Rebels How should Vader be handled in the series?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by InterestingLurker, Jun 1, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I would hope that he is not portrayed like "stoic badass robot" all the time. That would get boring quickly and would be a disservice to the character. He is always rather emotional and conflicted (even in OT) and I would like to see this side too as long as he isn't wussified. I don't know why he is portrayed as unfeeling machine so often when he emotes all the time. The mask doesn't show much but his voice and gestures are usually very expressive.

    Yes, Ghost Prison is an excellent story but Vader in there didn't feel like Vader. The whole angle about how Vader only values submission endlessly confused me if I compare it with ANH where he did listen to Daine Jir. I also don't know why he killed Thom in the end when there was absolutely no practical reason to do so. He is usually not that petty. Trachta felt almost more like Vader in this one...
  2. Nexumaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2005
    star 4
    Speaking of Vader's voice, it would be great if they could get James Earl Jones to do it (I'm also pretty sure that having that confirmed, it would attract more potential watchers).
    Last edited by Nexumaster, Jun 11, 2013
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  3. Hansa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2013
    star 1
    I agree. He clearly has feelings -- they are why he became a Sith in the first place. I find that villains who are devoid of feelings and emotions are boring. They aren't relatable to most people (very few psychopaths in the world), and villains, just like protagonists, should be relatable. Can't have a villain people hate -- they should be deep enough that you can actually root for them in certain situations and feel what they feel as well as understand their motivations for what they are doing. Otherwise they become old school supervillains, and those aren't very Star Wars.

    Oh it would be a dream to get James for Vader and Ian for Palpatine, but that will (with 99.9% certainty on my part) remain a dream. I think Matt Lucas will take on the role again, since he is the official voice double of James Earl Jones. :p
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  4. Praenomen Cognomen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2013
    star 4

    It is possible to pull if off in that "villain you love to hate" context... one such instance was this past season of Boardwalk Empire. Bobby Cannavale played a character so sadistic that you just... can't even... I dunno, you'd have to watch it. Or certain people in GoT, who you constantly say, "This person better have a great friggin' death..." but the problem is, it turns into revenge porn. It's just not Star Wars, and it's not possible with Vader because we know what happens with him.

    That's where we need a new villain, specific to the show, but one problem with pulling off the super-legit-sinister villains in the past has been that many of the deaths in TCW are very "soft." Victims just quickly turn into ragdolls, and there's no time to look the villains in the eyes and really fear them. So, to me, that won't really be possible with Star Wars on Disney for S&P reasons, so I think it is best to go the conflicted route with Vader. When else are we ever be able to see that Vader, outside the end of ROTJ?
  5. Trebor Sabreon Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    By my count, she played a starring or co-starring role in at least 12 of the 20 episodes (or 60%) last season, more than any other TCW lead character. Not to be a jerk, or anything, but I'm just sayin'. :)
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  6. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    Vader should be prominent IMO, but at the same time not on the battlefield in lightsaber combat every episode. I feel like he should be used as he was in the OT, mainly as the guy giving orders. He did participate in some action directly, but most of his appearances were in scenes in which he's interacting with his subordinates or peers. Don't turn the character into a gimmick.

    I don't want to see the goodness or conflict within him. Nobody really felt that aside from Luke and Padme, to everyone else he was a ruthless oppressor and murderer that had lost his humanity as Obi-Wan implies to Luke. I want to see him fully evil, I want to know what exactly keeps him going and keeps him loyal to Palpatine even after Palpatine no longer has Padme's survival to tempt him with. I also want to see how his place in the Empire changes over time. How Palpatine is expecting an apprentice that will surpass him and replace him, but instead has an apprentice that he will ultimately want replaced.

    Is Palpatine still feign friendship and kindness to Vader, or is Vader now his to use and abuse as he wishes? In ROTJ we hear Vader both referred to as "friend" and yet ultimately referred to as property.

    I'm more interested in seeing how Vader's relationships play out with the other characters like Tarkin, Palpatine and Yularen (assuming all of these will appear) just as much as I am to seeing Vader in action - though again, sparingly.
  7. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    He is getting real old, I doubt he'd have any interest. I'm sure if Vader makes a cameo in the films, which I suspect he will one way or another, he'd come back for it but not for an animated series.

    I would love it but I certainly don't expect it.
  8. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    How should Vader be handled?

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  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    But there's Ahsoka which at this point is like a little sister to him. It would make sense that he would hold some affection for her, more-so than even for Luke who was only connected through the blood.

    Palps treated him as property only when it was too late to keep up the masquerade. Before that he feigned friendliness.

    Palps also only wanted to replace Vader in RotJ, when Vader was wavering and plotting against him. Before, in TESB, Palpatine wasn't at all interested in Luke Skywalker and had to be talked into allowing Vader to turn him.
  10. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    Obi-Wan was said by Anakin to be like a father to him and yet he tried to kill him. Vader might attempt to turn Ahsoka in the same way that it was implied that Vader was giving Obi-Wan the chance ("if you're not with me, then you're my enemy"). But I don't think he would be as conflicted by her as he would Luke or Padme.

    I find it unusual that Palpatine would treat Vader friendly since as we see with Dooku and Savage, torture and humiliation are part of the Sith training. The apprentice is meant to hate the master. And the implication I felt was that if Luke refused to join, as he did at the end of ROTJ, then Vader would remain the apprentice. Vader even gets up and returns to his master's side as Palpatine tortures his son, and he feels conflicted between siding with the Emperor vs. saving Luke. All of this is after Palpatine to Vader as property and told Luke to kill him.

    Personally, I did not get the impression that Palpatine was dropping an act in being cruel to Vader, but that it was something Vader dealt with regularly and was accustomed to. If some close friend of mine betrayed me and was encouraging another person to kill me, I surely would not go on being friends with that person after the plot fails. Yet after being proven expendable to Palpatine, Vader's immediate reaction is still to get up and stand beside him as his apprentice.

    Plus there is dialogue regarding the Emperor's unforgiving nature and implied fear in that Vader "must obey [his] master."

    I felt that it was implied that Vader was on the receiving end of some of Palpatine's cruelty and harshness. But in ROTS Palpatine never raises a hand against Vader and pretty much keeps assuring him that they are doing the right thing and saving the galaxy, etc. I'd like to see the evolution of that relationship.
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Why would he not? Ahsoka is at least as dear to him as Luke was because he didn't know Luke yet knows Ahsoka very well.

    Only in the EU. In the movies he only treats Vader badly after he has already dropped the facade in the throne room. I would like to think that Sidious knows better than to mistreat someone with authority problems and a massive fleet at his disposal (who also killed his old masters *hinthint*). Sidious sure acts stupidly a lot of times but is he really that stupid? In the throne room he obviously got carried away, so I don't think it should be taken as an example of his day to day behavior.

    Why would Palps call him a friend if he tortures him at the same time? Does he not know what the hell he is doing? Is he really that retarded? Should I seriously view him as someone who is too senile to understand even the most basic things about his own apprentice? You kinda paint him as the greatest idiot in the universe.

    I think implying what he could do to Vader if he was ever angered by him was more than enough to make Vader understand the situation. There was no need to scare him into betraying him by lightning bolting at every opportunity. Because if anything generates treachery it is being scared out of your wits and being constantly in pain. After all this is a Sith Lord. When he is afraid he will become aggressive, very aggressive.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 13, 2013
  12. MRCynical Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2008
    star 1
    Anything in the EU which is directly contradicted by the films is not canon. Darth Maul died in Episode 1 - as Mace Windu's "but which was destroyed?" question to Yoda demonstrates.



    Perhaps like TCW, Rebels will have a set-piece longer opening episode (perhaps not with a cinema release this time) with James Earl Jones doing Vader's voice in that but not the main series, just as Christopher Lee did for the TCW filmisode.
    Last edited by MRCynical, Jun 13, 2013
  13. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Clone Maul has nothing to do with the real one being alive or dead.
  14. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Vader should be handled by hunting down the remaining Jedi.
  15. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I agree with this.

    In the ROTS novel, Darth Sidious told Dooku that he was going to abolish the rule of two, and Dooku fell for that line, which is why Sidious' betrayal came as such a shock to the Count. Dooku thought Sidious wouldn't betray him, until chancellor Palpatine started encouraging Anakin. So Vader would already be familiar with that situation, having witnessed it before. I think Vader knows the rule of two goes down, and that all Sith apprentices are disposable to Sidious.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    If he knows the RoT is in place, why would he openly suggest to Palpatine to train Luke? [face_dunno]

    No, in TESB the RoT has clearly been abolished already. Of course both Sith were expecting to be betrayed but not because of the rule.
  17. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    The rule had not been abolished since Palpatine wants Luke to kill Vader and take his place. There is no reason to betray each other if they can all coexist. I agree that it's awkward that Vader openly suggests turning Luke. My guess is the concept of the Rule of Two did not exist in Lucas' mind at the time and was made retroactively to explain why at the peak of their power there were still only two Sith in the films. However Vader does not openly suggest Luke become his apprentice or Palpatine's apprentice and instead merely suggests that they turn him into an ally. Asajj Ventress is someone that served the Sith but was not one of them. Vader could have been suggesting the same of Luke.

    By the time of ROTJ Vader is completely pathetic when Palpatine is overseeing him. He seems to have given up on turning Luke to be his own apprentice and instead defends Palpatine, tolerates being referred to as Palpatine's property, gets back up and returns to his master's side after Palpatine fails to goad Luke to kill him, he insists that he MUST obey Palpatine despite previously attempting to create a ploy to usurp him in ESB, and instead of trying to be Luke's master he tells Luke that Palpatine will be his master instead.

    In ESB Vader's out on his own tracking Luke Skywalker and knows his name before Palpatine even reveals that Luke is Vader's son. He confronts Luke and tries to convince him to turn to the Dark Side and overthrow Palpatine. But when Vader's autonomy is checked and he's now under Palpatine's direct supervision in ROTJ, he didn't dare propose betrayal and just seemed to give up.

    I believe Palpatine also mentions that only together would he and Vader be able to turn Luke. While Vader tries to convince Luke to join him in ESB, this is only after Vader failed to freeze Luke with the intention of taking him to the Emperor and had initially referred to him as "the Emperor's prize."

    The Rule of Two may or may not have existed in Lucas' mind during the OT - which would explain some of the awkward conversations - but it now seems to have been retroactively incorporated per Lucas' commentaries on the films. Filoni has the opportunity to do whatever he wants in regards to the Rule of Two post ROTS but I'm betting he's going to stick with it. Otherwise why didn't the Sith proliferate like crazy once the Empire was established?

    I'd like to see how that plays out in Rebels in the early days before Luke. Did Palpatine take on secret apprentices to challenge Vader? Was Vader plotting to usurp Palpatine? Vader goes from arrogant in ROTS believing he can overthrow Palpatine to a complete wimp in ROTJ.
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  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    1) Vader plotting against him is one hell of a reason to replace him with Luke. Palpatine probably guessed that something strange was going on and acted accordingly. Makes more sense anyway because Luke doesn't strike me as a talented military strategist. Vader is more useful in that regard.

    2) RoT also doesn't exist in the EU at the time because Plagueis and Palps did away with it (Darth Plagueis novel in which Lucas had a hand as well). Yoda's information is outdated.

    3) Luke could never become a Ventress. He's too powerful for that.

    I think he is simply depressed and down in RotJ. It makes sense because his good side just resurfaced and he knows he is responsible for the death of billions. It's kinda hard to cope with that and the excuse that you only served your master comes in handy then. "I only followed orders" is basically what he tells Luke and interestingly the standard excuse of military mass murderers who stand trial. Only when Sidious tortures Luke does he really take responsibility for his own sins and does at least one right thing.

    Before RotJ he was however 100% Sith and far from a beaten slave. When he told Luke he wanted to overthrow the Emperor he did so with a lot of conviction in his voice. He really believed it would work and when he said Emperor's prize he sounded quite sarcastic.

    In the EU the RoT is broken even before TPM so I have no idea what Filoni will do with it. What we have now is a giant mess surrounding the RoT. It would be interesting what Filonis personal stance is on it. Because I don't think he is obligated to either follow Lucas or the EU.

    Not sure if Palps has the time to take a secret apprentice. Directly after RotS he must have his hands full with political work. It's possible he could train a secret apprentice later though.

    Like I said, RotJ Vader was wavering and uncertain about how he should continue with his life. But up til TESB Vader is full-core Sith.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jun 14, 2013
  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Speaking of the Mechno-Moff, I wonder how much we'll see of him?
  20. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Ghost Prison was excellent... minus the end - that was retarded. I loved how Trachta wanted to save the Separatists!

    Vader was fine in the story. They really combined perfectly the PT Anakin raging with the smooth Vader from the OT, but that is just me.


    I hope we do. He has a really awesome design that could translate perfectly to CG.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Trachta is kinda cool. Not my favorite imperial officer, but still interesting.
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  22. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Vader's no threat to Darth Sidious imo. The Imperials would never betray the Emperor for Vader.
    1) The imperials don't like Vader too much. Due to his force choking them and being generally horrifying
    2) The imperials are generally ridiculous and incompetent. If they did like Vader enough to overthrow the empire, they'd fail laughably and it'd come down to Vader vs Sidious anyway.

    It'd be like Grievous taking the droid army to overthrow the separatists and Dooku. Not even possible, because it's not really his army.
  23. Paparazzo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2011
    star 2
    Minimal but terrifying.
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  24. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 5
    Yeah I want a comptent terrifying bad@ss whose presence crushes Hope itself also minimum enough to generate fear
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  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Palpatine died because he was thrown into a shaft.
    Soldiers in RotS killed plenty of Jedi, usually just a few clones were enough for a Jedi master.
    He was poisoned to unconsciousness in Ghost Prison by the headmaster of an imperial academy.

    Lets not underrate the "normals" again please. Any force user can be taken out with proper preparation and strategy, yes, even Palpatine.

    As for Grievous he could have some Neimoidian reprogram the droids and would then have a whole platoon droids to deal with Dooku.
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