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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

How to Fix a Sinking Political Party (or how to save the Democrat Party)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TripleB, Nov 4, 2004.

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  1. Crix-Madine

    Crix-Madine Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Ah yes Darth_OlsenTwins, a stroke of genius you have there for a post.

    Now tell us about George W. Bush and how he's a mans man. A real cowboy who grew up in Texas, worked his way through school, held a strong job and moved up in the business ranks.

    The good ole' boy himself. [face_laugh]
     
  2. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Yes the ones who want to ban the crosses are the fringe of the Party not the main stream and really are no different than those Republicans who want to put the cross everywhere. The biggest difference is the left fringe is doing the better job.
     
  3. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    TripleB, I was surprised you also saw Mike Easley as a good candidate for the Democrats. Although he isn't a traditional 'liberal', he has one of the best chances for winning the election. What the Democrats need is a semi-moderate democrat governor from the south/mid-west. Another one is Bob Holden, the Governor of Missouri. I see it the major contenders being Mike Easley, Bob Holden, Hillary Clinton, Ed Rendell, and John Edwards. Assuming, they all run. John Edwards just needs to hold a position until 2008 to further his experience. Barack Obama will be an idiot to run, four years in the Senate is not enough experience to be president (I don't think vice president either). For the Republicans, I see John McCain, Rudy Guliani, Jeb Bush, Bill Frist, and Tom Ridge all being contenders for president.
     
  4. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    But Bush's fear mongering was too powerful. The lesson for democrats is, more than half the people will respond to piousness and fear mongering.

    Draft - January Surprise - Suppresion of black vote

    Please give me at least three lies that Bush ogave to America to counterbalance thes eby Kerry.


    George Bush used the draft to scare voters to his side, too, so I don't want to hear that at all.

    George Bush said that John Kerry could not protect America from another terrorist attack, George Bush said that John Kerry will raise the taxes on everyone, and that John Kerry is the one that will re-institute the draft.
     
  5. Darth_OlsenTwins

    Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Why do you not put Bush under the same microscope? Seriously, is it his accent? Is it his wild claims? I think you just don't like what Kerry was selling, regardless of how he was selling it.

    First off, I think George W Bush was a terrible candidate for president. I voted for him in 2000 and when he abondoned his supposed ideals of fiscal responsibility and military competence, I voted Libertarian in 2004.

    And the fact that George Bush has had a mediocre presidency, at best, yet still more people voted for him than voted for John Kerry. And since I know you agree with the quality of his presidnecy, that should tell you something about your own candidate.

    Its not about a person like me buying it, the average joe didn't buy it. "Anybody but Bush" simply didn't work, because Kerry never sold himself.

    Ah yes Darth_OlsenTwins, a stroke of genius you have there for a post.

    Now tell us about George W. Bush and how he's a mans man. A real cowboy who grew up in Texas, worked his way through school, held a strong job and moved up in the business ranks.

    The good ole' boy himself.


    First off, its just my opinion and the way I see things.

    Secondly, Bush wasn't trying to sell himself successfully to the middle and working class simply by claiming he was a champion of the working and middle class. Kerry was, and he failed at it.

    And I can even admit that the liberal message appeals to more people than the conservative message. yet Kerry still lost.

    Blame it on the Republican war machine (which works quite well). Its still going to lose the Dems campaigns if they present candidates that have little appeal and can basically be summarized as "he'll do".

    I realize that you were passionate about this election and this candidate, Crix, and my intention is not to offend you. But you have to look at the reality of the situation that John Kerry was a poor candidate.

    And again, that doesn't mean I think GWB is a great candidate because I don't. It would also be good to recognize, that while GWB may not be the smartest crayon in the presidential box, he does know how to appeal to people on a personal, broad level. Kerry could never get past that hump.

    It would also be nice if you could dispute the points I made rather than make fun of the candidate that I didn't even vote for.
     
  6. TripleB

    TripleB Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2000
    Fine then, people. Ignore my constructive advice.

    Heed this then, coming from a Right Wing Conservitive.


    1) Please Nominate Hillary to be your presidential candidate in 2008.

    2) Please put your San Fransisco and New England liberals up in all positions of power in the House and Senate.

    3) Please keep Ted Kennedy and as many "Elitist" on the Judiciary comittee.

    4) Please keep what Southerners and Midwestern Democrats you have left off the Judiciary.

     
  7. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    TripleB,

    :D I want to add some too:

    - Please continue to hire fleets of lawyers to harrass the american people into whatever position it is you want to advance today.

    - Please continue to insult the american people if they don't promote or uphold the liberal agenda across the board.

    - Please continue to insist that your platform is in no way the equivalent of a set of moral values (defined as a religion in the dictionary) that at least half of america disagrees with.

    - Please continue to be clueless why at least half of middle, southern, western and northern americans disagree with you.
     
  8. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    My Turn

    -Please continue to show America how you undermine the Military.

    -Please keep Appeasement and Blaming America first the mainstay of your Foreign Policy.

    -Please keep thinking that Mainstream Media is equilivant to Mainstream America.

    :)

    -Oh yeah- Please keep quoting Michael Moore.
     
  9. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    Qui-Rune,

    That addendum was my favorite. I actually like Michael Moore and think he has some good points to make, but that farenheit 9-11 thing was ...was...
     
  10. lordmaul13

    lordmaul13 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    Here I sit, a professional lurker, trying to be open minded and expand my horizons by reading a thread filled with post from people with different opinions than mine. When what should my wondering eyes discover but a post! A post worthy of a reply. Perhaps.

    appleseed

    This point:

    The fact is that there are two Americas.

    and this point:

    These two Americas have entirely different values and priorities.

    I can probably agree with you on and I have little quarell with.

    It's this point (if one can really dignify that sentence with that term) that rather ****ed me off:

    To me it's a shame that a great legitimate state like New York has to foot the bill so that Jim Bob sitting on the steps of his trailer in Georgia, picking his tooth while reflecting on how much he hates blacks and gays (while calling himself a Christian)-but there's no easy solution for that problem.

    All those people in the not so great illegitimate red states like Georgia, just to pick one at sort of random, who voted in a manner not to your liking aren't people with opinions worthy of being heard and worthy of respect. No, those people are merely unintelligent, ignorant, backwoods trailer trash, racist homophobes only worthy of contemplation because there are 59,000,000 of them.

    In another thread over in the JC Community I saw someone define liberal as open mindedness and a willingness to change. The latter you may be. The former? Looks in doubt to me. But what do I know, I'm just an unintelligent, ignorant, backwoods trailer trash, racist homophobe. [face_plain]



    As an aside, that brings me to another point. I really lose a lot of respect for people on either side of any issue when they start name calling. it seems like everyone has a belittling name for someone on the opposite of an issue. Things like people who are pro-abortion being called baby killers. Or gun control advocates being called gun grabbers. Or, for that matter, gun advocates being called gun nuts. That type of thing really turns me off because it makes me believe the person saying it is taking the topic emotionally instead of looking at the facts of the matter and making their decision. Does anyone else feel that way?

    lordmaul13
     
  11. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Qui-Rune,

    That addendum was my favorite.


    Thank You!

    :)

    As for Moore...I liked Roger and Me.
    Other than that...

    and now after F9/11? Forget it.
     
  12. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Maybe we Should Just Be Republicans...

    A One Party System Seems to Be What the Right Wants.

    Control over Media, One Party System, and Public Ridicule of Disenters.



    Their is a Word for oppresive right wing media savy pollitics... It's Called Fascism.

    It Worked so Well in Germany and Italy... Why Not Give A Full Fledged American Brand a Try?
     
  13. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Please continue to insult the american people if they don't promote or uphold the liberal agenda across the board.

    Wow again the pot is calling the kettle black. Thats the main advice Ive seen from Republicans so far. Its not constructive its accusing the liberals of doing one thing and ignoring their party does the same exact thing. How many times have people who disagree with the administration and the Iraqi War been called Anti-American? or accused of giving comfort to the enemy?

    Please continue to insist that your platform is in no way the equivalent of a set of moral values (defined as a religion in the dictionary) that at least half of america disagrees with.

    If half of America disagrees with it that means the other half agrees with it. Youre not seeming to grasp this concept. If most of America disagreed with it then you are onto something, and by most of America I do not mean 51% of the people, I mean more than 60-70%. Abandoning 48% of the population because they are not the majority makes no sense.

    Please continue to be clueless why at least half of middle, southern, western and northern americans disagree with you.

    Speaking of clueless! Again you say half doesnt support you, but that still leaves half that does. The concept is easy, having half against you, leaves half for you.

    So the south is deeply conservative, so is the midwest, the northeast, most mid-atlantic and Great Lakes states, and the Pacific coast supports the Democrats. Why abandon them completly for the south and other parts? I agree change is needed in the party, but not because half the country doesnt support the party line, but to appeal to more rural areas.
     
  14. liberalmaverick

    liberalmaverick Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Darth_OlsenTwins:
    Secondly, Bush wasn't trying to sell himself successfully to the middle and working class simply by claiming he was a champion of the working and middle class.

    "The President's plan helps working Americans by focusing tax relief directly at moderate-income families and those with children. A married couple with two children and income of $40,000 will see their taxes reduced by $1,133 (from $1,178 to $45) in 2003." [emphasis added] (President Bush's Agenda for Tax Relief, April 29, 2003)

    This is indeed just an empty claim, because

    "The President has given numerous speeches implying that most people stand to gain $1,000 or more from his latest tax bill, but that's not true. In fact, over the next two years, the median tax reduction will be only about $120." (Citizens for Tax Justice, May 30, 2003)

    Source
     
  15. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    One Party System Seems to Be What the Right Wants.

    Nope. I know I see the value of a 2 party system.

    Control over Media,

    Nope. Just a balanced, unbiased, truthful one.


    Public Ridicule of Disenters.

    All part of the fun.
    ;)


    Their is a Word for oppresive right wing media savy pollitics... It's Called Fascism.

    It Worked so Well in Germany and Italy... Why Not Give A Full Fledged American Brand a Try?


    What I want is to see the Democratic Party get back to its own roots. They have lost their way. Look back to JFK, FDR, Truman...look forward to Barack Obama. The Democrats need to cut out all their BULL and hatred and regain some class and charisma.
     
  16. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    JediXen,

    You said:
    If half of America disagrees with it that means the other half agrees with it. Youre not seeming to grasp this concept.

    My response:
    Why should I have to? I'm the new kid on the block. They didn't even acknowledge people like me existed because they had actually started to believe their own lies that most of america was liberal, a lie they promoted by keeping the voice of the real mainstream of america off the TV and out of the press unless it was something bad that made the conservatives and christians look like they were a few cans short, like Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh or people who blow up abortion clinics.
     
  17. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2002
    So You Would Support Charismatic and Effectice "Liberals" or are you just waiting untill they are concervetive enough to be indistinguishable from the Republicans.

    We Allready Met you Half way on Big Buisness. Can't You Meet Us Halfway on Social Jusatice?
     
  18. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    So You Would Support Charismatic and Effectice "Liberals" or are you just waiting untill they are concervetive enough to be indistinguishable from the Republicans.

    I wouldn't support Liberals in the Federal or State Govt's. That is my perogative. However, Democrats that maintain a level of class and dignity in the foundation of their politcal party will go a lot farther in this country then the current party who's leaders are clearly lacking that.

    We Allready Met you Half way on Big Buisness. Can't You Meet Us Halfway on Social Jusatice?

    What sort of Social Justice?
     
  19. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    What I want is to see the Democratic Party get back to its own roots. They have lost their way. Look back to JFK, FDR, Truman...look forward to Barack Obama. The Democrats need to cut out all their BULL and hatred and regain some class and charisma.

    I agree with this. The Democrats need to turn the tables on how they are. They really need to consider letting the fringe part of the base go, but in the long run they will draw more in. Many Democrats take issues such as gun control too far, it is obvious many Americans will not suppor gun control measures, if they limit it to assault rifle bans then they are going to get more support. In an age of high crime you can not appear to be soft on crimes, and tough on gun laws. Most gun-owning Americans are law abiding citizens and resent the government wanting to take away their feeling of security. Coming from West Virginia, guns are very much a part of our culture, most of West Virginias more liberal Democrats will not support gun-control, and its the same way in the rest of the south and Appalachia.

    That is just one policy the Democrats are going to have to reconsider, Im also in favor of promoting some members of the Christian left to the fore front. Show American's the Repubilcans dont have a monopoly on God. We are living in very trying times, and many Americans have turned to him. In my opinion the Christian Left is closer to what many Christians should be, I sincerly believe most Americans will feel that way too.
     
  20. liberalmaverick

    liberalmaverick Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Democrats, progressives, liberals, etc., here's my advice when it comes to figuring how to "save" the Democratic Party:

    Don't listen to anything that TripleB says.

    For that matter, ignore (for the most part) anything that any other conservative/Republican says, as well.

    Of course, once in awhile some benevolent Republican may drop by and offer constructive advice, but until then it's best not to take advice from the likes of TripleB or any other Republican (ESPECIALLY "more Evan Bayhs, John Breauxs, Tim Pennys, and Joe Liebermans" ShaneP).

    Turning to Republicans for advice on how to elect Democrats would be like asking Osama bin Laden for advice on U.S. military policy.

    (Speaking for myself, I'm already putting together a detailed strategy for reviving Democratic fortunes, but there's no way I'm gonna share it here where the enemy can see it.)

    See how TripleB and ShaneP are already trying to snooker the Democrats into becoming Republican-lite so the USA can benefit from having not one, but two conservative parties. For the love of this country, don't listen to them.
     
  21. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    Why should I have to? I'm the new kid on the block. They didn't even acknowledge people like me existed because they had actually started to believe their own lies that most of america was liberal, a lie they promoted by keeping the voice of the real mainstream of america off the TV and out of the press unless it was something bad that made the conservatives and christians look like they were a few cans short, like Timothy McVeigh or David Koresh or people who blow up abortion clinics.

    Again Im on the opposite side of the coin. Most of America is not liberal, nor is most of America conservative. We have 282 million people here, we have people ranging from extreme left or extreme right to somewhere in between. After watching this election I can say the Conservatives did the samething your complaining about the liberals doing. Do you know how many times I heard the words "Kerry is the most liberal senator"? They said it like it was a bad thing, how about Bush's obvious hatred toward Massachusetts? If I had a dollar for everytime he said "Only a Senator from Massachussetts would do that" or something along those lines. So liberals painted an obviously false image, the conservatives did the same by making liberals seem like Pinko Commies or Tree hugging terrorists.
     
  22. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    I was a fan of Jimmy Carter (D), and it was the one time in my life I actually voted for a member of the two-party system. That was a very long time ago. The only other time I voted, it was for an independent because neither of the two-parties appealed to me at the time (and no, it wasn't Ross Perrot). I didn't vote in this election. There are literally millions of other people that didn't vote in this election, as well. We're just fed up with all the lies and obvious grabs for power. But if nothing else, americans have made it abundantly clear that they have a voice, even if it means voting for a party they don't traditionally vote for.
     
  23. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Speaking for myself, I'm already putting together a detailed strategy for reviving Democratic fortunes, but there's no way I'm gonna share it here where the enemy can see it.
    Now, this is a kind of discussion I just can't understand. I don't see how an entire group of people can become "the enemy." And I would presume that the changes you would make to the Democratic Party are changes you think would help better American politics, so why not allow everyone to share and learn? This idea of concocting secret plans and viewing half of Americans as your opponents (instead of opposing certain ideas or even certain key figures) is a side of partisan politics I simply canot fathom. How does it benefit anyone, or do anything but hinder constructive exchange and create negative feelings? This isn't about leading your football team to victoryr; it's about creating a better America. How better than to let everyone discuss, and take the ideas you think are strongest?

    -Paul
     
  24. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    I agree with Darth Paul. John McCain stood up to his party when they were riding the Democrats as traitors for not supporting Bushs war or his policies. He had the courage to tell people to listen they are political rivals, not our enemies. We all love America, we all have our ideals of how to make America great.
     
  25. liberalmaverick

    liberalmaverick Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    darth_paul:
    My ideas for the Democratic Party do not involve sinister or illegal tactics, if that's what you are thinking.

    And it is war. I would not want to lump you along with the others because you are not a Republican, and because you have been very respectful towards me on the Senate Floor.

    But let there be no mistake: politics is war, and this isn't a realization I just hit upon or that I've come to accept just now with the Democratic defeat on Tuesday. It's something I realized half a year ago, when I read these quotes from our Republican friends:

    "This war [between liberals and conservatives] has to be fought with the scale and duration and savagery that is only true of civil wars."
    - Rep. Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.), to the Heritage Foundation, 1988

    "The Democrats are the Lefties, the takers, the coercive utopians... They are not stupid, they are evil. Evil!"
    - Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist, to a Republican fundraiser, 2001

     
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