Senate Humanity's Relationship with Work (aka the Bootstrap Myth)

^ugh, I don't remember ever having seen that commercial. its americentric arrogance really disgusts and embarrasses me, tbh. it's funny though, the persona of the guy and the text of what he says almost comes off like it's partially intended as parody (though maybe i'm just projecting...).

 

I disagree Wocky.

This is the problem with Americans being literally deaf, blind, and dumb to other cultural perspectives - this subconscious layering of the American experience and value system over the whole world, as if America is the baseline and most people wish to be this way - and therefore are relatable to your struggle.

The reason capitalism works, and this requires a basic understanding so I won't hold the incoming follies against you on those grounds - is it touches a basic human emotion of reward and recognition. People rarely jump to another company for $5000 a year more, here, because if they feel valued and important it's worth more than the cash.

If you're going to cite an American based example of people holding down two jobs, don't. It's an outlier, so basing a discussion around the worst examples in capitalism is useless.

In the Netherlands, less than 1% of people work more than 50hrs a week. The same roughly is true across Denmark, Sweden, etc - the work life balance is a real thing. These people enjoy high standards of living, global best practice social standards, and it's not like global giants don't emanate from these countries (ING, ABN-Amro, Rabobank from Netherlands alone).

It's possible to have balance, you just happen to live in a terrible country that's been at war with the forces that promote balance for centuries. And if these people work for a living, and beat the US on every metric except "number of warmonger presidents elected since 2008 (100%! USA! USA! USA!)" or "most unequal developed nation" - including oh I don't know, the world happiness index - maybe it's time to conclude it's you guys?

 

Quick question - how much parental leave, paid and unpaid, do you get in the US?

 

No one disagrees that the US is bad in this respect.

But it's both lazy and self-congratulatory to end the discussion there. Looking at global historic trends, the amount of time that we spend working has increased. The nature and place of our work has also shifted in rather dramatic fashion. This has consequences no matter the specific society we find ourselves in. Treating this as a mere question of benefits misses the much larger debate about what work should mean to us, and where we should find meaning in life.

 

It has, but I blame you lot for that sorry. Last year, I was re-reading one of the Fleming James Bond novels, where Bond described his office routine as 10-4. I thought that was a bit light, but research supported the conclusion that work hours have dramatically increased over the last few decades. The 9-5 day, then 8-6, and worse, originated in the US and was exported globally with management consultants and M&As pushing American management practice. "Efficiency" became god.

Again, America lags behind and ruins good things. See, Wocky? See?

@anakinfansince1983, that's not "standard". It's substandard bull****. More chauvanistic, outragous nonsense.

We get paid parental leave from the state and from work. I'm taking 3 months off fully paid, starting last week of June. My partner's had 9 months off at half pay (govt + salary). I could do six months half pay comfortably, provided I'm primary carer.

This is pretty much aligned to Europe. Meaning, it's standard.

 

It makes me angry for reasons I can't quite franky pin down. Vague mumblings about idiocy and injustice.

I mean, we understand that the economy benefits from parents taking paid parental leave, yeah? Like outputs are enhanced, society benefits - there are literally no downsides.

Critque of capitalism really should be a crticism of American culture, since capitalism has been ****ed as much as anything by it.

 

Got some bootstrappers here too.

I was at a birthday party last week. Met a racist.
Usually I'm just relaxed and easy in social situations, but now I was a live Senate SuperWatto. Very unpleasant.
The conversation was about the people from Turkish and Moroccan descent in this country, who aren't as prominently featured in the upper echelons of society as they numerically should be. I think I phrased that in a way that everyone on the political spectrum should be able to agree upon. But then we turned to the causes. I saw a cause in their descending from immigrants who were shipped in en masse to perform cheap labour. I saw a cause in white people not giving them a fair chance.
But no! said the lady in the corner. They have equal chances, by law. All they need to is get to work. There is also discrimination towards women, but do you see me complaining about it? They just have to get over whatever they perceive is racist.
So I said, well, any grocery chain store I walk into is manned by Moroccan teenagers. Any bakery I walk into is manned by a white teenager. Do you think that's because the Moroccans don't want to work at better-paying bakeries?
She said, where I live it's not that divided. She moved out of Amsterdam to the countryside, where it's mostly white people.
Then her husband chimed in. He said: we should be more like America.
I was like WTF!
Next time I'll stick to discussing the weather.

 

Ironic that you could have thrown something Wilders is famous for at them - doe eens normaal, man!

 

Caught on the spot. "We should be more like America".
On here, you can research before you reply. But live, you have to have your **** together. So I blurted out: where one in four black men go to prison?
That ended it. And the mood. People gaping awkwardly. Everybody surely doubting the claim.

I just looked it up. It's one in three.

 

There is a perception that American society accepts and integrates immigrants more easily into their fold because they are all immigrants. To be fair, a lot of immigrants who have lived both places report the same about their own experience. That's probably what he was referring to.

 

But imagine: birthday parties all over the world, all peppered with people talking about how their local minority just needs to pick themselves up by the bootstraps. For some mysterious reason, different minorities in different countries have one thing in common: they're lazy.

 

My point is, you seized on the one and only actually positive thing he said. His answer that you should be more like America was a counter to your assertion that society locks immigrants out of the higher strata. He was likely agreeing with your premise, and offered as a solution that you should be more like the way he perceives America to be: more accepting, and better at integrating immigrants.

 

The point of this thread wasn't necessarily US vs RoW or Left vs Right but more to example the social, political, and philosophical relationship humans have with the concept of work. Yes, politics and countries are involved, but I'd hate to see the thread devolve into yet another Thunderdome.

 

Well of course most people's jobs are a drudge , they do it for the money , some have a vocation I guess , and some don't need money and just do what they want .

But I think most people like being required , like just having a job that tells them what to do and not think about it . Industry has changed so much in the west tho , used to be a certain industry would be the centre of a town and community , now jobs are more transient .

.

 

With the rise of robots, our relationship will drastically change. Humans are no longer required for certain tasks and we've become obsolete; a lifeless void looking for purpose in our lives. Work use to fill it, but the 45 hour week is becoming very rare. Now, thanks to the changes in labour and how we define it, humanity is at crossroads and surplus to requirements.

 

There's a lot of cultural pressure in wealthy countries to optimize leisure time too, not just work and careers. If you don't optimize your career and your payscale, how will you ever be able to optimize your leisure time?

 

On that:

https://www.economist.com/news/spec...fare-and?fsrc=scn/fb/te/pe/ed/reeducatingrita

 

@CT-867-5309
It's kind of funny, but the left loves talking about the value and importance of the middle class. Unless a conservative is proud to be middle class. Then it's arrogant. O...k...?

Look, If a guy is out in nature living off the land, building his own home, hunting his own food, and living life how he wants, that's a man. I admire him. Even tho he isn't making a dime. Who cares?

But...

He's taking care of himself.

Here's what I don't respect: Someone who thinks he is too good for the rest of us and doesn't want to participate in society yet insists that he be provided for. **** that guy. Hard. All day long.

I'm fine with someone being a grasshopper. Dig it, have fun with it. But if they are living at home and mommy is paying their phone bill, I'll make a moral judgement about them. And they'll have to live with it.

I'm not talking about people with disabilities living with their parents or people making sacrifices to take care of their aging parents. Don't get this twisted, as many here like to do when I say something that everyone knows is true but doesn't want to accept. I'm talking about people who are able but not willing to work and expecting society to pick up the tab for their life.

I understand that not everyone is materialistic. But a lack of desire for material gains is a poor excuse for not taking care of yourself.

Sure, I wish I didn't have to work. All I ever want to do is play video games, read comic books and watch pro wrestling! If only I could win the lottery! But until then I have an obligation to give more to this society than I take...to leave this life with a better than even ledger with society and her people.

And I'll judge anyone who doesn't share that desire. That pride in oneself and one's own country.

And yes, I'm proud. Though I now know differently, if a 12 year old J-Rod could see me now, he'd think I'm wealthy beyond imagination and he wouldn't be able to wait to grow up! A new Harley. A new(ish) F-150! A game room covered in Star Wars stuff! Any and all video games I've ever wanted!

And that's just the physical rewards!

A beautiful wife! Three grandbabies! A big beautiful house where we all live as one huge family! That's because our daughter Brit, her husband Jon, my wife Kim and I worked tirelessly to set things up this way. So Brit get to stay home with the grandbabies and everyone is taken care of. No daycare. No worrying about the babies. Just a big happy family! That's beyond simple "happiness." That's satisfaction!

So be satisfied with your life. I'm cool with that. Just don't ask for someone else to give you a check to live how you want.

 

When I say something, everyone knows it's true, AND they accept it. I have that way with people.

 

That's all you got?

 

Is Brit disabled, or looking after aging parents?