"Human Shields" - are they misguided nutballs or noble humanitarians?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by JediBeowulf, Feb 21, 2003.

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  1. POLUNIS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 2
    Ender_Sai:

    Dispense with your arrogant attitude, and perhaps you will learn a thing or two. I know quite a bit about the Geneva Convention, thank you very much. Are you so forgetful that you do not recall a discussion we had a couple months or so back on human shields?

    I am pretty sure I alerted you to the rampant uses of human shields in the Arab world, and, as I predicted, you neglected to condemn their usage of it. I know you would be carrying on non-stop if the U.S. were using human shields.

    Pseudo-intellectual posturing? [sarcasm] Thank you for the fantastic rebuttal. [/sarcasm] The fact of the matter is you will not answer the considerable content found in my post. You simply evade the issues, as you are wont to do.

    McCartney:

    The sanctions are to blame for the suffering of the Iraqi people??? Saddam is, not the sanctions. The sanctions could have been easily evaded if Saddam bothered to comply with the terms demanded of him. Besides with all the money he spends on his palaces and WOMD programs, he should be able to take care of the people.
  2. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    -I see. So we place sanctions against Iraq in order to hurt Sadham Hussein, but we know that he won't really be hurt by them since he will simply pass the burden onto his own people. Then we can blame him for the suffering of his people, because hey, they are HIS people, not ours, why should we care?

    We know our sanctions do little but keep the Iraqi people impoverished, yet we continue to do them in order to hurt Sadham, although we KNOW that Sadham won't be hurt by them?
  3. Abner_Doon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 4
    The sanctions are to blame for the suffering of the Iraqi people??? Saddam is, not the sanctions. The sanctions could have been easily evaded if Saddam bothered to comply with the terms demanded of him.

    I am going to hold this gun to your Polunis, hand me your wallet/oil/WMDs and nobody will get hurt, flinch and I swear to God I'll shoot you. :mad:

    See the problem with that reasoning? (I wasn't serious by the way, just illustrating a point ;) ), all violence will be avoided if you just do what I tell you, but the fact is, I don't have the right to tell you what you can and can't do. *I* have a wallet/oil/WMDs, why should I insist that you not?

    Besides with all the money he spends on his palaces and WMD programs, he should be able to take care of the people.

    I just spent $7 of a kriffing hamburger, how much did your shoes cost? ?[face_plain] Bush just spent $426,000 on a State Function, that new suit Elton John is wearing? $96,500. You hear the estimated cost of a WTC memorial? $20,000,000. It won't house people, it won't feed the hungry, it won't clothe the naked, and it won't shelter the wartorn. Don't talk about his palaces, unless you're willing to talk about *your* countries 'palaces' in relation to its human population.
    USA WMD/Military expenditure- $400,000,000,000
    Iran spends $9 billion on its military. Iraq, Libya and north Korea each spent less than $1.5 billion. Cuba, Syria and Sudan each spent less than a billion dollars.
    The ***combined*** military spending of these "rogue" states was around $15 billion.

    The United States spends 27 times more than all its enemies put together...and before the sun sets tonight, 34,000 *children* will die of *hunger*, not disease, not war, not tyrannical despots. Where's your messiah now Flanders?
  4. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
  5. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Up until last year, our government spent 3.2% of its national budget on defense, or in the neighborhood of $150 billion each year. Bush has recently asked Congress to double that, but that still leaves ample funding for more humanitarian efforts, and the general public is hardly starving at the gates of our senators' palaces.

    If war and sactions are both off the menu, how would you deal with Saddam?
  6. JediBeowulf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    "If war and sactions are both off the menu, how would you deal with Saddam?"

    If it were up to some people (French, Germans, some people on this board) - we would bludgeon Saddam to death with continual inspections that don't work, as we've been doing for 12 years. [face_plain]
  7. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    That's a good question that the do gooders cannot answer. What do you do to stop Saddam Hussain if you don't use sanctions or force?

    Sanctions don't work. Clearly they don't. Imposed restrictions on his military (no fly zones etc) designed to protect his own people (kurds, shi-ites) have not worked. What else do you do besides use force?
  8. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    If it were up to some people (French, Germans, some people on this board) - we would bludgeon Saddam to death with continual inspections that don't work, as we've been doing for 12 years

    Well I would contend that inspections have stripped Saddam of the majority of his WOMD but that kind of debate is for the other Iraq thread.

    As for the 'Human Shields' I have immense respect for them even if I think that they are slightly nuts. They are willing to die in an attempt to protect strangers who they have never met. While I consider their actions futile I applaud them for having the courage to follow their convictions regardless of what it might lead to. As for calling them 'traitors'. This might have had some relevence in an all out war for survival between two powerful sides, it doesn't when the only possible military result is a massacre.
  9. JediBeowulf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    "As for the 'Human Shields' I have immense respect for them even if I think that they are slightly nuts...While I consider their actions futile I applaud them for having the courage to follow their convictions regardless of what it might lead to".

    I'm just curious, but do you have immense respect for the muslim terrorists that flew into the Twin Towers? They followed through with their convictions too.

    I'm not trying to flame, but I am genuinely interested in your opinion.
  10. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    While I can't speak for Darth Karde, I think ANYONE, including you, can see the difference between standing up for what you believe by defending land with your own life, and attacking thousands of innocent people and killing them with your own life.
  11. Abner_Doon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 4
    I'm just curious, but do you have immense respect for the muslim terrorists that flew into the Twin Towers? They followed through with their convictions too.


    Again, I can't speak for him, but I can tell you right now I make no secret, on these boards, or in real life, that I would be more proud to say that my son died in a hopelessly misguided, but idealistic crusade flying a 767 into Tower 1, than to say my son was working at Merril Lynch Investors on the day the planes hit.

    Between the person at the controls of the plane, and the person sitting at their desk, I have more respect for the man at the controls of the plane.

    I don't condone what he did as right, I saw he was willing to sacrifice his life for a cause he believed in, in a misguided attempt to do what he felt was right. He answered to a higher power than a dollar bill at the end of the day.
  12. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Between the person at the controls of the plane, and the person sitting at their desk, I have more respect for the man at the controls of the plane.


    You have got to be kidding me. [face_plain]
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    OK, I'm breaking exile to respond on DarthKarde's behalf.

    Of course he doesn't have respect for the bloody 9/11 terrorists!. What kind of bloody stupid question is that? ?[face_plain]

    If you have read any of DarthKarde's posts in my Terrorism Q&A thread, you'd understand he's most certainly anti-terrorist and extremely well clued up on matters pertaining to the history of terrorism.

    I appreciate that this may come as a shock to our delightful neo-con chums, but one can experss admiration at the courage displayed by human shields without being pro-human shield. To summarise at least my belief, one can have big brass balls and no brain. (And I could be talking about more than the human shields here, you'll never know.) ;)

    In short, admiring the foolhardly courage of some loopy activists does not make one in support of their lofty ideals, and nor does one have to wish their death (coughtheyknowwhotheyare]cough) in order to show one is opposed to them.

    //back to exile

    E_S
  14. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Watch out E_S! You're becoming a liberal human shield!

    ;) :p :D [face_laugh] :)


    hehe

    You just can't resist the entertaining lure of thoughtful political debate in the Senate. It is useless to resist. :)
  15. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    You have got to be kidding me.

    Oh, come on, DM. In a thread discussing people volunteering to risk their lives to defend a fascist who tortures family members in front of each other and uses rape as a tool of interrogation is it surprising that someone -- from behind the safe anonymity of an alias on a message board -- would place genocidal religious fanatics above capitalists?

    It is the voice of frustration and resentment.
  16. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    I guess I simply cannot understand the lines of thinking in the minds of some that can give any respect to a religious murderous fanatic over a man trying to work to support himself and his family (just like everyone else in the world is trying to do).

    I agree that it is the voice of resentment, and I think anti-Americanism is in play there as well.
  17. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    DM,

    Seeing as how the gentleman is posting on a message board, which requires a computer, which requires money, I'd say he's as much a capitalist as you are.

    Getting back on topic, I'd like to see our military take some of the "human shields" to see the torture chambers of the regime after we've invaded. I want to see pictures of these "peace activists" standing in the same rooms where parents watched their children hooked up to electrodes or where husbands watched their wives be serially raped by Saddam's henchmen. The "shields" faces, names, and hometowns need to be given prominent play in the media.

    Then I want to see interviews with the Congressmen from the U.S. who went to Iraq a few months ago.
  18. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
  19. p_atch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 2
    these "human shields" are idealistic and naive, that is obvious, the probable consequence of them volunteering to stand amongst the Iraqi people is that when/if war comes Saddam will probably chain them up next to AA emplacements to try and put the pilots off bombing them or some crap

    but to say they are in any way there to support Saddam is just as stupid

    Such a suggestion makes the bizzare assumption that the only possible way anyone could ever think of to help the Iraqi people while still opposing saddam would be by bombing the hell out of them

  20. Abner_Doon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 4
    //In a thread discussing people volunteering to risk their lives

    A noble task no matter what the cause.

    //to defend a fascist who tortures family members in front of each other and uses rape as a tool of interrogation

    You actually torture a man to death in front of his family members in your justice system. Is rape worse than the infinite pain of voltage shooting through your body? Or of the drugs used to make your heart burst? ?[face_plain] Your justice system is no more humane than Iraq's, so beware of calling the kettle black.

    //is it surprising that someone -- from behind the safe anonymity of an alias on a message board

    I'm not hiding behind anonymity, my phone number is 1-519-725-6406, and like I said...I make no secret of it in real life. The people I surround myself with are those that can accept that even misguided crusaders, are still crusaders.

    //would place genocidal religious fanatics

    Genocide: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

    Erm, starting with the nationals, we can illustrate the deliberate attempts to kill the North Vietnamese civilian population, moving to racial we need only look at Iraqis, Laotians, Camboadians, Koreans, Vietnamese, Palestinian, Iranian and Balkans to notice a disturbing trend, moving right along to political we can ask if we can really deny we tried to systematically exterminate communism's reachs in the world, and on to ethnic groups...don't you find it odd that so many Moslem countries are up in arms (literally) about US foreign policy?

    //above capitalists?

    Capitalists, I have no grudge against them. But you tell me who you have more respect for, Bill Gates or Che Guevara?

    //It is the voice of frustration and resentment.

    It is the voice of the minority, the voice of the people who can look outside their own borders and see the hypocrisy inside.
    ==========================================
    Anyways, I don't particularily want to be responsible for derailing this thread, so you *can* feel free to reply, but by no means need to. :)
  21. rsterling78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 5
    to say they are in any way there to support Saddam is just as stupid

    A) The "coalition of the willing" are going to remove Saddam from power by military force.

    B) The purpose of the "human shields" is to disuade the coalition from using military force against Iraq.

    C) Therefore, the "human shields" are indeed supporting the Saddam regime, even if they are doing so unwittingly.
  22. p_atch Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 2
    i never said they wouldnt be, in fact i said that being used by Saddam to shield military istallations could be probable result of their actions

    but saying that they went there to support Saddam or to give hum comfort or support is daft, they went there to give the Iraqi people who are going to be under the bombs dropping comfort and support

    thats pretty brave if u ask me and would be an admirable course of action were it not for the likelihood of a bastard such as Saddam moving them from civillian areas into military areas once bombs start dropping
  23. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I'm just curious, but do you have immense respect for the muslim terrorists that flew into the Twin Towers? They followed through with their convictions too.

    I'm not trying to flame, but I am genuinely interested in your opinion.


    Fistly thanks to those who have answered this on my behalf. Secondly I would have thought that the difference between giving up your life in attempt to protect others and giving up your life in an attempt to take the lives of innocents is rather obvious.

    I guess I simply cannot understand the lines of thinking in the minds of some that can give any respect to a religious murderous fanatic over a man trying to work to support himself and his family

    Try and get this through your skull. The motivations of these people are not based on helping Saddam, call them naive, stupid, misguided or whatever you want but stop using crap about them wanting to help Saddam. They want to help ordinary Iraqi's.

    Getting back on topic, I'd like to see our military take some of the "human shields" to see the torture chambers of the regime after we've invaded. I want to see pictures of these "peace activists" standing in the same rooms where parents watched their children hooked up to electrodes or where husbands watched their wives be serially raped by Saddam's henchmen. The "shields" faces, names, and hometowns need to be given prominent play in the media.

    This may surprise you but they are aware aware of the horrors committed by Saddam Hussein and his regime.
  24. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Watch out E_S! You're becoming a liberal human shield!

    :eek: :p

    I should point out that even by your definition, the target I was shielding is hardly "liberal" - are ya DarthKarde.

    Still, for pointing that out DM you get a :p
    :D
    E_S
  25. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I should point out that even by your definition, the target I was shielding is hardly "liberal" - are ya DarthKarde.

    Very true Ender I am certainly not liberal.
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