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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

"Human Shields" - are they misguided nutballs or noble humanitarians?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by JediBeowulf, Feb 21, 2003.

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  1. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    "i'm might seem cold hearted, but i don't have sympathy for people who willingly put themselves in danger to make a point"

    What about the student in Korea that stood up to a military tank?? Your statement is a spit in the face to many, many great people in history. I feel sorry for you if thats how you feel.

    Is there any other purpose of this thread than to bash the "human shields"?
     
  2. andakin

    andakin Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2000
    Why, that's a great idea!

    Why don't those human protesters just march right up to Saddam's tanks to make a point. "Free these people!" they'll say; and Saddam will learn!

    Or, isn't that what they're worried about?

    The phrase "give me liberty or give me death" isn't without merit.
     
  3. Vaderbait

    Vaderbait Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    No wonder everyone else in the world hates us.
    Except, that despite popular opinion, they don't. [face_plain] Some influential people hate us, but I've seen nothing that suggests the masses of the world hate us.
    ______

    Why should we feel bad for the humanitarians dying? I'm not saying we should aim for them, but they knowingly go into danger. We don't feel bad for those who die fighting in a war.

    Saying these people are innocent is like saying a civilian shooting a machine gun at a soldier does not deserve to be shot. They may not be in an army, but they knowingly go into danger. They know (or should) they could lose thei rlives, yet they still do it.

    SO whatever happens, happens. No one should lose any sleep if they die, for they died fo rwhat they believe in, even if it's a doped up view of the world.
     
  4. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Sorry, E_S, you aren't playing the middle ground on this - you're taking the leftist position.

    The fact is, there is no middle ground on this issue.

    Your argument concerning the pro-war crowd is also absurd. You don't have to be in favor of something in order to participate in it least of all sacrifice your life for it, last I checked.


    Oh, FFS, do you read anything I say DM? Or just the stuff that suits your polarized view of the world? You've even confused POLUNIS, who's decided to haughtily jump on board your little bandwagon to Wrongsville.

    I said, quiet expressedly, that they were "gits", did I not? Are you familiar with the term? It's a British one, you see. It means idiot - fitting, really, isn't it? [face_plain]

    Ender_Sai, your willingness to side with these human shields despite what the Geneva Convention says (your beloved International Law), reveals what little principle you have.

    POLUNIS, like Donnie in the Big Lebowki you are out of your element. And had DM not pointed out the Geneva Convention, there is no way you would have known so drop the pseudo-intellectual posturing.

    You neo-cons are so predictable in your arguements that all I did was insert a counterbalance, a point to consider, because I knew like everything else you get your talons into it'd be a one sided affair. Now, I appreciate that we don't really know the word "git" here - it means idiots, ok?

    Would anyone (Ender_Sai, this includes you) care to explain how their actions do not meet this legal definition of treason?

    My my, we certainly have a dense bunch here. People love not to read what's there, only to pick words they like out to suit their arguements. I mean, silly me - thinking that adding not one but TWO (Count 'em) disclaimers would somehow shield me from this crap. Oh no, did I ever underestimate the sheer <words fail me here> of the neo-con mind! :eek:

    Is there any other purpose of this thread than to bash the "human shields"?

    Nope, and trying to faciliate discussion or debate is a no-no. Most of you guys haven't been to court have you? Haven't watched a real, proper debate that wasn't being mediated by a FOX Anchor?

    Thought not. [face_plain]

    You think this post is elitst or condescending? You should try being on my end. Because, for whatever unholy reason I don't know (education system perhaps), you guys are incapable of seeing the world in anything LESS than absolutes. If it's not completely cohesive with your ideology it MUST, by some bizzare twist of logic, be your exact opposite, and therefore alien, and therefore an enemy to be feared and destroyed.

    KaineDamo, maybe you'd like to define what this sentence means, as we don't seem to have any English speakers here:
    "They are gits though. " - by Ender_Sai

    Does that mean - "They are so much more noble than evil Americans" or "They are idiots"? (They being the shields).

    All I can say is [face_plain]

    E_S
     
  5. Joey7F

    Joey7F Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2000
    The Human Shields are committing suicide. We are not going to avoid war based on 200 morons that decide that an evil tyrant like Saddam Hussein is worth defending.

    Chalk one up for "Misguided Nutball"

    --Joey

     
  6. rsterling78

    rsterling78 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    This is hilarious! This comes from The Telegraph out of the U.K.

    Fifteen volunteers from the first 200 shields are moving into a bunker at the South Baghdad Electricity Plant in an effort to deter attack by America and its allies. However some of the shields yesterday questioned Iraq's selection of the power plant, after discovering that it is situated next to an army base.

    Since the shields' first visit to examine their new quarters, sandbags and unmanned check points had been erected around the plant. Asked about the neighbouring Rasheed military base, an Iraqi official said: "Don't worry, it is a small army camp."


    What's wrong, folks? Did you think you'd go on a nice little field trip to Iraq to engage in some moral exhibitionism and then return home to your pleasant little comfortable American suburb? This is war, people.

    By the way, a lot of these modern "smart" bombs have TV cameras built into them so FoxNews and CNN can show footage of you staring stupidly at the projectile after the Iraqis have all fled the scene. Imagine what your neighbors will think as they watch the vacant expression on your face just before the screen goes to static.
     
  7. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Ender_Sai, I have noticed the trend on this board that many of the things you have said to be totally true.

    Not all conservatives are like this, but on the boards, it seems everyone has this thing that there are only two ways, RIGHT and WRONG. We think they are being simple minded, they think we are just confusing ourselves and others with our attempts to look at points from various sides.

    Another note, I would say that most of the liberal-leftist posters on this board sway WAY more towards the middle than the conservito's, who are all about the "my way or die" attitude.

    And yes, I do feel bad for human shields, even if, actually, ESPECIALLY if you consider them misguided nutballs. It's like you are telling all those blacks and whites that fought for civil rights in this country "Hey, I don't give a rat's arse that you got whooped by the cops or that they turned on industrial strength firehoses on YOUR CHILDREN, you idiots knew that protesting could lead to you getting your arse whooped, you deserve what you get."

    It's not so much the belief that a war is just, it's the attitude and what seems like a total lack of consideration for human life, including innocent Iraqi's, human shields, and our own young men who will die. Now, maybe a war is necessary, (I still think diplomatic avenues have yet to be exhausted,) but the hawkish attidue many of you conservito's possess doesn't seem all that bothered by the loss of human life as long as it's "rightous."
     
  8. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I think some of these people are misguided humanitarians.

    Unfortunate. [face_plain]

     
  9. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    I have no sympathy for any of those misguided bozos. If they think that by being in Iraq it will keep us from bombing the heck out of the area they are sadly mistaken.

    These people have decided for themselves that they can die by doing this, therefore I have no sympathy for them. They know what they are getting into, and they will get what they deserve either way.

    Do I admire what they are doing? Yes and no. Why? It all depends on the situation and why they are doing it. If they were doing this for a just cause to safe innocent lives, and to do something just, then I would be all for it. However I don't admire these folks at all, because they are protecting an evil man to stay in power, and to butcher his people. They are no better than trying to protect Hitler or Stalin.

    Therefore not only should we bomb our strategic targets in Iraq to it's fullest compacity, but drop the first bombs on those human shields to get it over with, and to show we mean business to the enemy. It sounds cold hearted but I think it's cold hearted to protect an evil dictator like SH. So there you have it.

    Okay let the flaming begin.
     
  10. rsterling78

    rsterling78 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Whoa there, DPF! I don't think our military should directly target these misguided people. If they choose to position themselves between us and a viable target, fine. Bombs away. But it would be murder, not war, to go out of one's way to execute these folks.

    I hope they survive and find themselves in a liberated Iraq. When the Iraqi people are free from the oppression of Saddam's fascist government, these "humanitarians" may discover that they are not very popular with the locals.
     
  11. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    I do too. However if these people are in a bombing target then we should still drop the bomb because of the importance of the target. Those people got fair warning about what they were doing.

    What I really hoped they would do while they were there is see the errors of their ways and see that these people are suffering. However this will not happen when you have the Iraqi puppets walking them around and such.
     
  12. JediBeowulf

    JediBeowulf Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2001
    Come now Ender and McCartney...you are just as "polarized" to the left as some people on these boards are polarized to the right.

    That being said, I think that if these Human Shields really wanted to accomplish anything concrete in helping the Iraqi people, they would be going out into the streets and cities and actually giving physical aide to these people. There, they would see the plight of the Iraqis, and maybe would be able to help them. That course of action would be a lot better than what they are currently doing - which is sitting in their cushy and comfy surroundings at Power Plants, watching TV and eating doritos.
     
  13. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    I think you misunderstood the argument, but by polarized I didn't mean specifically towards either side of the political spectrum, but the inherent belief that "our view is the only true and just view, and there is no middle ground on this issue" as some have previously stated.

    As such, I agree with the latter half of your post about giving physical aid, but I think most of you misunderstand the goals of the protestors. It is NOT to protect Sadham Hussain, I can't believe any of you actually believe that. More or less I believe it is to stop war, to spare the lives of innocent Iraqi civilians's who will certainly die when we "drop our bombs." This is what I am talking about, yes, their actions may indirectly support Sadham, but it doesn't seem to be their actual intention.
     
  14. chibiangi

    chibiangi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    I thought "git" was, uhm, much stronger than just "idiot" or even "dumbass".
     
  15. Abner_Doon

    Abner_Doon Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2001
    "Drop the first bombs on those human shields to get it over with, and to show we mean business to the enemy. "

    And what better way to prove to Saddam Hussein that we are his moral superior, than by first purposefully murdering peace protesters! :D

    What's sad, is that if Matt Damon, Christina Aguileira, and Orlando Bloom (Just pick some random celebrities) went there, there would be an upcry to extract them before we begin our bombardment, but since these are individuals we haven't heard of, we're more than willing to murder them.

    So, would those of you who say that these misguided individuals deserve what they get, still say that if they were hollywood icons? ?[face_plain] What about if it was a cousin of yours? What if it was Zhu Rongji, the leader of China? The Pope?

    All the pope has to do to insure that *utmost* attention is paid to only bomb military targets, and to avoid civilian casualties is hide himself somewhere in Baghdad...he could do it...why doesn't he? ?[face_plain]
     
  16. Jansons_Funny_Twin

    Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    What's sad, is that if Matt Damon, Christina Aguileira, and Orlando Bloom (Just pick some random celebrities) went there,

    Aren't you trying to make a case for not bombing them? :p
     
  17. Darth-Schwartz

    Darth-Schwartz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    some are noble some are nut balls. they're going to regret it soon anyway.
     
  18. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2000
    Try this: "Human Shields" -unwillng victims of a madman.
     
  19. POLUNIS

    POLUNIS Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Ender_Sai:

    A git and a lawbreaker can both be totally different discriptions. A git is just stupid; it does not judge whether or not they broke the law. At best, you are refraining to condemn their defense of Saddam Hussein.

    They are stupid for putting themselves in harm's way (after all, a war is coming), but there is far more to this situation. They are lawbreakers. Show me some more sophistry from International Law to let them off the hook.

    I know my bias, but will you ever admit yours? No, you keep on referring to yourself as a centrist.
     
  20. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    "They are stupid for putting themselves in harm's way"

    Not really. Under different circumstances and situations, it would be considered very honourable. Their actions are silly for the reason that being "human shields" isn't going to help the Iraqi people one single bit, and it won't stop the war.

    They would have been alot more helpful as aid workers.
     
  21. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    "And what better way to prove to Saddam Hussein that we are his moral superior, than by first purposefully murdering peace protesters!"

    No what I'm saying by this is that it shows SH we mean business that not even human shields will stop us from removing him from power. Also we and others don't need to be a moral superior to SH. If those folks are holding hands around a daggum miltary target then that should not stop us from attacking that target.

    I personally don't want them to die, but I will shed no tears for them if they get in harms way. They knew what they were doing. They knew what they were getting themselves into. What they are doing shows how strongly they feel about something. I tip my hat to them but at the same time they are foolish for doing it.

    Also if these people really wanted to safe peoples lives in Iraq then they would support the elimination of SH. It's really hypocrital of many including MADONNA to say she cares for the Iraqi people. UH!!!! These people suffer because of SH. They are treated like crap. They have no freedom. Your protecting them to stay this way?????? Personally I would rather die then to live like that. I would rather die in a bombing raid to rid my country of SH so that my family and my children can live in freedom. People think that were simply going to go in and kill everyone with our military. No, no, no were not. We are there to kill SH, and his military if they want to fight.

    I'm convinced that once we knock out all military targets within the first 48 hrs that you will see a similar situation we all saw in 91 with Iraqi troops giving up. I wouldn't be suprised to not see the Iraqi military this time to join us and show us exactly where SH is. SH has worn out his welcome with his people.

    So once again if these human shields want to do something then support the liberation of these people.
     
  22. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Don't forget, Pigfeet, these people also suffer because of devestation of war and also because of the U.S. sanctions. We don't really care about the Iraqi people either, we are as a nation are willing to starve children to get to Sadham. Sure, we provide some relief, but it seems like we are hurting them more than we are helping them. And fighting an (arguably) unnecessary war against them doesn't really help feed Iraqi children either.
     
  23. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Well I've stated several times that the sanctions need to end in Iraq. I didn't like them when they were introduced and I've seen the results. Innocent people in Iraq suffer while SH goes on and does what he wants.

    However once again Clinton during his 8 years could have done something to end the sanctions and take SH out. Bush Sr. should have done the same.

    That is why it's time SH is taken out one way or another. Innocent people will die in this war. It's a fact but it's a risk worth taking to finally free these people.

    Also note that it's not only the U.S. but the entire U.N. who keeps those sanctions in, and all should be ashamed of themselves for allowing it to go on.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralPelleaon

    GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2000
    And why do you think that they'll be more free under a new government?
     
  25. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Because at this point anything would be better than SH. That is why. Iraq will be free after he is gone. If it doesn't become a democratic country after all of this then I will be the first to speak out against what happened, but anything at this point would be better than having evil SH as ruler. That is my resolve as of right now.

    The Iraqi people need to be able to hold free elections and elect a member of their society to become president. That is what I want to happen. Will it? We will see.
     
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