How The Phantom Menace Killed the Star Wars Franchise

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Jabbadabbado, May 25, 2002.

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  1. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "AOTC is not going to win best picture."

    I can't remember but how many Star Wars films won best picture? Since when is a few thousand member academy the arbiter of quality anyway? ;)


    "And in 20 years, it will be no more than a cinematic footnote to the original Star Wars."

    Now you can predict the future? :p
  2. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    "The Clone Wars are going to be a strange beast. Mindless robots vs Human clones built to act like mindless robots. The Droids and clones are both fearless and oblivious to the horrors of war"

    yes...i've thought about this exact same thing. it seems like its going to be emotionally hollow, if the only things that are suffering and dying are clones and robots, and no real humans. most wars are considered tragedies because of the toll in human life...and are considered horrific for the pains that humans must endure to fight them. also, you dont really have the nobility of a human laying down his life or suffering terrible atrocities to defend his beliefs or country. how can there be emotional impact in this? its kinda the same with tpm, there was no real face to the battle droids...they were about as threatening as the two robots on mystery science theater 3000. i just dont think you can have any real sense of human sacrifice and loss.
  3. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Yoda isn't looking forward to the Clone War. Unlike the fans...

    I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say KILL 'EM ALL!!! ;)


    All kidding aside, Ulaleros, you make an interesting point. How many "people" have died in the first two PT movies?

    AOTC - Corde, Zam, Jango and several Jedi we've never seen before. (am I missing anyone?)

    TPM - Qui-Gon, Maul, a few random Naboo fighters (anyone else).

    Most of the action is against droids or CG creations with little or no personality. It's a bit distancing. Having stunts like Anakin falling hundreds of feet and grabbing onto a speeding vehicle do nothing to increase the danger level. (Interesting how I was far more impressed and caught up in the action in the arena than the "dramatic" super-Jedi powers used during the Coruscant chase.)

    Or is my blatant nostalgia clouding my mind? :)
  4. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    yes...i've thought about this exact same thing. it seems like its going to be emotionally hollow, if the only things that are suffering and dying are clones and robots, and no real humans. most wars are considered tragedies because of the toll in human life...and are considered horrific for the pains that humans must endure to fight them. also, you dont really have the nobility of a human laying down his life or suffering terrible atrocities to defend his beliefs or country. how can there be emotional impact in this?

    But the Clone Wars were manufactured to solidify Palpatine's power and to wipe out the Jedi. I seem to remember quite a few dead Jedi in the midst of the opening battle of the Clone Wars... That seems like a toll on "human" life and a terrible atrocity to me.

  5. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    "But the Clone Wars were manufactured to solidify Palpatine's power and to wipe out the Jedi. I seem to remember quite a few dead Jedi in the midst of the opening battle of the Clone Wars... That seems like a toll on "human" life and a terrible atrocity to me."

    a few jedi does not make a horrific toll on life. yes, some jedi died, but i dont think you cant point to this and say therefore both the armies are invested with the full impact of millions of people fighting and dying for their cause. no, a few jedi does not constitute the full scale suffering in war...and besides, that was jsut one battle. presumably, most of the battles arent going to take place like that one. would world war 2 have been considered as much a tragedy if just a few people had died?? besides, its not the issue of whether a few people actually did die....its the concept at large that we're talking about of a war fought predominantly by beings who are not driven by passion for their cause, but by programming. there is no emotional investment.
  6. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    So what are you saying with all this then? That the Clone Wars are lame?

  7. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
    I Think they are a bit. :)
    Like you said this "virtual war" is designed purely to extinguish the Jedi. The Republic citizens don't have to fight the war, so it's only the Jedi who are the real casualties, but I'm not going to feel for the Jedi (except perhaps Anakin who is the only Jedi that the average man on the street can identify with) because they are these fearless zen warriors who aren't really bothered about death. The Clone Wars are going to be slightly hollow emotionally. I mean even ROTJ had the Ewok death scene, that traumatised me as a child. :)
  8. LemmeSeeYaIYiYi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    Yeah, you're kind of missing a biggie:

    Shmi.
  9. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Oh yeah, Shmi. :p Need I point out that the most powerful death emotionally is from a human character we actually care about? :)
  10. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
    Yeah well Shmi's Death scene was awesome. But we were just talking about the actual Clone War. There have been many touching death scenes in both the originals and the prequels. But the Clone War may end up having all the emotional impact of a video game, just because of it's droid/clone/jedi combattants. That was all I was saying. :)
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    And who's to say the all of the clone wars will be fought this way? Perhaps the Separatists will be forced to stop using droids due to resources and start using real conscripts from the Separatist worlds.

    All we saw was the opening battle. One battle does not a war make.
  12. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    "One battle does not a war make."

    Let us hope George feels the same way you do.
  13. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
  14. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Well, according to Lucas, we will see the end of the Clone Wars at the beginning of Episode 3.
  15. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    So, basically, almost all of the clone wars are going to take place offscreen?

    There's only one smiley for that news: [face_plain]
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    But Elfstar, why have every thing great happen on-screen? What will the EU cover? :p

    Seriously, you don't want to overdo it by having battle after battle. Still, I think he should've had the Clone Wars start in Ep. 1, then middle in 2, and end in 3.
  17. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    No, that's a smart choice. We get one huge battle at the end of AOTC, and one huge battle at the beginning of Episode III (I'm guessing). Do we really need to see any more of the Clone Wars? There is far too much stuff to cover in the next Episode to waste more than 20 minutes or so on big battles (cool though they are to watch).
  18. funky-gonk-droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2002
    star 1
    Hopefully the end of the Clone Wars will take up the whole of the first act of Episode 3. They could show quite a lot in 30-40 minutes of compressed action. Then they can get on with the real meaty stuff. Just because the latter half is going to be more personal doesn't mean it won't be explosive.
  19. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    I see a pattern developing ...

    First skirmish that starts clone wars: on screen.
    The Clone Wars: off screen.
    Mop-up battle that ends the Clone Wars: on screen.

    Anakin accepted to become a Jedi: on screen.
    Anakin training to become a Jedi, which is 10 years long and is, according to the OT, THE reason he falls: off screen.
    The tail-end of Anakin's training, which doesn't actually involve any real training, at least not in the same way that ESB showed Luke training: on screen.

    Start of Anakin's involvement in Jedi Purge: (maybe) on screen.
    Bulk of Anakin's involvement in Jedi Purge: off screen.
  20. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with ShaneP (big surprise) ;)

    The clone wars should have started in Ep. I. Having the clone wars last throughout the PT would be no differant than having the rebels battle the Empire throughout the OT
  21. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Homer, I'm not arguing that the Clone Wars ending at the start of 3 isn't a smart choice. I think it is.

    But, it should have been a spread out conflict over a decade, hence the plural "warS". It would be like the World Wars, the Indian Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, and every other conflict spread out over years.


    Great point Bud. Of course, we always have the outstanding EU to fill in those dramatic gaps. [face_plain]

    EDIT: Oh wait, it isn't dramatic unless Lucas says so right? Of course, he DID say so, but that was 20+ years ago, and that's not the way he feels now.

    It's pretty damn sad the guy spends more time being consistent with the EU than he does with the OT. :(
  22. Lightsabel2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    I believe Ep III will gross the most out of the PT, its going to be so good. :)
  23. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Bud, the reason most of that stuff you mention happens off screen is because montage sequences have never been used in a Star Wars film. How would you cover ten years of war, or ten years of Anakin's training, in one film?
    The reason I don't think we need to see any more than two battles from the Clone Wars is because we only saw three battles from the civil war in the OT, and that was a much bigger conflict. Some things can be left to the imagination.
  24. Ulaleros Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2001
    star 2
    a movie about the clone wars wouldnt have to be just battles. i mean, the whole story of the ot is kind of a war isnt? but its not just battles...just because the war would be the backdrop of the story, doesnt mean it would have to be battles all the time. the rebellion is going on during the whole ot, but we dont see carnage and battle, it is just referenced, like the bothan spies stealing the death star plans. the war could be going on, and the battles referenced or implied, while lucas actually shows other things. the whole war doesnt have to take place in between the movies, it could be the BACKDROP.
  25. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    LISTEN, HYPE OR NO HYPE, YOU CANNOT MAKE $470 MILLION UNLESS A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SEEING YOUR MOVIE AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!
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