CT How would YOU imprive the CT?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Chainmail_Jedi, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    The fact that the biggest complaint some fans have had with ROTJ is that Han survived illustrates how and why he is a secondary character-- he is expendable. You don't need Han to beat the Empire, restore balance to the Force, and all that jazz. If he had died in the movie, yeah it would've been sad, but the biggest thing it would've done is raise the stakes for Luke's conflict with Vader and the Emperor. That's the really important battle-- not the Rebel Armada attacking Death Star 2: Electric Bugaloo, or the teddy bear guerilla soldiering down below. Han is an important piece of the puzzle, but not an essential one, and by that count not a primary one.
  2. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Funny, how when people talk about the "big 3" of the OT, they are referring to Luke, Leia, and Han. And when a thread was created about the favorite of those three characters, Han wasn't the odd man out.

    It is a whole in your little theory.
  3. Klingon Padawan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    I would have used Wookies in ROTJ on Endor.
    Last edited by Klingon Padawan, Mar 5, 2013
  4. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

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    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    This is kind of what I'm talking about. His popularity as a character is way out of proportion to his actual importance to the narrative. It would be like if Ringo suddenly became the most popular Beatle.
  5. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan

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    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Mod edit: Not allowed
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 5, 2013
  6. edog37 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    this would have been one change. I would have also showed the internal mental battle Anakin was having with Vader as Luke was getting zapped by Sidious by using tons of flashbacks throughout the entire saga. With the mask on, you couldn't really tell what was going on with Anakin. He just kept looking back & forth. Someone on You Tube put the following together & its pretty close to what I would have done except one thing. At the end & right before he picks up Palps, he has the flashback with his mother saying "Why couldn't I save her" & then Padme appears to Anakin & says: "Anakin, save our son"!

    You Tube:
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  7. Jarren_Lee-Saber Jedi Master

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    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    FANTASTIC!
  8. Theron Solo Jedi Padawan

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Han Solo was the man!!! Loved him as a kid, still love the character now. But I liked the whole space cowboy concept myself.
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  9. Seagoat Music and PT Section Sentinel

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    Jan 25, 2013
    star 5
    It's an interesting look into Anakin's thoughts as he contemplates. The 2004 novelization did a pretty good job of tying the trilogies together, mentioning Qui-Gon, Windu, Shmi, Padme, etc.

    The only thing I don't like about that video is that Anakin forgot to say "No... NOOO!"
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  10. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

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    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    I can understand the appeal to the character to an extent, and especially the appeal of the whole "space cowboy" concept, for how surreal a piece of pop pastiche it is. But even as a kid I preferred the concept of the Jedi Knight-- the space samurai, as it were-- and I think it goes without saying that the Jedi are more central to the overall themes and substance of the series than the periphery of outlaws and gunslingers.
  11. Theron Solo Jedi Padawan

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    I understand what your saying, I loved them both growing up. I think part of Han Solo's cult following also is the fact that Harrison Ford was the actor.
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  12. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    I think that just goes to show that we all take something different out of Star Wars. Some enjoy the Jedi and the more philosophical aspects surrounding the Force, etc. and others (like myself) enjoy things like the struggle of the Rebellion against the Empire and perhaps a certain space cowboy with the heart of gold. ;)

    Also, I would not call Han Solo's popularity a cult following. He may not be a Jedi or directly linked to the Skywalker family, but that doesn't mean he didn't play an important role in the story (he was an integral part of the Rebellion's victory over the Empire). He had his moments and did his fair share to contribute. As one of the main leads, it's quite understandable that he would have such a following of fans. If you want a perfect example of a cult following and a character that garners WAY more attention than he deserves, then let's look at Boba Fett. The guy has about 5 minutes of screen time and the only thing he really accomplishes is tracking the Falcon and looking 'cool.'
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  13. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
    star 4
    Precisely! I think it's rather unimaginative to suggest that only Jedi and other force-sensitive characters can be important to the story. The SW universe is not that limited. One of the big strengths of the OT and what helped make it so popular is that the films had three protagonists -- each with a very different personality that could appeal to a different group of fans.

    And word on Boba Fett being overrated. I have never understood his popularity.
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  14. edog37 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    you can throw that in there if you want, it just would have been a nice way to tie both trilogies together as well as to show the internal conflict. Hopefully when the do the inevitable re-release of the OT, they'll do something like that....
  15. PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
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    This is part of the reason I find Han's popularity so perplexing (not that there's anything wrong with people liking him). By my estimation, he's not a well-developed character and he's also not that important to the narrative. Seriously, Chewie could do everything he does (except for the romance).

    I've always felt the OT would have been improved by either giving Han a more complex arc or simply giving more of his screentime to Luke, to develop his internal conflict. But that's just me.
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  16. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

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    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    This is also one of the big reasons I outgrew Han-- Harrison Ford has done much, much better work since. Even growing up I knew that if I really wanted to see Ford in a great heroic role, Indiana Jones was better than Han Solo. Not long after that I discovered him as Jack Ryan in "Patriot Games" and "Clear and Present Danger", and then all the great dramatic roles he's been in over the years. All of that trumps Solo, in my book, and makes it a lot easier to look at the strengths of the saga without him.

    Aw, c'mon. Why say that? You can have interspecies romances in the GFFA, can't you? I bet there are plenty of human gals who'd go nuts for Chewie. Maybe if Han wasn't around, Leia's inner-furry would come out. She'd just as soon kiss a wookie, after all.

    In all seriousness, though, one way I'd improve the saga overall is include more non-normative romances, especially LGBT.
  17. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

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    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    The problem is that as one of the more mainstream characters, and one of the more contemporary-Western ones at that (and not just as in the American West), Han can very easily dominate the conversation about "Star Wars" despite not playing the most active role in the story. He's a great foil to Luke, the Jedi, and the cause of the Rebellion, but he tends to overshadow all of that. Just as it's unimaginative that only Jedi can be important to the story, it's unimaginative to believe that the story always needs a space-cowboy figure.

    The problem with Han's popularity is that it isn't a cult. It's gone mainstream.
  18. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    It's a nice video, but I wish people would stop wanting this kind of thing to actually be in the films. It's kind of... dumbed down, I guess would be the right word. We don't need a bunch of flashbacks interrupting the climax. Nor do we really need an explicit articulation of Anakin/Vader's mental state - that's the real reason why the "NOOO" in the Blu-Rays is a bad idea, I think.
  19. edog37 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    how is it dumbed down when it helps to tell the story? As far as the "NOO" is concerned, I think that was a good inclusion. The whole premise behind the franchise is Anakin/Vader's mental state. It looks kind of stupid just having Vader looking back & forth like a goof while Luke is getting fried. Plus, this is the penultimate moment in the franchise when the Chosen One returns from the Dark. It's something that even Yoda believed was impossible. Why would you not want to show what is going on at that stage?
    Last edited by edog37, Mar 6, 2013
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  20. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Master

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    Feb 18, 2013
    star 4
    But a lot of that has to do with the fact that the actor who played Han became a huge movie star outside of the franchise. That's out of anyone's control. None of us gets to decide which characters become popular and which ones don't. Doesn't change the fact that it's a good thing to have different types of characters in the leading roles. That way the story can appeal to a broader fanbase because there's a little something for everybody.
  21. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, but again-- it's one thing to say it's nice having a Han "space cowboy" type in SW so there's something for everybody. It's another thing to, as a lot of OT purists have done, insist that SW has to have a Han in order for it to be SW. I like the fact that there isn't an equivalent to his character in the PT, as a sign that the series had grown out of that kind of stock figure and had found its own way to appeal to mainstream audiences.
  22. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    ...I'm not even sure I want to bother answering this. But to try: have you ever heard of subtlety? Viewers don't need Vader's mental state explicitly spelled out for them. You can tell when he makes his decision without needing to add what might be the single most-parodied thing in Star Wars just in case some of them didn't get it.

    And even leaving that out of the question, putting the climax on hold to deliver a ton of flashbacks just drops pacing like a baseball bat to the head. There's only a couple of works where I've ever seen this pulled off successfully, and this wouldn't be one of them.
  23. Klingon Padawan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    I'm not sure how this would work, and it would probably make the dialogue scenes a bit more convoluted, but I would have shown Leia being captured and taken to the DS2, just like what happened with Luke. It would have been very interesting to see Leia in the Emperor's throne room.
  24. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2013
    star 4
    I never called Han a "space cowboy." You did. The bottom line is that much of these characters' value is in the eye of the beholder. To you, Han is a "stock figure" that must be "grown out of." To me, he is anything but. When I watch Han onscreen I see a charming, funny character who brings some much-needed levity and humanity to what would otherwise an overly pedantic and serious story (you know, like the PT). Not to mention that Han is played by a charismatic actor, which adds to his appeal.

    Fans are always going to say extreme things about the stories and characters. So what?

    Edited to add: Look at it this way. Han-lovers got to enjoy one trilogy with him. Han-haters got to enjoy one trilogy without him. Something for everybody.

    As for the ST, yes it does appear that Han Solo will be in Episode 7. But cheer up -- the odds are very strong he will die in that movie, given that Ford has always been outspoken about wanting Han to die. So you can throw a big party when Han kicks the bucket.

    Then you'll just have to worry that Han's kid(s) take more after Leia than him. :D
    Last edited by Leias_Left_Bun, Mar 6, 2013
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  25. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, we can go back and forth on this. You see the PT story as overly pedantic and serious. I see the OT story as being overly simplistic and further watered down by Han, to the point that even Ronald Reagan could misapropriate it for the purposes of Cold War propaganda.

    Again, it's always so odd to me that Ford and so many of the ardent Han fans (in general) have been so outspoken about wanting the character to die. That just underlines his unimportance to the plot, that he could be the narrative sacrificial lamb. Anyway, the proper time for him to die in the movies would've been in ESB, in all seriousness-- freezing him in carbonite is a nice sci-fi softening of that for kids (even more of a softening than the Ewoks, when you get down to it) but killing him off after he's already had his big symbolic death-and-resurrection moment is just redundant.

    I'm reminded of Neo and Trinity's deaths in "Matrix Revolutions"-- it was hard to be too broken up about them seeing as they'd both already "died" in the movies previously. Or take Gandalf's "death" in "Fellowship of the Ring", and his reappearance afterwards-- I didn't know the LOTR story in the theater, but I already had lost my emotional investment in him as a character because I understood, narratively, that you'd gain nothing by killing him all over again. Or of course, the big mac daddy of them all in sci-fi kill-me-once-shame-on-you experiences, Spock.

    One death and resurrection means you're pretty much safe from another death, because repetition like that would be boring. That's not to say it won't happen, because lord knows if there's one thing that "Star Wars" thrives on, it's repetition. But since we can all see that coming, part of me hopes that they won't give into that and find something unexpected instead.

    As for Han & Leia's kids-- as long as it's nobody from the EU, fine. More seriously, since this is purporting to show the next generation of the GFFA, here's hoping the archetypes of rebeliousness can move out of the Wild West and WWII at least. Maybe a Skywalker/Solo in the mold of Che Guevara.
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