main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT How the rule of two redeemed the Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Cat_of_Palpatine, Dec 29, 2016.

  1. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    I was taking your theory that the rule of 2 redeems the OT and suggesting that if Vader knew about the rule of 2, (surely he must have done from Jedi teachings surely and also having witnessed Palpatine betray Dooku), that at some point Vader would have been in that situation too. Which if so makes him a fool for not realising it.

    You are right the OT was marketed as being about Luke until the PT was made, but I always had in my mind a clear idea of what Vaders motivations were. I always thought Vader was too far gone to actually go against his master, granted I may not have been 100% correct on that due to the one liner in the novelisation, because after Vader blocks Luke it seems he's biding his time to over throw the Empreror. But fundamentally it comes down to the Emperor betraying Vader.

    If you apply the rule of 2 then you can say it fits with the Emperor, he was doing what he did with Dooku, but then at the same it doesn't fit with Vader as it makes him look stupid for not realising it was coming. But the films are fine if you watch them as standalone and never watched the PT, it doesn't need the rule of 2 to make it feel better or to redeem it IMO
     
    KaleeshEyes and DarthCricketer like this.
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    How is there any confusion here if Vader wanted to betray the Emperor? He literally tells Luke that together they can rule the galaxy as father and son. I don't think that happy family includes grandpa Palpatine.
     
    oncafar likes this.
  3. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    Possibly because he doesn't go through with it in the throne room. It's only when you read the novelisation that you realise he doesn't feel Luke is ready yet.
     
  4. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    AndyLGR I've always interpreted it as: he didn't go through with it because Luke hasn't turned to the dark side yet. He could have let Luke kill Palpatine yes, but if Luke doesn't fully turn then he's screwed after that. Basically he needs Luke to fully become his apprentice before allowing Palpatine to be eliminated.
     
    Tosche_Station and AndyLGR like this.
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    It took thirteen years because Palpatine let Obi-wan train Anakin. He didn't have the time to do it himself.


    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    The plan is already in motion when Obi-wan bi-sects Maul. He doesn't have time to turn Anakin, so he goes ahead and let Obi-wan do the heavy work and then he swoops in and takes the reward. Jedi cannot just be turned willy-nilly. There has to be a weakness that makes it possible to exploit. Anakin's was his attachment and his anger. When he killed the Tusken Raiders and then told Palpatine this, he showed a willingness to turn to the dark side. That's why he kept putting Dooku against Anakin, in order to spur the latter to action. Anakin didn't look at himself the way Luke did, when he became a Jedi. He faltered and Luke held firm and because Luke held firm, he could not be turned.
     
  6. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    The way I saw it, Vader and Sidious didn't have a "bond." Palpatine groomed and manipulated Anakin to engineer him for the Dark Side. Anakin had no idea that he would lose everything but Sidious would know better. Generally when someone turns they kill everyone they ever cared about (Anakin didn't know that). You can't both be on the Dark Side of the Force and keep relationships that were based in love. I suspect that Vader realized he had been duped quite soon after the turn (as he processed everything he had lost--the one person he was trying to save/keep as well as like half his body). He would then of course realize that Palpatine had never cared about him, and only meant to use him as a tool just as he uses everyone else. The only thing that matters to a Sith is power, as Vader would soon learn for himself. By the time of the OT I'm sure Vader knew he wanted to kill the Emperor--or rather he is past that since he wanted it earlier in life and now it doesn't seem possible. Because he is a slave. And it's sad because he spent his entire life a slave basically (there is always some power, be it Watto, the Jedi or Palpatine, that he has to answer to).

    Luke presented him with an opportunity. The Emperor was worried about Luke. "He could destroy us," he told Vader. The scene in ESB is interesting because it's the Emperor informing Vader that there is a disturbance in the Force and that it's Luke, but Vader at this point already knows and has kept this information from the Emperor. As soon as he learned that Luke existed it changed everything. He had believed he'd killed his wife and his unborn child, but now he knows the original atrocity was not as terrible--his son had survived. This will change how he perceives himself, and invite back some hope that maybe he can turn it around; that maybe something "good" can come out of the tragedy that has been his life. But that is only one part of it and since Vader doesn't see himself as being conflicted in RoTJ when Luke tells him (he thinks Luke is wrong), it means this aspect of things is not at the surface of his awareness.

    Instead Vader realizes that there is a possibility that Luke could be his key to overthrowing the Emperor and ruling the galaxy the way he wants to rule it (not the way the Emperor rules it). I think that Vader and the Emperor have very different visions for the galaxy, though both visions will end up looking really similar on the outside. The Emperor I don't believe cares about "peace" or whatever. He only cares about having absolute power over all. Vader on the other hand has long had his vision of order in the galaxy, forced upon the masses by an all-powerful authority (just he'd really like it his way not Sidious's way). He actually still has some sense that he is doing "the right (necessary) thing," which he wouldn't be concerned with at all were he entirely evil. I am not sure what would have happened if he had gotten what he wanted in this because the greater taste of power probably would have driven him deeper into the Dark (he would want more). Fortunately for him fate won't let him have what he wants (he's blocked by the Emperor on one side and Luke on the other); but that he can never have what he wants is of course also what has been so unfortunate for him. He wanted to rule the galaxy with someone else (with an equal more or less); not with the Emperor who hates him (as he hates everyone). It's just he had given up. Luke gives him hope (but hope is something from the Light).

    I think that Vader is aware that when he suggests making Luke their ally that Sidious will prefer to replace him with Luke. As for why he has delayed, it is in the conflict between what he feels for Luke as his son and his desire to overthrow the Emperor. But once Sidious knows about Luke, Vader goes back to following his master (since he is a slave). It's just that when he meets Luke, not only does he realize that Luke is powerful, but some sort of alien feeling wars with him. He ends up practically begging Luke to join him and it's not just because it's his way to power. Feeling for Luke is already evident. Luke told Vader later that he couldn't kill him on Bespin because of the good in him and Luke (imo) is right. It gets even "worse" in RoTJ when it's clear that Luke also cares about Vader. Vader is shocked to hear from the Emperor that Luke will come to him because of his compassion for him ("He will come to me?" he says with uncertainty). When is the last time anyone ever cared about Darth Vader? I think that love from Luke hits him way more deeply than he knew at first.

    In the scene at the end of RoTJ, it's not only Luke who realizes the game he's really playing but also Vader. Luke realizes that any time he gives into hatred (such as when he used it to defeat Vader after Vader threatened his sister) he is going towards the Dark Side. Vader however realizes that everything he has been doing since he realized Luke was his son has been trying to save him (Luke represents the Light in him; he is also trying to save himself). And why should he chose the Emperor (someone who hates him and has done nothing but betray him again and again) over someone who loves him. It's not that Vader's conflict had ended before the Emperor begins electrocuting Luke (he did after all bring Luke to his Master and he obeyed and defended his Master like the servant he is) even though I don't think Vader was willing to kill Luke (I think he would rather Luke win). But that in the end he is forced to chose one or the other, and so he has no choice but to resolve the conflict inside him (a decision must be made). That's when he finally realizes that Luke was right.

    In terms of the Rule of Two, I don't think Sidious cares that much about it. He's not Darth Bane lol. In Eps 1-3 (the horrors) he is willing to use other "darksiders" like Dooku (it hurts to type that name) or Maul and he does seem to only have one at a time (aside from... Grievous) but I'm sure it's just that he'll use whatever tools are in the shed and there weren't that many of them. There are more in the EU. I think Sidious abides more by the "rule of one." There is only him and his power.

    Really that Vader suggests making Luke an ally probably already introduces some suspicion. Vader has been off his game and not that long ago he cost the Emperor the Death Star. Now he's saying sappy things like, "He is only a boy. Obi Wan can no longer help him." Sidious probably takes this as either Vader will remain his servant and tool, or he'll be too weak and fall to Luke. Either way, Sidious will get the stronger of the two. Sidious wanted a servant but I think he also despises Vader for being so pathetic. He would have gained as much pleasure from watching Luke kill Vader as he would from killing Luke (or watching Vader kill Luke). I think Sidious delights especially in the breaking of ties of love (he hates the Light after all). He seemed to enjoy it ever so much when Anakin learned Padme was dead.

    Vader knows Sidious and he knows what he will do. So I don't think that Vader went into this with any illusions about his master. He has understood for a very long time.
     
  7. Cat_of_Palpatine

    Cat_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Dear AndyLGR! I’m terribly sorry to say it, but have you actually read the post you are commenting on? Vader perfectly realized what was coming. I’ll just quote myself: As his suspicion was confirmed by the Emperor in Episode V, Vader struck a deal with his master: he will help convert Luke to the Dark Side and die freeing his place at Palpatine’s side to his offspring.

    Let me repeat it:
    - And die freeing his place at Palpatine’s side to his offspring…
    - And die freeing his place at Palpatine’s side to his offspring…
    - And die freeing his place at Palpatine’s side to his offspring…
    - And die
    - …die

    If we adopt the Rule of two concept, Vader knew that he was going to die and voluntarily agreed to die in order to free his place to his son.

    P.S. I have not read the post by oncafar yet.
     
  8. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    Of course I read you post. Is this your theory, because I don't believe Vader went in to the throne either intending to or thinking that he was about to die.
     
    KaleeshEyes and DarthCricketer like this.
  9. Cat_of_Palpatine

    Cat_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2016
    I’ll repeat what you’ve just said: If you apply the rule of 2… it doesn't fit with Vader as it makes him look stupid.
    You’ve just claimed that the Rule of two makes Vader stupid. It does not, and I’ve explained why. It’s your right not to agree with what I’ve said, but my theory is free from contradictions.
     
  10. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    Unless I'm mistaken you think Vader looks a fool in the OT but the rule of 2 added in the PT redeems it and removes any controversy.

    I'm suggesting that if you look at it another way, you could argue the addition of the rule of 2 makes Vader look a fool because he should have seen what was coming from the Emperor ...... betrayal. But my whole point is that even if the rule of 2 never existed then the OT is perfectly fine as it stands, it never needed any 'redemption'.

    Debate over then
     
    KaleeshEyes and DarthCricketer like this.
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader isn't surprised by the idea of being betrayed by Palpatine, especially taking into account what happened to the last guy in this position. That's why he keeps on Luke, so that he can be bent towards his will. Note that while Luke is being tortured, he gets up and stands beside Palpatine. Even taking the Rule of Two into account, Vader still sides with the man who demanded that Luke kill him.
     
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Hard to tell whether or not something can really be done if you only try for a few minutes. Seems more like he was pissed off since he's not used to someone saying no to him, and he decided to give up since there was nothing tangible to gain by turning Luke anyways.
     
  13. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I also thought it was strange how the Emperor (especially given how much time he put into turning Anakin) thinks Luke can be turned in a single duel. But I also recall that his initial plan was just to kill Luke. He decided to accept Vader's alternative and meet Luke himself but after watching everything play out I think he determined that he wouldn't be able to turn Luke (it was too late). Luke unlike Anakin comes from a stable foundation. He was loved and kept secure as a child. Obi-Wan was also there for him, always watching even if rarely present. I honestly think the two of them would have had a better chance of turning Leia, which reminds me, the Emperor knows that Luke is not his only option at the point he decides to kill him (there is another).

    Also, re-reading my previous post I kind of want to back up from saying that Vader and Sidious have no bond at all. I think they do have one in that Vader is Sidious's protector and enforcer. Sidious has been kind of the main outlet for anything left of Anakin that still wants to save and protect the weak (he's always taken on the role of protecting someone he perceives as wise). I feel like Sidious set the relationship up this way on purpose (like how in Ep. III he's acting all helpless needing big strong Anakin to save him from Dooku; he does it again with Mace). And I think Vader has some slight feeling there, but I feel like by the OT there is far more hate and resentment towards his master than anything else, though Vader respects the Emperor and his power and is subservient to him. And Sidious has familiarity and his generally loyal guard dog at his side, which perhaps he gets something almost lukewarm from that (but he of course can only hate Vader primarily since that's his nature). So anyway they have basically the Sith bond of master/apprentice where they use one another mutually and power dynamics keep them from killing one another. I do think though that Vader still feels some sense of loyalty to his master, but really it's just he needs to express the little good inside him in some way though it will not be reciprocated. I would also add that the more Anakin emerges in him the more a different opinion of the Emperor would arise in his mind--Anakin would ask for justice.

    Oh and the other aspect of their bond would be that Sidious has been there to help Vader at times when he was in trouble, and since Vader's heart isn't entirely cold that would impact him too. Trauma bonding?

    But despite all of this it's clear he would overthrow the Emperor in a heartbeat if he could.

    The only other thing I wanted to slightly take back is my statement that Vader isn't willing to kill Luke. That suggests he's already made his decision, which he hasn't. Vader discovers he's unwilling to kill Luke at the end. Up until then he would simply prefer that Luke replace him if they can't overthrow the Emperor together (which I think he's already given up on that). It's the best outcome he can find.

    I really like that he didn't make the same mistake twice. He wanted to rule the galaxy with Padme, but they would be on the Dark Side. He also wants to rule the galaxy with Luke on the Dark Side. In both cases his companions can't or won't be with him on the Dark Side. He has to let go of that if he wants to keep Luke. This is something Anakin failed to do. Now he finally understands.

    Even though he's risked his life numerous times as Anakin to save others, the acts were not really selfless because that was the role he liked to play anyway. Sacrificing his want of power for love, however, is huge. He tried to urge Luke to give himself to the Dark Side; only to find that he's the one who has to give himself.
     
    KingKenobi likes this.
  14. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    It's only strange when watched chronologically. The PT and the turning of Anakin didn't exist when the OT was made. Again it's something that makes no sense because of the events in the PT.
     
    KaleeshEyes and DarthCricketer like this.
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Luke rejected Vader on Cloud City, which is why Palpatine got involved. And the fact that he kept refusing is why he decided to kill Luke. At some point, you have to cut your losses.


    Not really, if Luke had killed in anger and hate, then the Sith would have an easier time of it. Notice that Yoda and Obi-wan don't become angry enough to use the dark side to try and kill the Sith. If a Jedi rejects the dark side and acknowledges their own inner failings, it won't matter how hard they try. Luke rejects the dark side and won't kill for his sister, to stop Palpatine or out of revenge for what his father did. There's not much else that will turn him.
     
  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    For most people that "point" is after having tried vigorously for years and years. E.g. A student flunking out of college, an amateur athlete trying to make the pros or heck even asking a girl you like out.
     
  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    However the problem here is this makes Vader and possibly the Sith in general, very SELFLESS.
    Vader is apparently willing to die because this rule says he should.
    "Oh the rule of two says I must lay down my life just so my master can get a new apprentice."
    "Better go and fall on my lightsaber then."

    The sith are consistently shown as selfish, taking power for themselves and serving their own ends.
    But here they are totally selfless and don't care about themselves at all.

    So I don't think your idea fits Vader in the OT nor do I think it redeems the OT in any way.

    What do I think?
    If you look at Vader in the three OT films, you might notice that when he is close to the emperor he is a lot less forceful and commanding. And more meek and subservient.
    Yes I do think that Luke's refusal to turn in ESB did cause Vader to reconsider his life and the choices he had made. But there is more.

    Another reason for this, to me, is Palpatine's power over him.
    In RotJ Vader says directly "I MUST obey my Master!"
    He has to do what Palpatine tells him to do, he can not refuse.
    This power is what I believe Yoda was warning Luke about ;
    This power, as I saw it, is both the reason why Vader is so changed in RotJ, the emperor is close by and has a hold over him. And why Luke would have become Palpatine's servant if he had given into his hate and killed Vader.
    Palpatine, being a master of the dark side, can use another persons anger or hate against them if they give into the dark side of the Force. And he can bend them to his will.
    Luke would have no reason to join Palpatine and would hate his guts after he made him kill his father.
    But that would apparently not matter and Luke would take Vader's place at Palpatine's side.
    And the reason that Palpatine could use Luke's hate and anger and the dark side swelling in him and bend Luke to his will and make him obey him.

    What about ESB? Did Vader mean what he said about them ruling the galaxy together?
    Possibly and there Palpatine was far away so Vader could act more as he saw fit.
    And he figured that if he turned Luke and the both of them went against Papatine, Palpatine could not use his power to command on both of them and they could beat him.

    But in RotJ, on Endor I think Vader assumes that this can only end in one of two ways.
    Either Luke turns and kills Vader or Luke won't turn and Vader kills him.
    Either way, not something he wants and this is why he seems rather down when Luke leaves.
    He knows he is trapped and he regrets what is coming but he thinks he has no choice.
    But he did, by letting go of his hate and the power of the dark side, Palpatine no longer has any control of him and he throws him down the shaft.

    You might say that this is not so different to what you argue.
    To me the difference is that Vader is forced to go along with something he does not want to do but feels he can't disobey. As opposed to him willingly doing something because of he is being selfless and obeys sith dogma.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  18. Cat_of_Palpatine

    Cat_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Exactly! I’ve even wanted to type it in capital letters. As stated earlier, one of the troubles with the Classic Trilogy is the swiftness of Vader’s defection. I wrote above that it’s really hard to find an example of an instant conversion from the “Dark Side” (or its real-world parallels) in literature. It’s only in Bible that Saul becomes Paul in a moment.

    The selflessness you are talking about is extremely useful, for it makes us realize that the mechanism of stimuli which would finely lead to Vader’s conversion was launched the very moment he understood that Luke was his son. Just as you say: Vader was a perfect Sith, but on the other hand he adopted an attitude that was at odds his Dark Side ways.

    Vader’s conduct in the Classic Trilogy mirrors that of Anakin in the Prequels. Anakin was a perfect Jedi, but developed an attachment to Padme. This attachment will prevail over his Jedi commitment and will lead to his downfall. By the same token Vader was a Sith par excellence, but had feelings toward Luke which would make him abandon the Dark Side.
    The Star Wars are actually the story of love. Sensual love leads Anakin astray, but fatherly love later redeems him.

    As to your interpretation of the plot, I like it. In my view it does make sense and explains the majority of things done or said by the characters in the Classic Trilogy. The way you put it, the Original Trilogy really needs no redemption. However, there is an important point.
    Let us see how you describe Vader’s psychological mechanics: by letting go of his hate and the power of the dark side, Palpatine no longer has any control of him.
    The way you put it, the Saga looks extremely Zen-like. Vader overcomes his anger and triumphs. With the Rule of two the Star Wars become more Western, since it is love that helps the protagonist to defeat the odds. George Lucas was talking about a Greek tragedy. Remember?

    Samuel Vimes: In RotJ Vader says directly "I MUST obey my Master!"

    That's a flaw in my theory. I can say that Vader was lying because he could not tell Luke that he was going to die by his hand.

    However I’ve got a quote in favor of my interpretation, too. Let us go back to Episode V.
    Emperor: Yes... He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

    Palpatine was more proficient with the Force than Vader. So what was the point of asking an underling if it was possible to convert Luke? Darth Sidious was supposed to know it better. The answer becomes obvious once we assume that the Emperor wanted to make sure that his disciple was serious about dying in favor of his son.
     
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  19. Cat_of_Palpatine

    Cat_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2016
    To oncafar.
    Thank you for your posts. I’ve read both of them. I need more time to formulate my reply, but I would like to quote some observations of yours by which I've been impressed.

    1. And it's sad because he spent his entire life a slave basically (there is always some power, be it Watto, the Jedi or Palpatine, that he has to answer to).
    2. When is the last time anyone ever cared about Darth Vader?
    3. Vader however realizes that everything he has been doing since he realized Luke was his son has been trying to save him
    4. Sidious wanted a servant but I think he also despises Vader for being so pathetic.
    5. But I also recall that his initial plan was just to kill Luke. He decided to accept Vader's alternative and meet Luke himself but after watching everything play out I think he determined that he wouldn't be able to turn Luke (it was too late).
    6. Sacrificing his want of power for love, however, is huge. He tried to urge Luke to give himself to the Dark Side; only to find that he's the one who has to give himself
    7. Sidious has been kind of the main outlet for anything left of Anakin that still wants to save and protect the weak
     
    oncafar likes this.
  20. Cat_of_Palpatine

    Cat_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Sorry, an error.
     
  21. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I don't see a problem with a swift defection since the OT also pretty much set up that a turn to the dark side is also very swift.
    All it takes is one very evil action and you turn.
    See Luke in RotJ.
    The dark side, as presented in the OT, is something seductive and gives you quick power but at a cost.
    You partly loose yourself and becomes an agent of evil.
    You can not use the power of the dark side without it also using you.

    This makes it hard for the Jedi as they have to keep calm and never give in to anger or aggression when they are fighting someone.
    So if they fight a sith, the sith will be goading them to get angry and strike them down but the Jedi must never give in to that because then they will loose.

    Plus it's corrupting influence and the more you use it the more you good qualities are drowned by a sea of bile and hatred eats away at your compassion and humanity.
    In the end you find yourself doing things you would have been horrified at earlier.

    The key in all this are the emotions that are part of the dark side, fear, anger and hate.
    As long as you cling to those feelings, you can not break free of your prison.
    Letting go of that is vital to break your own chains and escape from the prison that you made for yourself.

    In any event, I fail to see how the Sith, being all about serving their own ends and wanting power for themselves, would also be so totally selfless and fine with laying down their lives for someone else.

    Nobility and self-sacrifice are not things I associate with the sith.

    The rule of two, from what I know, was just a way to cut down on the destructive nature of the sith.
    That they constantly stabbed each other in the back and they always fought among themselves.
    So to stop this and make sure that they survive, this rule came about.
    With only two siths, this infighting was reduced.

    But if the sith are so selfless that they are willing to lay down their lives just because a rule says so then they would not need such a rule and they would be able to work together quite well. Even in large numbers.



    Ehhh I wouldn't call PT Anakin a perfect Jedi.
    He has loads of issues even if we don't consider Padme.
    He fears loss and has great difficulty letting go of things.
    He also has a considerable temper problem plus he is arrogant and a show off.

    As for his feelings towards Padme, I doubt this was the intention but I got more a sense of obsession about Padme than actual love. He has spent ten years thinking about this girl he met just for a few days when he was nine. That is not healthy.
    To me, Anakin wants to posses Padme and this is why he goes to extreme length to keep her alive.
    He does not want to loose her so he does things that he should know would horrify her.
    So it is about his feelings and less about hers.



    I think that love plays a big part even in my interpretation.
    Luke cares for his father, despite everything and Vader can see this.
    He sees a son that should hate him for all that he has done but Luke does not.
    Luke has faith in him that not even Yoda and Obi-Wan has.

    Luke also shows by example that the dark side can be defeated.
    Luke refuses to turn and shows his father that he can reject the dark side as well.

    Vader has feelings for his son, he is able to hurt him and he wants to use him but he still prefers not to kill him. In RotJ those feelings have grown stronger and Vader really does not want to kill or turn his son but he thinks he has no choice but to obey.
    So him letting go of his hate and breaking his chains is partly aided by the love he has for his son.
    He turns back in order to stop the emperor killing his son.
    Had it been some random guy there, then I think that Vader might not have turned back.

    So love is partly what motivates Vader to turn back but letting go of his hate is required or else he would not be able to do this. Killing the emperor out of hate either would not work or if it did, Vader would not have turned back. Instead Vader let go of his hate and killed Palpatine to save his son.

    Also, in what way does love figure into the rule of two?
    The rule of two only says that there can not ever be more than two siths.
    If there are three, then one must die.



    I don't think so, in this scene Vader is quite honest. He is forced to look at his past choices and what they have led to. And he seems less than happy about the situation.
    He turns away from Luke and when Luke says "Come with me" his response is a bit sad.
    "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."
    "You don't know the POWER of the Dark Side, I MUST obey my Master"

    Why would he lie?
    And Luke directly says after this that he will not turn and Vader will be forced to kill him, which Vader doesn't deny.
    And when Luke says "Then my father really is dead." Vader seems almost hurt by it.


    [/QUOTE]

    I don't agree.
    The emperor contacts Vader because he is able to sense Luke causing a "great disturbance in the Force". So not only can Palpatine and Vader sense Luke from light years away, Luke is also apparently doing it all on his own. Plus Palpatine says that the Force is strong with Luke.
    Vader says that Obi-Wan can no longer help him and neither mentions Yoda so they probably think he is dead.
    So Luke is doing all this without anyone to guide or help him.

    So Palpatine tells Vader that Luke is a threat and must be dealt with but Vader tries to deflect this, saying that Luke is just a boy and suggest turning him instead.
    Given how it was I do think the intent was that the emperor's first impulse was to kill Luke.
    But after Vader's suggestion, he thought about and approved.
    As for his question, he knows that Luke is Vader's son so he could be probing Vader a little and asking if Vader is up to either kill or turn his own son.
    Plus there is the issue of getting to Luke BEFORE he becomes a full Jedi as Palpatine says that Luke must NOT become a Jedi.
    They can sense him but have no idea where he is and so he is asking Vader if he has a plan to draw Luke out.
    Which Vader does, this is why he is after the MF. He knows that Luke has people that he cares about on that ship and if Vader hurts them, Luke will sense it and come to him.

    To sum up, to me the rule of two makes Dooku look like a fool in RotS.
    And makes Vader look equally foolish and it makes the conversation between Vader and Palpatine in ESB all sorts of odd.
    They are in effect declaring war on each other and both know it.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  22. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Samuel Vimes - I like the way you are putting all of this better than my posts. <3
     
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  23. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    The Supreme Chancellor wrote

    How is there any confusion here if Vader wanted to betray the Emperor? He literally tells Luke that together they can rule the galaxy as father and son. I don't think that happy family includes grandpa Palpatine.

    Obviously Vader had a profound change of mind between ESB and ROJ.

    Because, had he really wanted to get rid of Palpatine, all he had to do in ROJ was not to deflect Luke's lightsaber blow coming down on the Emperor...
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    But Luke wasn't ready to turn. That's why he blocked the blow. He has to be pressured into wanting to accept the dark side. Just killing alone isn't enough. When Dooku fell, he wanted to become a Sith and was willing to kill Sifo-Dyas in order to do so. Once he proved himself, he submitted. When Anakin killed the Tusken Raiders, it wasn't enough. He had to want the dark side power and he had to be given a reason to abandon the Jedi teachings and principles. With Luke, he hasn't done either yet. He's not ready. He can still walk away from what he did, without turning. That's why Vader blocks the blow. He needs more prompting.
     
  25. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    darth-sinister

    That's a possible rationalization (i.e. they both needed to turn Luke, Vader could not have done that alone), but the obvious thing remaining is that had Vader seriously considered to get rid of Palpatine (and then bring peace and order to the galaxy together with his son) he really forfeited a golden opportunity to do so during this particular moment.

    And considering that a Jedi never uses his lightsaber for attack but only for defense, Vader acted rather Jedi-sh in that particular moment. ;)