ST How should Maz have been portrayed ?

Maz is very clearly TFA's version of Yoda. They even state so in the art of book. What's the point of trying to deny it when those in production admit that this was the intent I.e a force type sage/imparter of force wisdom and philosophy? That IS the 'function' of the character, not bar tendering.

 

Exactly. The character would have carried so much more integrity for me if it was just Lupita with makeup. And the possibilities with makeup are huge. They could have done so much with her.

missed opportunity for sure

 

I loved Maz she's like the wise old sage, who gives the advice people need to hear. She's like a cross between a grandmother and Yoda, but with a wink and a smile.

I hope we get more of her. I thought Lupita nailed it.

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I should also say, just for balance, that I appreciate them (Abrams et al) going with the principle of Maz being alien enough that it can't simply be an actor in costume (I like my aliens to look 'alien'). What's dissapointing for me, like Snoke, it that both the design and the characters function just doesnt warrant that approach. Rather than Maz being a fantastic design that needs to be achieved/realised by either puppet or CGI, she just kind of looks like a Star Wars Mr Yunioshi.

 

I would rather have 1000 Maz'es than a blue elephant-thing (Max Rebo) playing keyboard.

 

She should've been stop motion and be voiced by Burl Ives and sing a song about the ongoing PT vs. OT wars titled "Prequel and Old".

 

I actually was immediately turned off of Maz the second we saw her on screen. She looked very fake to me. I didn't understand why there was a cartoon character running around amidst a scene otherwise filled with puppets and actors in makeup.

What gave Star Wars its particular feel was the realism and grittiness to everything. You just can't achieve that by mixing CGI with real people. Star Wars almost needs those puppets and actors in suits or makeup.

I guess the scene they needed to have a CGI character for was when she annoyingly crawled on the table in order to create a cheap sense of suspense when she needlessly adjusted her pointless goggles to look at Finn and say he was running away from something. Gah, at that point, we still really didn't know much about Finn and didn't care about him, so her doing that and the entire scene revealed nothing about Finn that we didn't already know and just made me more confused about Maz. I don't know why she did that. Seemed silly to me and out of place. I imagined Harrison Ford feeling like an idiot while shooting that scene. I can just hear him like, "Darn, stupid puppets everywhere, little yellow cartoon things getting all up in my face. So tired of this kiddy crap."

Yoda screams "wise, old sage," and everything about his performance very clearly projected what his character was.

Maz is a mess.

Maz's design screams, "Yellow E. T. look-a-like with pointless goggles who runs a bar for smugglers and has a grating voice and personality and somehow knows things but won't say why and keeps a lightsaber in an unlocked box in an open room inside of a smuggler's den for no reason."

IF she had been introduced differently, I may have liked her more, but I came away from the movie knowing essentially nothing about her and not really knowing what her character was. That was also like, the most boring part of the movie. Actually, and sadly, Han's entrance to, maybe, the attack on Maz's castle was the slow point of the movie. And there really should not be a slow point in a Star Wars movie. These things aren't complicated.

Maz's planet just seemed pointless to me. Nothing really happened there that could not have happened in some other way. Leia could have given Rey Luke's saber and that would have been more effective. There really wasn't a point in trying to trick us into thinking that Finn would be the Jedi character. Also, Maz would have handed the saber to Han before giving it to Finn.

I just don't know why she was in the movie. I don't hate her and I can get into her given more substance, but that is definitely the most skippable part of the movie.

 

I felt that the CGI work on Maz was unconvincing. I think it was something to do with the lighting effects applied to her digital image, it never felt quite right compared to the rest of the scene. The motion capture and textures looked good to me though.

 

I respect this opinion, as Maz was not the most successful element of TFA for me. But out of curiosity, what was grating about her voice?

 

CGI or not if the story is good that's fine with me...and as years go by CGI will develop more and more so maybe when the time comes for the next episode Maz will look more real.

 

Seeing how Gollum was made 15yrs ago and looked better than Maz, I don't think it's likely that Maz would look much better when the next episode is made next year.


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CGI, motion capture, and performance was great.

 

After reading some of the previous posts on this thread with regard to Maz, I want to get down some of my thoughts on Maz, and why I really like her character in TFA. Might ideally be better off for the Maz thread, but here we go:

Maz, first of all, is neither a rip off of Yoda, or merely fulfilling a Yoda type role in the film. Apart from anything else, her role is actually a bit closer to Obi Wan in ANH, although I won't go into that too much here. She even has an Obi Wan-esque line, which essentially re-establishes the mystical nature of the force in TFA and the ST, ("I am no Jedi, but I know the force, it moves through and surrounds every living thing.") Note the "no Jedi", as it's vital to an understanding of her character.

Maz's identity, really, is tied into her castle and Takodana itself. Maz's castle is basically "the inn at the end of the universe", and feels like a Star Wars version of Neil Gaiman's World's End inn from The Sandman. It's a way station, resting place and safe haven for all manner of strange and exotic creatures and individuals. So whilst on one level there is a Cantina homage, it's really quite different from the "scum and villainy " of the Cantina itself, which is merely a dive bar for the low life's who live in Mos Eisley. The panning shot of the castle interior shows a more convivial atmosphere with eccentric games and creatures, whereas the Cantina has the seedy jazz bar vibe and suspicious, dangerous glances as Luke/Obi Wan step inside. It appears the design team went back to Mcquarrie's original concept art for the Cantina (which ended up very different in ANH), and ran with it in a new direction.

Now Maz is introduced by Han as someone who can get them a "clean ship", and he describes her in terms both ancient and eccentric,( "she's run this watering hole for over a thousand years, Maz is a bit of an acquired taste.") When we meet Maz, she lives up to this description. She has her own unique eccentric sense of humour, ("Where's my boyfriend...I like that wookie"), and her dialogue in this scene gives us a sense of her age and experience ("If you live long enough, you see the same eyes in different people...Through the ages I've seen evil take many forms...").

Her "eyes" thing in particular is great; the goggles a really nice touch. Maz can "see" into your soul, (Windows and all that) which is why her clambering onto the table and flipping down her goggles is so effective in unnerving Finn. No hiding from Maz. This aspect also reminds me of Blade Runner, with that film's preoccupation with sight and perception, ("chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!"). Roy Batty has seen extraordinary things with someone else's eyes. Maz can see extraordinary things THROUGH someone else's eyes (as a window). And she can recognise the same fears, the same hopes and the same dreams in "different people".

Finally, to return to the mythological aspect. Gaiman's World's End suggests that the mythological "patron" of the World's End Inn might be Shiva herself, or some sort of God. Perhaps there is lot more to Maz than "meets the eye" as well (well there has to be). And of course we can already see this with the Arthurian themes that underpin TFA. If Luke's Lightsabre is Excalibur, then Maz Kanata must be the Lady of the Lake. Well guess what? She is literally a "Lady of the Lake" already; her castle overlooks one.

I could say more I think, but this post is long enough as it is. And I DID think her cgi was effective too.

 

I agree about the way station; in fact, that's the only thing that I think was a minsjudgement - maybe Maz's cast;e should have remained a safe haven, and the film written around that

 

You mean misjudgement in blowing it up?

 

More that it could have been utilised more as a classic, mythic way station; the house of elrond, say. I mean, it'd involve wholesale reworking of the film, so I'm not suggesting they should have done it this way, but maybe if Maz's castle had actuaply been a safe zone, and it wasn't until the next stop afterwards that the first order turned up, or something? Again, not a fully formed thought, just I like the idea of it being a real, genuine place of sanctuary

 

Sure, although I suppose the FO destroying this "safe zone/way station" symbolises that no one is safe from the FO. It had stood for a thousand years and survived the empire. Now it lies in ruins. It also speaks to the thuggish, beastly nature of the FO too - the empire probably recognised a lot of value in Maz and her castle (although yes, the FO still have spies there.)

 

I think it was actually her cryptic nature mixed with creepy/awkward aunt at a family gathering. "Where's my boyfriend?" That was a little funny, but eh, I just thought it threw her character around this way and that. I get what they are going for.

This is a long description of why I felt she was awkward. Has to do with the whole film really.

Going off of what Knights of Ben said about the FO destroying every "safe haven"....

For me, the beginning of the movie had an awkward tone to it, similar to the prequels. In the beginning, we witness a merciless slaughter of innocents, complete with Finn's friend leaving bloody finger trails across his helmet, and immediately cut to slap-stick, wakka wakka humor with Poe and Finn. I didn't feel like the movie established its tone until Finn and Rey were fleeing from Jakku.

You can't really go from violent, depressing murder scene to silly, light-hearted fun in the space of a minute unless you're like, a Tarantino movie.

Going from that, if Maz had been established earlier as a central part of the story, her character could have helped to establish the tone not only of the movie, but of the universe at this time. I have no idea how the galaxy is doing or what is going on. Is this the best of times or the worst of times? The Republic exists, right? So, everything should be going pretty great.

Then, suddenly there's a red-headed guy screaming about stuff I don't know about and they fire a canon that blows up three planets that I don't know about. OK... So, is the First Order, like, the biggest deal ever or are they a startup group? I still don't know. Is everyone living in fear of them, or are they just starting to be annoying? I don't know where we are on the timeline.

Did Luke just leave like, a year ago, or has it been fifteen years? I still don't know cause the movie didn't say, so I didn't really know where everyone was at.

They stop for no reason at this yellow person's planet to do.... something? Fix the ship? And, even though it is supposed to be out of the way, it is apparently right next to the Republic planets that got blowed up.

She has Luke's lightsaber. That itself should require that she be a bigger part of the film. You don't have some random cantina owner possess such a thing without explanation. Saying, "Oh, we'll tell you why later. Don't have time now cause there's an action scene happening." Did Han know she had that? Why is there a deleted scene of her giving the saber to Leia? Why would she hand it to Finn?

Her character was driven more by what the plot required than by what maybe would have been more natural for her character. I just think she was rushed and not thought out very well. I am interested in the character, but I don't think she was done well and actually believe that she could have really helped the movie if she had been featured more. She is an excellent source for exposition, which the movie desperately needed, and a potential connection between the old and new characters that was missing from the film.

 

Whilst I disagree about the tone and Maz, (I obviously enjoyed her role in the movie) TFA DID really need a bit more with regards to the state of the Galaxy. You can infer it sure, but you shouldn't have to. It's a frustrating oversight that could have been remedied with only a few additions in terms of scenes/dialogue. It's almost like an Extended Edition on blu ray could achieve that. (Sigh)

 

Those are all generally valid critiques. Though there's one thing you missed: Finn asks Han why they are going to see Maz, and he says that it's to get them a clean ship to the Resistance Base because the Falcon is likely to have been tracked (and he doesn't want the FO to track them to the Base, as the Empire tracked the MF to the Rebel Base in ANH). So, there's a good and logical reason why they go there.
I also don't think some of the mysteries you lament (such as how Maz got the lightsaber) are detrimental to the story. I like mystery and "hints of historical depth" in my fantasy stories, and TFA excels at that, IMO. It leaves you wanting more, rather than wanting everyone to shut up already. I also disagree that the beginning doesn't work, tonally. Star Wars, beginning with ANH, seamlessly blends darkness and violence with humor and lightness. ANH's and ESB's beginning are like that as well. And it works somehow.

But yeah. The setup for SKB, Hux's speech, and the destruction of Hosnian Prime, in particular, were all rather perfunctory. We know there are a few deleted scenes setting all that up which were cut pretty late in the game, and I really wish they hadn't been, as we would not be having nearly as many frustrating conversations here as we have been!

 

Whilst I disagree about the tone and Maz, (I obviously enjoyed her role in the movie) TFA DID really need a bit more with regards to the state of the Galaxy. You can infer it sure, but you shouldn't have to. It's a frustrating oversight that could have been remedied with only a few additions in terms of scenes/dialogue. It's almost like an Extended Edition on blu ray could achieve that. (Sigh)[/quote]

Like, the opening scene of ANH perfectly set up the relationship between the rebellion and the Empire, established our heroes (three of them), our main enemy, and told us what the plot of the movie was going to be. It was all about getting the secret plans to the rebel base to destroy the Death Star. Got it.

TFA opens with somebody talking to somebody about something having to do with Luke maybe? He gives Poe a USB Drive and then the village gets murdered, the guy gets killed without us knowing who he was or why we should care, and the droid runs away with whatever it is that's on the flash drive.

We understand this something is somehow important, but it's weird cause it's a map and it is hard to believe that there is not another map anywhere in the galaxy that they could use apart from the one on the flash drive. And this is somehow supposed to lead to Luke, but it's not explained.

BB-8 does not say, "Hey, Rey, you have to help me get off planet and get to the rebel base." He just says, "Hey, Rey!" And they wouldn't have started the plot at all if Finn hadn't bumped into them.

Then, none of our heroes want to be on this quest or care about the cause. They just wind up getting stuck doing it. The destruction of the 3 whatever planets convinces Finn for some reason to help the resistance, where before his entire reason for running was, "they're too strong." How did this contradict that?

Also, apparently they built another base that can blow up planets. Just a head's up. This was not developed at all. It was more like, "Oh yeah, we have that. Use it now, I guess!" <- literally almost Snoke's line from the film.

Maz's planet gets destroyed and I don't know if she lived, but I also don't really care cause I don't know who she is anyway.

That was more of a rant than I intended, but it explains how clunky I thought most of the movie to be. And, as a note, I really like the movie and would go see it a 3rd time. Just, I didn't really know what was happening most of the time.

 

I think Hosnian prime should have been Coruscant. On opening night I thought it was, for a couple of minutes, and the impact was bigger - it felt like destroying something with history and meaning.
I'm guessing that they went with Hosnian because blowing up Coruscant might have been a little on the nose as a prequel dig, and maybe they don't want to be done with Coruscant just yet. If Coruscant doesn't appear in the rest of the trilogy, it will seem bizarre that a different planet was destroyed.

 

I like Maz quite a lot. I think she is well constructed and performed as well. Somewhat less convincing in 3D if you are at a bad angle but never bad in my five mixed viewings of presentations, positions, and times.

I also think she is rather important because while Han Solo performed quite well as as the wise elder but he couldn't be used as the guide through the looking Glass or the wardrobe or even their locations so we could go through on our own.

 

Like, the opening scene of ANH perfectly set up the relationship between the rebellion and the Empire, established our heroes (three of them), our main enemy, and told us what the plot of the movie was going to be. It was all about getting the secret plans to the rebel base to destroy the Death Star. Got it.

TFA opens with somebody talking to somebody about something having to do with Luke maybe? He gives Poe a USB Drive and then the village gets murdered, the guy gets killed without us knowing who he was or why we should care, and the droid runs away with whatever it is that's on the flash drive.

We understand this something is somehow important, but it's weird cause it's a map and it is hard to believe that there is not another map anywhere in the galaxy that they could use apart from the one on the flash drive. And this is somehow supposed to lead to Luke, but it's not explained.

BB-8 does not say, "Hey, Rey, you have to help me get off planet and get to the rebel base." He just says, "Hey, Rey!" And they wouldn't have started the plot at all if Finn hadn't bumped into them.

Then, none of our heroes want to be on this quest or care about the cause. They just wind up getting stuck doing it. The destruction of the 3 whatever planets convinces Finn for some reason to help the resistance, where before his entire reason for running was, "they're too strong." How did this contradict that?

Also, apparently they built another base that can blow up planets. Just a head's up. This was not developed at all. It was more like, "Oh yeah, we have that. Use it now, I guess!" <- literally almost Snoke's line from the film.

Maz's planet gets destroyed and I don't know if she lived, but I also don't really care cause I don't know who she is anyway.

That was more of a rant than I intended, but it explains how clunky I thought most of the movie to be. And, as a note, I really like the movie and would go see it a 3rd time. Just, I didn't really know what was happening most of the time.[/quote]






Don't want to instigate a big back and forth regarding every point in your post, but:

- Kylos dialogue establishes that the data stick is "the map to Skywalker", so we know what it is. There is certainly a fair bit of mystery regarding the map, but I have no problem with that.


- The movie does set up the dynamic of the First Order/Resistance. It has the enormous shadow of the Finalizer "swallowing" Jakku, and has Kylo's invasion up against (excluding the villagers), a single resistance fighter with his X-wing. So we have a microcosm here of the larger FO/Resistance dynamic. However, yes it's true that it doesn't fully establish to my satisfaction the relationship between the resistance and republic (as I admitted above).

- Lor San Tekka is "an old ally" to Genreal Leia, and clearly highly regarded by Poe too. The affection they share for Leia is established in that opening scene. Yes, he's a fairly "mystical" character, but that's nothing new to Star Wars. I certainly cared about him.

- bb8 does literally tell Rey almost exactly that, as per her dialogue, "bb8 says he's on a secret mission, he says he has to get back to your base" (referring to Finn and his lie). In terms of the story stalling without Finn here, no because the stormtroopers would only spot bb8 a few seconds later anyway (who they are also looking for) and Rey would have to run.

- Finn is obviously horrified like everyone else at the Hosnian destruction, and when the FO land on Takodana, he has no choice but to fight them. However, it's the kidnapping of Rey shortly after that really drives him to join the fight with the resistance and stop running, although he clearly cares about the danger the FO pose (despite his fear).

- Rey is onboard with the mission the moment bb8 tells her about it, quite early in the film. She wants to get the droid to the resistance, and THEN instantly return to Jakku, because of her neurosis/fear regarding waiting for her family.

- yes there isn't really a build up to Starkiller earlier in the film. Doesn't bother me though in the slightest.

I appreciate that you like the film, and that your take above is clearly honest. I think the issue is that TFA moves faster than any of the OT films (though I like the pacing of it), so it's easy to miss stuff if you're used to that old pacing style. I implore you to see it again though!

 

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This. Many of Daharis' points are valid, but in a lot of cases, there's enough in the film to communicate what's going on (and the film mostly does so visually, to its credit - its a far more impressionistic piece of art than some give it credit for). The problem, IMO, is that the film flies by so fast, that critical information sometimes seems inconsequential. It really could have used a few more breathers in each of its three acts. A bit more set up for the galactic stakes, especially, would have been great.

Though at least we have reason to believe that we may see a lot of these scenes on the Blu-ray. A full half hour or so of the film was cut very late in the game.