How to Make the Love Story More Believable

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Binary_Sunset, May 18, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Riley Man Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 5
    Actually those specific lines would have made sense. I'm in agreement with a few other people here, and in disagreement with others.

    Assuming that scene had made it in the final cut, here's what I agree with:

    1) Padme has seen Anakin go through something terrible. She herself remembers Anakin's mother and how it pained him to leave in TPM.
    2) She absolutely does not agree with what he did by speaking those lines. When Anakin is saying that he should've known better than to do what he did, she very likely wanted to tell him that YES INDEED he was wrong. But I know there have been times I've talked to people who did something I didn't agree with, I've found myself consoling them in a way I might not expect. It's an extremely difficult thing to do, but at the same time you want to scorn them for doing something terrible, when they're pouring their heart out like that there is a tendency to play a role reversal in the interest of making them feel better. (Granted I've never known someone who did something anywhere NEAR this bad, but you get the point)
    3) Someone mentioned something about her wanting to "fix" him. This could very well be. I've fallen for a woman or two in the past that I felt had done some iffy things (again, nothing like this). And thought I could change them -- that maybe it was behind them or a one-time thing they did.
    4) Padme does not truly love Anakin at any time, even after she pledges it. She's a victim of circumstance, emotion, confusion, and Anakin's obsession. Just saying she loves him does not really make it so.
    Lots of people kiss without actually being in love. Lots of people kiss based on raw attraction and by the lead of the other partner, even only after a few days.


    I can't say I agree at all with what people are saying re: the Death Star. That thing was about to blow away the planet (moon?) housing the Rebel base, and after that who knows what else. It wasn't just a military target, but also a military vehicle. They had to blow it up.
    Not only that, but I never got the impression that anyone other than officers and stormtroopers -- all military personnel -- lived on it. (I thought I saw someone mention them killing people). Also keep in mind that any maintenance crew likely consisted of droids, not people.


    (Edit: Added an extra point -- #3)
  2. MoonMan080 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 3
    Well, I cant agree with either sides on this one.. but i Do know that

    Bin's comparing the slaugther to 19th century cavalry is OFF. This is a personal thing, not some random recruits fufilling orders. A boy comes home to see mother, finds shes been kidnapped, finds her, and she dies in his arms. He went seeking vengence, and the Dark side took over. He didnt have control. WAIT, I KNOW THAT'S NO EXCUSE, AND NO ONE SHOULD BE SYMPATHETIC FOR THAT REASON, but we know how the Dark Side overwhelms.

    I think in all this talk of Padme excepting this mass murder, we are forgeting what brought it about.
  3. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    I see the distinction you're making, MoonMan080. Let me run this by you:

    Say you met a 19-year-old Roman Catholic nun last week (whom you briefly knew as a little girl), and ever since you met her she's been feeding you love lines. Now suppose that a black man murders her mother, and she confesses to you that she just got back from the four-plex the murderer lived in. What was she doing there? Oh, she axe-murdered 8 black men, 10 black women, and 12 black children (in other words, everyone at the four-plex).

    Oh, and, by the way, she wants to know if you'll marry her the day after tomorrow.

    What would YOU do?
  4. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Well Binary, the fault in your argument is that you equate black people to Tuskens. Tuskens are NOT human, black people are. (God how ridiculous is this argument. I don't think it was intentional that you made this statement, but I would rethink the point, Binary)


    A better argument is if a gruop of nomad apes killed my mom.
  5. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Tuskens are not human. True. But they are sentient beings! There are zillions of non-human sentient beings in the SW galaxy! All of them have the same rights that humans do.

    Tuskens have pets, make dwellings, make fires, use technology, wear clothes, etc. How many animals do all those things? Answer: Zero.

    Lastly, if all Anakin was doing was slaughtering some animals, then why did he feel guilty? Why did Qui-Gon's voice yell No! Why was the Emperor's theme playing when Anakin admitted to his murder?

    If Anakin merely killed some animals, then the entire scene is pointless. It is the fact that he murdered sentient beings that makes this a pivotal scene in AOTC. This marks the beginning of his fall to the dark side. Otherwise, it would merely mark a job change to the butcher at the grocery store.
  6. Padmewan McGregor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1999
    star 3
    Oy vey, I can't believe we are debating whether Anakin's slaughter was wrong. Anakin said the words "women" and "children." In his mind they were "human." That's all we need to know.

    The problem with the romance (it was not a love story) is that Padme has no personality whatsoever. We cannot tell what she thinks or feels. She could fall in love with R2 or a rock and it would be no different.

    Lucas has a really hard time with his female characters in the PT. Shmi was basically a conduit for Anakin to show up; then she was the 100% perfect mother; then she conveniently dies as the 100% perfect mother. Padme, likewise, has no discernable character or flaws. She's not a person outside her persona as "Senator" and (for some odd reason) "warrior." What makes her tick? We don't know.

    What could have been more believable is if Obi-Wan was right: she is a politician and she is not to be trusted. I disagree with several previous posters in that if Padme had comforted Anakin with "They're just animals," we would have seen something about her that would undermine her lip-service to "democracy" (and would have been consistent with her attitude towards Gungans at the beginning of TPM).

    btw, many interpretations of "Romeo and Juliet" also assert the relationship between the title characters was not one of love.
  7. Jedi_StarDust Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2002
    star 4
    The AOTC novel played out the love story in a much more believeable way. GL does have a hard time having the women, such as Padmé, act out their true feelings onscreen- but the novel shows a lot about Padmé's internal conflict between love and duty, and her ongoing self-pressure to defeat Ani's love. I think they should've added something , I just don't know what, to make Padmé's feelings come out more in the movie. Anakin's character was great, I thought. But I agree that Padmé seemed to have been a thin character, yet the book portrayed everything really well. That was something that did disappoint me about AOTC. And some people may not like the Naboo scenes, but I actually think that they should've kept Padmé's family scenes. In the novel, Padmé's family questions and acts out their concern for her, and also their interest/suspicions about Anakin and Padmé. Though people find these scenes "Un-StarWars-y" they actually build up Padmé's conflict and how she is wondering about her and Anakin more (she begins by totally building a brick wall in-between them, but the wall is being broken down a little at the family scenes). It seemed unnatural in the movie, Padmé and Anakin just went from being friends on the spaceship, to arguing at Theed Palace to suddenly kissing on that balcony thing. They never suggested that Padmé had any interest in Anakin...at all...but maybe I think this way because I read the novel and it was much more thorough.
  8. DarthSebith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    In the beginning padme still remembers anakin as that little boy from TPM.

    its uncomfortable as she said , for him
    trying to come on to her.

    but when they arrive on tatooine hes all business and is looking for his mother,
    every question he asks he gets a sad answer

    shes beganing to feel sorry for him. she begans falling for him by feeling sorry for him and grows protective of him.

    and when he goes and slaughters tuskens and brings his dead mother back.

    im sure she was disturbed by him saying what he did but she knows he loved his mother.

    on the ship in episode 1 when hes cold she brings up that he misses his mother.

    she knows how much shmi meant to him.
    from that point on shes protective and then comes the love blah blah blah. :)
  9. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    All Padme knows Tuskens to be is evil, animals that look human. You cannot equate that to killing an actual person Binary_Sunset. Its the like killing a pack of wolves that killed your mother basically, thats a much better comparison to what Padme see's everything as, than you keeping trying to force everyone to think of actual people. Just look at it from what Padme knows about Tuskens and its not as evil you you keep pointing out, now if Padme had seen the Tuskens, with the children playing, the women doing little jobs and seeing them fuction as a society, her reaction might be different but she doesnt have our advantage of that. She simply hears all the evil things they have done, and constantly called animals.
  10. MoonMan080 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 3
    What would I do Bin? I would question all the past feelings I had for her when we were younger. I would think to my self, "I thought I knew this chick, BUT SHES NUTS!" For sure, in our world this is a crime, and the coppers will be out for her soon, would I testify? (I can Imagine the headlines... Damn, as if the Catholic church doesnt have ENOUGH problems... anyway) It depends on how she looks back on it.

    A big question, does she feel bad about this? has she fully went over what happend? what she did? or does she say, "they deservered it, I'm glad I did it. "

    Anikin feels remorse, he breaks down, though we know how he still feels about the Tuskens, there is still anger there, as there would be.

    If she is geniunely confused and scared of what she has found herself capable of, than there is some sympathy there, she really lost control. There is a difference of people who feel bad and don't. the crime is in no way undone.
    Of course, unlike the real world, nobody is going to enforce the law on this tusken slaugther, there need not be a desicion made about sides Padme would take. there is very little order on Tatooine...especially for those who SEEM to simply kidnap and murder out of pleasure.

    also though,
    When does the proposal/marrige take place?

    Your'e bending things a bit because you make it seem as if "i killed innocent women and children earlier today" and "will you marry me?" are two sentences that come one after another in the film, which they don't.

    There are people who can commit such crimes, who can know of these terrible crimes, yet have a certain ability to close the event off completly in their mind( O.J.)

    that's going a little deep, but this theme of vengence is Star Wars is a bit deeper than normal SW fare..
  11. MoonMan080 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 3
    boy, im all over the place on that last post...


    what I'm saying is, If I knew she thought she lost control, I'd firmly support her in a plead of insanity. Of course,that's bringing in perhaps too much real world to the SW universe...
  12. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Here's a notation I think we need to take...

    * Anakin Skywalker is best compared to Frailty's hero.

    Anakin Skywalker is the Son of God basically and he's highly in tune with the Force as well as supremely vunerable to temptation.

    * He's been tortured for a month by visions of his mother being raped and tortured by Tuskens

    * He's in love with Padme but he's also drowning in the visions and the knowledge that the galaxy is going down the potty

    Anakin isn't stupid and while the novels arn't canon they illustrate what Lucas alludes to that the galaxy is turning to mush.

    Sure secession isn't wrong but then again look what secession did to my South! Why they suceeded waswrong

    * Anakin is charismatic, handsome, and heroic

    Why do people flock to Jim Jones and Koresh? Anakin is a genius as well with a great deal going for him. He could change the galaxy in a positive way if he wants

    Padme loves Anakin as a child (surrogate mother) as well as loving him as a man who approaches her as a human.

    * The Galaxy is falling to pieces

    WW1 is about to begin for the galaxy with the senseless struggle of the Clone Wars going to devastate the universe for ten years. Padme isn't stupid, she knows what's oing to happen.

    Anakin needs protecting and love as well.

    * An arguement can be made the Tusken murders are a crime of passion

    I have little sympathy for temporary insanity claims usually but I believe they can happen.
  13. Corusca-Gem Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    Well here in the real world there was the women in Texas who killed her 5 children.

    Similarities:

    She killed innocent children.
    Her husband still loves her, and supports her, as Padme still loves and supports Anakin.


    Differences:
    This woman was mentally ill for some time. Anakin temporarily lost control, I do not think he was suffereing from mental illness, but more from pure rage.
    Also this happened early in the courtship.

    But the end result is the same, in that both were unable to do that which was right due to somehow losing control of their actions.

    So looking at this I guess Padme could still love Anakin - furthermore even look at him with pity, as instead of getting to grieve for his mother, now he is going to be dealing with this as well, the immense almost unimaginable guilt that would come from this.

    None of this is meant in any way to dismiss or minimize what happen to the victims, but merely to point out that sometimes in crime, the perpertraitor is a victim as well. I mean if you would have asked Anakin or this woman 2 years before these incidents happed, "Would you kill children in these circumstances?", I imagine the answer would have been a definitive "NO."
  14. Kinetik_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Padme loves Anakin. They are part of something bigger than Romeo and Juliet - the freedom of the known universe. This theme is interwoven with a common attribute of 'true love' acceptance. Padme does not judge Anakin but comforts him - that moment after Anakin told her about his slaughtering of the Tuskins is the most pivotal in their relationship. That moment is the beginning of their tragedy.

    IMO the love story portrayed in AOTC is one of the most powerful I've seen in a movie. I loved it. Think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon condensed into 15 mins ;)

  15. Makavelli Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 1
    That's no fun Binary. This love story is supposed to be a little far fetched, the idea that they got married wasn't the brightest thing ever, but the audience is supposed to understand the pressure they were under and why they did it. You just don't like the idea of emotions being in SW, you need something more rational.
  16. Jedi_StarDust Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2002
    star 4
    Hmm..I wonder what will occur in Episode Three. What really will drive their love out the door and Anakin over the edge. Maybe they will be forced into seperation by Obi-Wan or something, I don't know...any theories? Personally, I think that part of the reason Anakin goes to the darkside is that Padmé is totally taken from his life. I don't think she'll be dead by the time they seperate, since they had to hide the twins, which means she gave birth to them after Anakin had gone to the darkside. Maybe he's made to think that she's dead...I don't know, and he blames her death on the Jedi. Hmm...*ponders*... *sniffles* this love story is so sad...
  17. Obi Swan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 1998
    star 1
    I think the problem is that we all had pre-conceived notions of Padme as this mature, wise-beyond-years young woman. But in reality, she's got lots of problems: she's socially and romantically inexperienced because of the life she's led, she's still fairly young, she's impulsive and risk-taking(remember Typho's concern), she has sort of a mother-complex regarding Anakin, etc. So she's messed up quite a bit (though not as much as Anakin) and overlooks the bad even though she admits a secret romance with him would "destroy them." In the next movie, 100-to-1 odds she confesses to someone that she acted impulsively, irrationally, and made a big mistake, thinking she could "take care of Anakin" or "help him" or "change him."

    You must unlearn what you have learned. . . . Padme Amidala is not so wise, rational, or mature as you thought she would be going into this film. Accept it: Padme Amidala is a seriously flawed individual, and when you accept that, the romance/love/infatutation/obsession becomes quite believable.
  18. Corusca-Gem Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    Edit to my post above:

    This:

    I mean if you would have asked Anakin or this woman 2 years before these incidents happed, "Would you kill children in these circumstances?", I imagine the answer would have been a definitive "NO."


    Should Read:


    I mean if you would have asked Anakin or this woman years before these incidents happened, "Would you kill innocent children?", I believe they would have said something along the lines of "No. Killing innocent children is something that I hope and pray that I would never do!"
  19. kittenmommy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2001
    star 3
    Obi Swan wrote:

    I think the problem is that we all had pre-conceived notions of Padme as this mature, wise-beyond-years young woman. But in reality,
    she's got lots of problems: she's socially and romantically inexperienced because of the life she's led, she's still fairly young, she's impulsive and risk-taking(remember Typho's concern), she has sort of a mother-complex regarding Anakin, etc. So she's messed up quite a bit


    By inserting the "mother complex" thing, you make her sound even MORE messed up! LOL!

    snip

    In the next movie, 100-to-1 odds she confesses to someone that she acted impulsively, irrationally, and made a big mistake, thinking she could "take care of Anakin" or "help him" or "change him."

    Personally, I couldn't figure out what she saw in him. He may be cute, but he's reckless, irresponsible, appallingly immature, and he whines like a spoiled brat (a trait his son appears to have inherited!). She's an educated woman - a former child prodigy who has served both as Queen and Senator. The maturity gap between them is immeasurable.

    Ah, perhaps I am just getting old!

    Kittenmommy.
  20. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    It's not supposed to be a good romance. It is supposed to be flawed. That is why it is tragic. They are doomed from the start. We knew that at the beginning. Neither of them is making good decisions.

    How often have women who should have known better, let circumstances lead them in to making some very bad choices. The red flags are there all over the place. Hayden did an excellent job (IMHO) with the looks that indicated that this man has some serious issues and a dark side. Women have been falling for the wrong guy since the beginning. IT is an age old story. It is not real love. It is lust, infatuation, longing, romantic, rebellion, hormonal zing zing zing. But it is nto real love. It happened too fast. That is what makes it so sad to me. We know she is making the worst decison of her life. She like so many other woman, feels the need to comfort and protect him. Have you never seen a young woman who did everything right and seemed to have it all going for her, throw it all way becasue she thought she was "in love" with someone. IT is an old old theme. And it is indeed a twisted parallel to Leia and Han, who manage to get it right. Perhaps that is why Vader is so quick to throw Han in after Leia confesses her love and kisses him. Bad memories?
  21. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Anakin is hardly far below her.

    Anakin I repeat TALKS TO GOD
    Anakin is a genius with machines that rivals Thomas Edison
    Anakin is a hero many times over to the galaxy as is
    Anakin is a member of the most prestigeous order of the galaxy
    Anakin saved her planet when he was 9 and her when she was 14
    Anakin will eventually become a tactician and military leader over half the galaxy second only to the Emperor
  22. plocool Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2001
    star 3
    A lot of interesting points made here by a few of you guys.

    Anakin may have remorse for his actions. I think this is why he justifies them by reducung the tuskens to animals.

    And a point was made about Padme. I think she doesn't really know about the Tuskens. So truly if everyone calls them beasts and they kill Shmi, She will prob. think they are just savage animals.

    I think Padme is a lot more complex than we are made to believe. She wants everything, yet understands the implications of engaging in a relationship with Anakin.

    She likes him because he's handsome, he's a Jedi and he's somewhat charismatic. But she knows that he's deeply troubled and she wants to help him as well.

    The wedding scene seems sad, not really joyous to me. It's almost as if Padme convinced herself to love ani.




  23. EMK Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Padme falling in love with Anakin after the Tuskin Slaugther unbelievable? What ?

    I fell in love with him/his character at that moment. He looked raged, confused , and full of despair. Padme saw the despair and guilt. I mean geee.. If your mother was killed by a bunch of Tuskins what would you do ? on top of that, i believe( i only saw it once so far) he collapses stares at his hands, like I can't believe i did that, and says he only feels at peace when Padme is there. I got teary eyed.

    Its suppose to be tragic fairy tale romance , which always means quick passionate romance between two young lovesr and tragedy at the end. Thus, if they made the romance develp over a long period of time it wouldn't have the same tragic effect.

    Many females i know from 12-35 all fell in love with Anakin. It's a girl thing,, hes sexy, brooding, those eyes, and talented
  24. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    I think that if Padme was confronted with just any old person who did what Anakin confesses to, she would be shocked and horrified, and of course never *marry* the guy.

    But Padme knows Anakin's whole heart. She was there when he left his mother, and she knows that was wrenching for him. She knows Anakin's been worrying about her for days, with premonitions of terrible doom. She knows how terribly he's missed her.

    Now she sees these people who of course don't realize quite what they've done, who have arbitrarily thrown away something irreplacable precious to Anakin, when they might just as well have let Shmi live. She sees and feels Anakin's pain, how terribly unfair it all is. She understands his need for vengeance.

    I disagree with those who say Anakin felt pleasure in the killing. I submit that Anakin was miserable before, during, and after. And that Padme recognizes this. But she also recognizes that Anakin is at the end of his rope, and that it will not be helpful to scold him right now. It will be more than he can take at this point in time.

    The last point to remember is that Padme has not only seen the worst Anakin is capable of, but also the best. She knows he is not an evil cold-blooded killer. She knows that he is a very sensitive soul who hasn't learned a way to regard the iniquities that happen in life in a way that promotes/preserves any peace of mind on his part. He is vulnerable and struggling, and this is what she sees, not a thoroughly bad character who did premeditated murder in cold blood.

    I think the issue is not, should she have married someone who killed, but should she have married someone who shows so little ability to handle stress and make sense of his world. He's showing symptoms of a problem that is going to make him an extremely difficult marriage parter, as well as every other role he takes on.

    She recognizes that he needs help, and that Obi-Wan is not providing the sort of help he needs. She wants to help and believes she can. But marrying him, although it's going to give him a sense of safety, isn't the best way to be helpful here. She's shackled herself to a big problem here, and she's going to regret it.
  25. Padmewan McGregor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1999
    star 3
    Re: OBI SWAN, I agree that Padme is not who we think she is... and that's the problem. Lucas failed to portray her as she is; thus we are stuck here trying to conceive of why she'd fall in love with Anakin, rather than just believe it.

    Re: EMK, we must hang out with very different women, because all the women I know were instantly repulsed by everything Anakin did to woo Na, er, Padme. Most women don't like it when men throw themselves at their feet, gush their feelings at them, whine about their mentors, etc.

    Here's my conclusion: the romance would have been more believable if both of them talked less. Lucas should have just let the two actors... act. Give each other looks. Share an accidental touch. Like that scene with the potato-fleas but without the aura of a tampon advert. (Or self-parody). Spend more time on that intergalactic cruise and less in overtly "romantic" places like that lakeside retreat. Romance happens because of two people, not because of the pretty background.

    Honestly, it also would have worked better if Padme were the one seducing Anakin. Based on her previous roles, Natalie is quite good at the Han Solo type. But, that would require Anakin to have been about 6 years older in TPM... but let's not go there...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.