Rebels How should Vader be handled in the series?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by InterestingLurker, Jun 1, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
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    What do you mean? Vader's suit notably changed in every movie so far. The eyelenses in the OT are rounded for instance while those in RotS are flat. RotS helmet is symmetrical, all OT-helmets are asymmetrical. And so on. I don't see where RotS implied he was in the same suit for all his life.

    As for 2 creative consultant Lucas has no more say on canon. Filoni now needs Kennedy's approval, not Lucas'.

    I would find it interesting to see however how he adapts to life in the suit. It is only realistic that he would have some problems in the beginning.
  2. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
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    I've never noticed any change between suits. Not saying they haven't changed, but it's not "notable" the suit in ROTS always looked exactly the same to me as his ANH suit or ESB suit. If there are differences that I've not seen in being a fan of the films for two decades, then they are small and easily overlooked. The roundedness of his eyes isn't exactly in line with what I'm talking about. I mean major improvements or modifications.

    Lucas had suggested that Grievous was something of a precursor to Vader in that he is using technology that is not perfected until Vader. Yet in every way (aside from a cough) the technology that sustains Grievous seems to be better than Vader's. I give that up to the resources at Lucas' disposal in the 70s and then in the early 2000s. Now with animation, they can do whatever they want, and I'd hope that Vader will be shown to retain the same mechanical aptitude that Anakin had in the prequels to modify himself and make himself better. I don't really want to see Vader super acrobatic or fighting with his feet like Grievous, but he could make use of technology in other novel ways that Lucas was incapable of representing back in the 70s.

    I used the Tony Stark comparison half jokingly. I don't want to see Vader suits MK I-XXIV in his closet. But Tony is a technological genius obsessed with eliminating weakness by constantly improving his suits. Vader need not have a million suits, he could have a few or merely be constantly refining the same one, though given how *little* his suit evolves between ROTS and ANH, I wouldn't mind seeing a bigger deviation in the way of mission specific suits.

    Palpatine and Vader both boasted of Vader's potential to surpass Palpatine, which never happens. Vader still might be very powerful, but he is still handicapped from the potential he had. He's being sent out to hunt down Jedi that could very well kill him (Obi-Wan nearly did even when Vader was at his best). And on top of that there's the risk that if Vader fails or dissatisfies Palpatine, that Palpatine will seek to replace him. I would think that would give Vader a strong Stark-like obsession to constantly improve, both in the Force and by eliminating or compensating for any handicap that the suit imposes upon him.
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Interesting that you wouldn't notice. Especially the chest panel, gloves and helmet change from film to film. ANH helmet for instance is not as glossy as the other models. The dome, the eye lenses, the triangular air vents, it all changed from movie to movie.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    Really don't see a difference?

    If the Jedi could kill him, how was he then not killed? You'd think Obi-Wan and Yoda would finish him off if it were so easy. Training a new apprentice would cost Palpatine a lot of time and resources. Notable is also that Palpatine didn't want to replace him 'til RotJ. Vader had to convince him to leave Luke alive in TESB, indicating that Palpatine wasn't particularly interested in Luke despite his raw power.

    I am also not particularly a fan of putting to much stock in force power. Even if Vader had the force power to kill his master he still couldn't do so because he needed to be able to take over the Empire as well. It wouldn't be worth it to remove Palps and then still die because the Imperials turn on you. In the EU Vader repeatedly saves Palpatines life too.
  4. Toonimator Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2006
    star 4
    The biggest change, tho, between ROTS & the OT suits, is that upper chest/shoulder piece. In ROTS, it's a single piece; in the OT, one piece covers the chest, and the armor over his shoulders, his deltoids, are separate. Basically if ROTS Vader crosses his arms too quickly or shrugs too deeply, he'll lift that armor up & knock his helmet off. TONS of differences in the armors/suits, mostly minor, but ROTS is the biggest departure outside of ANH's original "surcoat OVER the upper body armor" look... ROTS suit's also the first one with a perfectly symmetrical helmet.

    I think that Vader was considerably weakened by the damage Obi-Wan & the lava caused, but he's STILL very powerful... which is one reason I think most ex-Jedi wouldn't try to challenge him, as word spread of his prowess (i.e. more like "PURGE"; the stories of Vader are exaggerated, tho he can still kick butt... it'd take either a large enough group of Jedi not quite as cocky as the PURGE group, and without any interference by clones, or someone on the level of Obi-Wan or Yoda to defeat him; Obi-Wan was probably too devastated by the ordeal & learning that Vader survived, plus he had more training to undergo & to watch over Luke; Yoda was simply too defeatist. "Well, failed, I have, to defeat the Emperor. Never such a good chance will I again have. Do or do not... I did not. Why even bother with Vader? Woe is me... wait for the Force's guidance, I will"). In clashes with ex-Jedi, or any 'worthy' opponent, it won't be his agility, but his control & use of the Force as a weapon that probably gives him his greatest edge, fueled by the dark side, as well as his swordsmanship--which is impressive, but not as impressive as it used to be, possibly.
  5. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    I can see why Palps did not see the need for Luke. He had already won no point.
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  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I always wonder why it is ignored that he killed the emperor. You can only explain so much with "surprise".
  7. Skaddix Force Ghost

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    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah it was kinda weird especially if force power levels in the EU are to be believed.
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  8. Toonimator Force Ghost

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    Aug 16, 2006
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    Surprise, and Palpatine locked into a power-trip. Think about his "UNNNLIIIIIIMMIIIIITTEDDDDDD POOOOOOOOOWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!" bit from ROTS. He was getting off on using his power, past the point of no return. Basically the only way to quit was to fulfill the goal of killing Luke... tunnel vision. He screamed when Vader grabbed him, but he was lost in the tide of power, had lost control--it had basically overwhelmed his senses, his will, he was just a conduit for the dark side energy pouring outta his fingers as lightning. THAT is how Vader won.
    Circular_Logic likes this.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Which is kinda weak, when you think about it. The power controlled him not the other way around.
  10. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    @Toonimator gives an interesting take on why Palpatine was unable to resist when Vader grabbed him and tossed him into the shaft. I think it's rather logical, actually. They say that power corrupts, and corrupts absolutely. We can probably liken this to the corruption of the Dark Side, which has already taken its toll on Sidious' physical form judging by his appearance. The Sith always believe the Force and the Dark Side can be controlled and bent to their will. But what if the Dark Side also controls them as well, especially during those times where they are drawing heavily from its powers? A two-way street, if you will. I don't know if it is canon, but I really like this explanation, and it really is something to think about.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Jul 2, 2013
  11. Toonimator Force Ghost

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    Aug 16, 2006
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    Think of it like a fire hose on full-blast... and he's just one guy, bracing himself to use it at a certain angle. Disrupt that balance, the hose could throw him around in theory. Vader disrupted his balance, his focus, and did it quickly enough (and it WAS still a pretty quick thing) that he couldn't regain control, shut off the flow, in time to react at all.
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  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Hm, that reminds me of something I read in the NJO, something I found interesting. There Luke and Mara spoke about how using the force in an excessive manner can blind you to more subtle and small changes in the force. While you are capable of blasting through a durasteel wall when you give yourself to the force totally and absolutely, you are at the same time incapable of lifting a single sand corn because of lack of focus.
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  13. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I don't remember the source, but around the time that ROTS was released Lucas threw out arbitrary figures making reference to Vader having the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor, while after his injuries he was only about 80% of what the Emperor was. Still very powerful, but a far cry from what he could be, which is why Palpatine took an interest in Luke.

    Palpatine wanted Luke dead because he was a threat that received an unknown amount of training from Obi-Wan and had the potential to destroy both Vader and Palpatine. When Vader objects saying that Obi-Wan is no longer alive to help him and that he could be turned, Palpatine is interested in the idea and all too eager in ROTJ to cast Vader aside.

    But nothing says that there couldn't have been other potential replacements in the 19 year gap between ROTS and ANH. Sidious seemed to be thrilled by the idea of having Anakin surpass him. Filoni has spoken of how the Sith don't frivolously invest time in training students, they want only the strongest students. Sidious must have seen some kind of potential in Maul to spend so much time training him. But then Maul was believed killed and replaced. Then throughout the Clone Wars Sidious was eyeing Anakin to replace Dooku because he was "far younger and more powerful."

    Sidious may have had the Jedi wiped out, but that doesn't mean that Force sensitive beings are not still being born. And there's nothing stopping someone with the Force potential of Mace Windu or Yoda (i.e. more powerful than Vader) from being born and potentially being groomed to replace Vader. Or with how S5 of TCW ended, they could even have Maul re-enter the picture, though I'm not too keen on that idea unless Rebels takes place soon after ROTS.

    Basically, I wouldn't mind seeing conflict within the ranks of the Sith, such as Vader and/or Palpatine creating schemes against each other in an attempt to replace one another and how each out maneuvers the other.

    Vader killing the Emperor would just appear treasonous. And if Palpatine seemingly had his right-hand-man and commander of the Executor killed arbitrarily, that might create discord among the leaders in the military. So IMO it would be interesting to see how the two navigate the politics to try and kill each other without drawing attention to the act.

    E.G. Maul ambushes Vader and is killed. Vader confronts Palpatine but Palpatine can congratulate Vader while denying having any involvement in Maul resurfacing to attack Vader. Or Vader tries to turn several Jedi that he is ordered to kill in an attempt to get an apprentice of his own. Or Palpatine and Vader discover a powerful Force adept and Palpatine sends Vader on a dangerous mission with the full expectation that Vader will be killed in the line of duty, allowing Palpatine to take the new apprentice for himself, and nobody would suspect that Palpatine had anything to do with Vader being killed in battle. Vader survives unexpectedly and Palpatine kills the adept to cover his tracks.

    etc.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I don't care for this twice as powerful claim. It seems ridiculous, a Jedi who is twice as powerful as Palpatine. As if Palpatine were not powerful enough!

    As for why Palpatine was interested in Luke, there is a fairly simple reason. He probably suspected Vader was plotting against him. Therefore, getting rid of him became part of his agenda.

    Your plot-suggestion doesn't sound very interesting for me. We already saw the Sith plotting in the OT, therefore it would be a bit of a rehash. And we would all know how its going to end so there would be no tension.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    The Sith plotting of the OT (or any Sith plotting - including Dooku and Asajj or Dooku and Savage) never goes anywhere. The OT plotting least of all.

    Vader: Join me.
    Luke: No.
    Vader: Well darn it.

    And by ROTJ we hear no further evidence of treachery on Vader's part.

    For all the talk about treachery being the way of the Sith or how the Sith nearly conquered the galaxy until they turned on each other, etc. we never see anything remotely close, mere propositions that go wrong for one reason or another. Thanaton and the Sith Inquisitor, Malak and Revan, Vader and Starkiller... The EU is ahead of the TV series so far.

    I suspect that this show, like TCW, will be all but devoid of tension saver for a handful of characters. Chances are if Vader ever crosses paths with a Jedi, you will know the Jedi either dies or at the very least gets away, but I don't think that means they shouldn't show such things.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
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    Palpatine betrays the republic, Anakin betrays his Jedi comrades, Palpatine betrays Vader in RotJ, Vader plots the betrayal of Palpatine in TESB. That's enough Sith betrayal stuff for me. I guess I can understand if you like this but it wouldn't/couldn't really go anywhere in the new series if it is a game between Vader/Palpatine. If there is a betrayal plot going on I'd hope it would mostly involve characters whose final fate we don't know.
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  17. Skaddix Force Ghost

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    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Hmm I just dont buy the tunnel vision argument, I would buy it if Vader just shoved Palpatine but he literally picks him up and carries him which should be more then enough time for Palps to do something
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  18. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    I think Palpatine was trying to do something. He ultimately did fatally wound Vader after all.

    In all other cases in which Force lightning is used it pretty much immediately incapacitates the person being hit. Yoda and Mace were rendered immediately helpless when they got hit by it and they were comparative to Sidious in power. Anakin was dispatched quickly by Dooku via Force lightning. Yet in this case Vader is acting like a lightning rod, receiving mortal wounds (or at least a short circuiting iron lung) and yet he still has the focus and determination to endure the pain, stay on his feet, and kill Palpatine.

    Vader went all out "honey badger" on Palpatine, and I do believe that Palpatine was fighting for his life at that moment, giving Vader all he had, it's just that Vader's determination was stronger than Force lightning.
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  19. Dark-Vador1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 3
    I think the best thing they can do with vader is put a better voice actor than the guy who does him right now and get someone who actually sounds like JEJ. my vote TOTALLY goes for Jonathan Adams, He is a professional who did a bunch of cartoons and games (You'd probably recognize him as Tyrael in Diablo III). Anyways he will probably sound something like this (with some related music and sounds):

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1406986/vaderjonadams.mp3
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  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Wow, that guy is really good! Much better than Matt Sloan.
  21. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    How should Vader be handled? In a word: unstoppable.

    Don't make him some pathetic idiot who shows up every week to get beat up by the good guys, like so much of the CIS was so unfairly reduced to. Make him powerful, deadly, and above all, feared. Have the very mention of his name chill the air. He shouldn't appear often, but each and every time he does he should score a resounding victory. Every time. Whenever he appears, named characters die, the rebels flee, and the Empire stands triumphant. Whatever Jedi show up on team good-guy (and rest assured they most definitely will) have to make heroic final stands to hold him off for the slightest handfuls of time. The best the rebels can hope for is for some of them to escape with their lives, and even that doesn't happen much. He's what you call in whenever the the usual guys just aren't cutting it. The Emperor's right hand, Jedi-killer, Rebel-hunter extraordinaire and general all-around badass, Darth frickin' Vader.

    That is how he should be handled.

    P.S. No Ahsoka-Vader interactions that don't involve him impaling her on a lightsaber. Redeeming Vader is Luke's job, not that little orange runt's.
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  22. DanielUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    *IF* Starkiller is added to Rebels, I want to know one simple thing:

    How on Earth can Vader who apparently cannot cast Force Lightning, be able to teach it to his apprentice? I thought about this the other day and realised it is an actual very big plot whole of the EU.

    100% agreed.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I believe at least one comic (I think Darth Vader & The Ghost Prison) actually shows Vader with a ball of lightning at his hand.

    It may be, that conjuring Force Lightning simply requires a state of mind- which Vader can get in, and show others how to get in.

    But also, it's hazardous to his artificial parts- so he may avoid using the "bolts" form of it.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    It's called kinetite and it is absolutely silly. Instead of giving him force lightning they gave him a power that is fundamentally the same thing but with a different name. It would be better to just give him the traditional lightning and say he doesn't use it often because he isn't talented with it (just like Palpatine doesn't use force chokes).
  25. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Sure, he doesn't use it in the films, but he does use it a couple of times in The Lawless...

    [IMG]
    He chokes out two Mandalorians whilst barely lifting a finger, and then repeats this in the Sundari palace throne room while not even looking at the guards that he Force-chokes to death as he's striding down the hallway.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Jul 10, 2013
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