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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST How TFA and TLJ work together

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Christopher Blair, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Over the past week, I have seen lots of post about how Rian threw everything JJ did right out the window and I am here to talk about the through lines that are carried on from TFA to TLJ, and how they are great at least to me. Instead of posting all of them in my opening message, Im going to spread them out in this thread. My first one is about two of my favorite characters in the ST and they are Snoke and Kylo. Im going to try and go in chronological order from TFA to TLJ but I might jump back and forth a little.

    So we first meet Kylo in TFA and he does seem like a direct rip off of vader with a slightly better costume, (the vader costume in ANH does seem very party city Halloween costume lets be honest lol). Kylo can stop blaster bolts in the air, has a lightsaber and can read minds (which we will get into more heavily later). As the movie goes on we learn that he is the son of leia and han and is a mixed up young boy who is basically playing dress up. We also meet Snoke who at first just seems like a typical big baddie from any big SciF/fantasy movie, but we do see some character traits that are shown and not told, like he is a huge ego maniac, we are shown this bc he projects himself as a 40 foot tall monster. We also learn that he can feel the force from a great distance when he tells kylo there has been an awakening can you feel it. As the movie goes on kylo kills han and takes a chewy blaster bolt to the gut, which is shown to be very powerful throughout TFA. After that Rey defeats Kylo ad goes off to find luke.

    Now as TLJ comes in Rian took what JJ did with snoke and kylo and adds on to it, My favorite scene of the movie is the first throne room scene where snoke dresses down kylo. He basically calls kylo out on his BS, calls him a scared and conflicted little boy playing dress up and he should take that mask off. Once again I think Snoke is shown to be an ego maniac by what he wears and by not having a weapon of any sorts of his own. no staff, no lightsaber, or anything. Snoke's main weapon is his mind, he is a trickster as I have said in other threads.which ties back into TFA. Snoke throws hux around from another ship in TLJ and of course he sets up the force link between kylo and rey. The one part of the movie that I think a lot of folks might be wrong on bc it is very heavily suggested at, is the luke and kylo hut scene where luke thinks about killing kylo for a second. I think snoke was already deep in kylo's head and half of what luke saw was what snoke wanted him to see. So he tricked master and pupil into turning on each other.

    Finally of course we get into the infamous second throne room scene aka snokes death, and the biggest complaint I hear is how is snoke that powerful and not sense that kylo is turning on him, and once again one main reason that is set up in both movies is that he is vain and an ego maniac, but there is another reason, that once again is shown from TFA onward.... And that is Kylos ability to read minds very well and trick people. Its obvious Snoke has taught kylo how to read and trick people's minds into doing what he wants to some degree. In TFA alone we see this three different times. we see kylo sense finn's defection, Poe was able to resist torture but easily was read by Kylo in seconds, when kylo first meets rey at maz's castle he quickly determine that he doesnt need BB8 anymore bc he knows rey has seen the map by reading her mind, it also shows kylo freezing rey much like snoke does later in TLJ. Thats why when rey stops kylo from reading her mind on his ship he cant believe it and neither can snoke which gives way to the line of "bring me that girl." In TLJ after the force link is set up by snoke; Kylo does an excellent job of tricking rey to come right to him bc he was trained well by Snoke to trick people. So back to the death scene it is perfectly plausible to me that kylo was able to hold Snoke at bay and out of his mind for 4 seconds to kill him, bc snoke trained him how to do it.

    So these are my initial thoughts be back later to talk about other threads that carry onward from TFA to TLJ.
     
  2. carte blanche

    carte blanche Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 14, 2017
  3. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    they most def do with folks who can follow story lines from one movie to another
     
  4. The Raddinator

    The Raddinator Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 18, 2017
    I strongly agree with your overall theory. I was genuinely very surprised to see people claiming TLJ threw TFA out, as it seemed to me to obviously take it as its foundation but build on it. There are not really any contradictions or inconsistencies between the two except maybe Snoke's 'Completing his training' remark about Kylo. (But then, I thought Rey was going to be nobody's kid back when I saw TFA and I always saw it as pointing in that direction)
     
  5. carte blanche

    carte blanche Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 14, 2017
    removed/bait
     
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  6. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    naw pretty basic stuff, like it is shown in TFA awakens that kylo is really good at getting into peoples minds, and in TLJ it is shown that snoke is a master at it, pretty sure most 12 yr olds can put together that puzzle. snoke trained kylo how to do it, which is a direct through line from TFA to TLJ
     
  7. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Yeah Like I said kylo still has a lot to learn, but he is dangerous and a psychopath who is bi-polar at the very least lol. Vader was ruthless but very predictable. Kylo is a loose cannon, he saw a quick chance to kill snoke and took it without hesitation. there was no back and forth like vader had when the emperor was killing luke in ROTJ. That is why I like kylo so much he is dangerous and unpredictable. One of the areas I did not like as much in TLJ is how hux was treated, I hope JJ has Hux try and take back control of the first order in the last movie. That is something we have never seen a military coup.
     
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  8. CakeThiefPro

    CakeThiefPro Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 16, 2015

    Yeah, Kylo Ren is so good at getting into peoples minds that he's repulsed by a character with zero training and very little understanding of the force.
     
  9. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    Its basic all right. Basically crappy
     
  10. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    yep thats the force in a nutshell it is as strong or as weak as any director or writer wants it to be. JJ set it up that way and Rian had to carry it through with the line darkness rises and light to meet it. In ANH two old men could barely swing sabers, in the PT george lucas had jedi flying around like mini neo's from the matrix and had the force making babies, at this pt between the movies, old cannon and new canon the force could do anything and I wouldnt be shocked it is the ultimate plot device. As strong or as weak as the writer wants it to be.
     
  11. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I disagree totally but at least you admit its there and not hard to see at all.
     
  12. Eeyore freak

    Eeyore freak Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 19, 2016
    I would also say Luke’s arc works with what TFA set up. Han said Luke felt responsible for Kylo and walked away from everything. That’s literally what we get in TLJ. I would have maybe liked something more complex, but it’s not inconsistent with what was set up.
     
  13. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Yep. Rey and others saw him as a legend from the war (which he was). They just assumed he would return to save the day.
     
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  14. Dak Oolron

    Dak Oolron Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 24, 2014
    I hope so, too! I think between the two movies there has been a lot of resentment built up by Hux. With Snoke (seemingly) killed off, only Kylo stands between Hux and his (probable) goal of becoming Supreme Leader, himself. To be honest, I actually wondered if we'd see Hux order troops to turn on Kylo before TLJ was over, but obviously Kylo put Hux in his place... for now ;)

    I like your theory about Kylo & Snoke in TFA & TLJ in the OP, btw.
     
    Christopher Blair likes this.
  15. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    exactly which is my next through line aka the map. A lot of folks call this a plot hole of why luke would make a map if he didnt want to be found. who said he didnt ever want to be found at the start. After kylo destroys lukes temple its not like luke just ran off and didnt tell anybody, bc if that was the case han would have never known about what happened to luke and kylo so obviously at some pt luke contacted leia or han and told them what happened. Han even says luke went on to try and gain knowledge by going back through all the old jedi temples so obviously he was keeping in contact at different spots with someone probably lor sen teka and others. Thats when I believe he started to lose faith, after each temple he went to he saw more and more of how the jedi were failing in large scale and small scale through history, so he started to lose faith and by the time he got to Ahch-To he made up his mind that this jedi stuff is not working and you know what he is not wrong. Even in the old EU canon like KOTOR the jedi were shown to be a bloated bureaucracy willing to let the galaxy burn. Same to an extent in the PT. So that when luke severed his force connection and decided to go silent and was like its time for the jedi to end.

    So once again its like folks forget all this was gone over in TFA and into TLJ here is the scene where han talks about luke. Never once does han say he broke off all contact. he says people that knew him best now said he went looking for the first temple, which implies from the map locations and han himself, that he made several other stops at temples along the way, learning the jedi history. I bet half those books in that tree were from other temples an luke was collecting them all along the way.

     
  16. Dak Oolron

    Dak Oolron Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 24, 2014
    I don't think it was ever a "Map to Luke", anyway- it was an existing map to the first Jedi temple, and it just so happens, that's where Luke was, too. I think that helps fix a lot of people's complaints about Luke making a map to himself. Most of the characters in-universe referred to it as a "Map to Luke", because from their point of view, that's why they even cared about the map.
     
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  17. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    well I disagree with that, its moreso a gps record so to speak of where luke checked in. bc its shows a line to each place luke visted
     
  18. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    if you pause the video at 1:50 you can see the line and the bright red dots at each temple luke stopped at. so to my pt its not that luke made a map to himself, it is others recorded where he stopped and checked in. for instance lets say he stopped on jedha, he could have sent a message to sen teka that said he found a scripture from the old republic and sent the message to sen teka and he was the one that recorded it on a map. folks forget he has been on the island for 4 to 5 yrs, no where does it say that as soon as he got to the island he broke all contact.

     
  19. BucMan-55

    BucMan-55 Jedi Master star 1

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    Nov 2, 2004
    Another thing Kylo does is misdirect Snoke. Snoke ASSUMES the saber Kylo is turning and about to ignite is the one he is holding in his hand. They even show him turning it with his hand. When Kylo hears Snoke admit to linking his mind with Rey he knows he's being spied on explicitly. He makes Rey the big focus in his mind to fool Snoke.
     
  20. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    very good pt, also as soon as the link was set up kylo told rey he knew she didnt do it bc she is not powerful enough, I think right then kylo somewhere deep inside him knew what he was going to do with snoke
     
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  21. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 17, 2014
    Luke trained Kylo. Kylo was infact influenced by Luke more than one would think. Case in point. Disenchantment (Kylo with the whole Jedi/Sith business) and Luke disenchantment with the Jedi overlooking the Sith (and in extension the Force is not about the Jedi alone ie vanity (Snoke infact shows his vanity that the Force is for the Sith) Kylo/Ben tells Rey "you need a teacher" and Luke telling Rey "you need a teacher";albeit in a different sort of context.

    MJ
     
  22. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2004
    Has there been any word on the duration of events from the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ? About three or four days? Maybe five?
     
  23. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I watched The Force Awakens again after seeing The Last Jedi three times. I'm really surprised how fluidly one movie flows into the other. It's like one long movie. The characters for the most part are dealing with the same problems from the previous movie in more obvious ways with bigger consequences.

    Kylo Ren's story goes in a direct line to his confrontation with Luke. It's like everything is practice for that moment in Last Jedi. The Jakku village attack and murder of Lor San Tekka by Kylo is pretty much repeated with the assault on Crait and fight with Luke Skywalker. Kylo is hunting down his mentors and it starts on Jakku. It's interesting how Lor San Tekka has no past connection for the audience. It's getting Kylo ready for all the other father figures he cuts down.

    Poe's actions on Jakku and wise cracks with Kylo Ren are repeated in a bigger way with Hux at the start of The Last Jedi. But ultimately he loses both times. It's the same character strengths and flaws just repeated bigger and bolder in The Last Jedi.

    Luke might be in worse shape than I first realized. Why was Luke dressed up when Rey got to the island? Did he see the Falcon land and put his dress clothes on? Or did Rey interrupt Luke? Is there more to Luke throwing the lightsaber off the cliff? Was he going to jump off the cliff? There is a very direct shot of Luke folding and putting away his Jedi clothes. Luke dresses up again when he burns down the force tree. This time Yoda interrupts. Was Luke going to burn himself up with the tree?

    Also when Luke goes to confront Ben Solo in his flashback. You can hear what Luke senses. Luke must see Ben and the other fallen students destroying the temple and other students. In the third flashback there is a sound that echos Return of the Jedi after Vader says he will turn Leia to the Dark Side and Luke gets angry.
     
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  24. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    Perhaps I always thought it was a couple of weeks, both sides had to regroup for a bit I would think, plus we don't know how far away snokes ship was from the rebel base, from the end of TFA to TLJ
     
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  25. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I was also going to do a through line of luke from episode 4 through 7 but I think this video sums it up perfectly for those who say #notmyluke lol. Once again its ok not to like a choice the last jedi makes, but lets not act like what he does in 8 is out of character. as seen below