Jedi comics. Basically, someone said "Darth Vader is more than just the dominator of poor little aliens," or something along those lines, in regards to the revelation that dark Jedi came and dominated the Red Sith species. Apparently Kevin J. Anderson's (the comics author) response was that this origin came from George Lucas himself. If someone could find and post a link or scan of this, that would be great.

 

I wonder if Lucas meant for Darth Bane to be one of the Jedi who followed the unnamed founder of the Sith to the dark side.

 

If Disney ever gives us the last generation of many Sith, It would be best if it wasn't in the form of a Sith Empire.

Sith Empire(s) has their place in the future of the new continuity of the ancient past. After all Palpatine said "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy". But with a very long history and Bane's pre-RoT generation falling apart, by portraying them as weaker without a large army/empire, it would fit better with the theme of the Sith weakening.

Instead of an Empire as a threat to the Republic/Jedi, it should be a type of Confederacy. One that lacks a droid army, and has a different motives in fighting the Republic then the CIS did. And it shouldn't have as big of a military as the CIS. Although the Republic also shouldn't have a clone level military.

With a Confederacy the Sith can became just a part of it, working with other factions/cultures with a shared hatred towards the Republic. Them needing an alliance of other Republic hating factions to further their revenge against the Jedi, does go to show their weakness compared to their ancestors.

A Confederacy also brings a diverse enemy to the table. A big difference from the Galactic Empire and First Order, with various types of troops, ships (and appearances). This type of baddie also allows introduction of various planets/cultures to the screen, further showing us more of the GFFA.

Of course the nature of the Sith could influence this Confederacy in being defeated.

While I don't want to see an active Sith Empire in a new star wars trilogy about Bane's generation, ruins of their former glory should appear. Such as various buildings and maybe even a starship. Giving us a taste of what even older Sith had.

 

Ok. I just found out that the Sith go to 5000 BBY thanks to the Tarkin Novel.

 

I thought TARKIN placed the Sith temple (or was it a shrine?) at six thousand years old?

I don't remember the page number.

 

We don't know how old it was - but we know that nobody had set foot in it for close to 5000 years:

"Alert me when the ship makes planetfall on Murkhana," Sidious said.
The droid bowed its head. "I will, Your Majesty."
The two of them were in Sidious's lair, a small rock-walled enclosure beneath the deepest of the Palace's several sub levels that had once been an ancient Sith shrine. That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders. Even the most powerful of Dark Side Adepts believed that shrines of the sort existed only on Sith worlds remote from Coruscant, and even the most powerful of the Jedi believed that the power inherent in the shrine had been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order much as the Sith Masters had secretly infiltrated the corridors of political power and toppled the Republic.
Save for Sidious, no sentient being in close to five thousand years had set foot in the shrine. The room's excavation and and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D.​

 

Yeah, I was just misremembering the line as "no sentient being in close to six thousand years".

 

Well, the hundred year darkness are canon. From what i can make of it, the Sith and Jedi had fought eachother on a number of occasions after that, it seems to imply that at one time the Sith did capture Coruscant militarily long before their final confrontation a 1000 years before TPM (how else did they build the shrine there, i doubt it would've happened covertly), and the Sith themselves establishing multiple Empires over time. Windu seemed to refer to their oppression as past rule as well. But that's just an impression i'm getting from it.

The old canon made enough sense for Disney to just along with it, for the most part. But i'm not seeing the original red-skinned Sith/Massassi species returning. Though they have been confirmed to have been warriors enslaved and forced by the ancient Sith to build temples on Yavin 4, 5000 years before BBY. Which seems to coincide with the timeframe in which the shrine on Coruscant was constructed as well...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massassi

So, aside from the hundred year darkness... They fought two major wars? One which the Sith won, the other by the Jedi? Kinda tricky to piece it together. I'm wondering what others think with the limited canon we have right now.

 

The TPM novelization describes the founder of the Sith as "a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers." I feel like it's saying that he was among those who discovered The Force and the only one who wanted to use it for evil.