CT Hypothetical: it's May 1980, you just saw ESB, what are your theories?

To this day I find the latter conversation very hard to watch!

 

At the time I thought I was protecting you, but I can see now that it was wrong of me to lie and I'm sorry.

...would've been good.

 

I think even Luke would agree with this. He has such an incredulous look on his face when he says "A certain point of view???" like he knows that old Ben is trying to pull a fast one on him and he's just not buying it. I feel like the movie is trying its hardest not to call Obi-Wan a liar so that the audience doesn't think negatively of him. And the funny thing is, it actually worked for me when I was a kid. I just foolishly nodded when I saw that, and thought "Yeah I guess he has a good point; the truth really does depend on your point of view"....lol. To be young and naive. Nowadays, I can't believe that Luke lets him off the hook so easily. One simple "I'm sorry" would've really strengthened Obi-Wan's character and would've shown that while people can sometimes make mistakes, the mature and responsible people own up to their mistakes. It would have been a good lesson for the kids. Instead, we got a wily ghost who tried and failed to cover up his lie with more deceptive language, and he wasn't even called out on it!

 

theMaestro

I wholeheartedly agree. As it was a metaphor Kenobi had been using in hindsight in ANH, he could have just said so (especially given Lucas established familiarity with the works of Joseph Campbell and in particular "metaphors").

Add to this that moral concepts like "good" depend on the personal point of view where in contrast "truth" is always objective (e.g. if Car A crashed into Car B you may have several witnesses on the street corners / different points of view but they should all report truthfully that A crashed into B. No different point of view is going to change a fact).

Or, better, yet, Kenobi should have just said "Yoda already told you all there is to know" (i.e. not ready you were for the truth, yet). Period.

I still find it hard to believe Sir Alec Guinness delivered these lines. Admittedly, he didn't think too well of Star Wars but this would have been a once in a life time good opportunity to tell Lucas he could write that stuff, but that you really shouldn't say it onscreen.

 

It's been a long time, but I think the only big view I'd formed was "Vader's lying". I figured Han would be back, and I had no idea who the "other" was.

One hypothetical I wouldn't mind seeing as a YouTube video is this: What if the Internet as it is now existed in early 1980? And, with that in mind, what would be the fan reaction to this:

 

Even as I watch that now, it's mind blowing compared with ANH. Wish they'd finished the saber fx though

 

Also the AT-ATs were shooting blue laser bolts!

 

I can just hear the comments and questions now...

"Who's that creature Luke's pointing his gun at?"
"Lando Calrissian? Who's that?"
"Han's flirting with Leia?"
"Luke and Vader are dueling!!!"
"Did you see those walking machines?"
"Are those new Rebel fighters?"
"What happened to Threepio?"
"What happened to Han?!"
"I zoomed in and freeze-framed Luke in that pipe. Where's his other hand?!"

Oh, and the Vivaldi and Vader breath were great touches.

 

Well we did have the Internet in 1980. But almost no one used it.

 

I was only four but I know it was my actual first Star Wars movie (mom says I sat on her lap and ate and slept during ANH) and I don't remember much except I loved it though I was scared of most scenes.
If I could go back:
Vader must be lying, Emperor is very interesting and scary, Han must be rescued! No idea who other is, love that Yoda, man Luke got jacked up! Can't wait three years!!

 

I always believed Vader , the scene was too powerful to be retracted .

I thought there was a good chance Luke would die , and that the 'other' would replace him as the main character , generally I thought ROJ would be quite a dark movie .

.

 

I wasn't around in 1980, but between the time I saw TESB and ROTJ, I was sure Vader was telling the truth. I mean, it would be lame if it turned out to be a lie.
My theory about the emperor would be that he was also a fallen Jedi,
possibly from the same generation as Yoda. As for the other hope, it could have been any of the main characters, but Leia is implied in the scene where she senses Luke in trouble. I didn't expect Luke and Leia to be siblings though, and I would have thought that they ended up together, since Luke is the main hero.

 

I wish I could remember seeing ESB for the first time- pretty envious of those who can remember! I saw RotJ in the cinema when I was 5 and have no recollection if I'd seen any of the others before that...maybe I saw then after...in any case I saw them all before I was 6.

Answering the OP, I suppose it would depend on my age. Older, I would say I'd believe Vader, but younger (say under 10?) think Vader is lying. I remember reading that's why Lucus added the scene in RotJ with Luke and Vader- to clarify/confirm to the younger audience that Vader was in fact Luke's father.

 

We had "zoom in" back in '80?

 

*edit to my post earlier* the scene that Lucas added was between Luke and Yoda- not Luke and Vader. I read that Lucas thoughts kids would believe Yoda (if they'd had any doubts about what Vader said in ESB).

 

As I posted earlier quite some while ago, there was the popular theory that Boba Fett could have been Luke's real father or a relative, because of two reasons:

• Boba Fett noticed that Luke had arrived (his head turned into Luke's direction) but actually went along with the stormtroopers a little further only to return himself and fire a couple of warning shots at Luke
• Boba Fett somehow chose the Avenger as the Star Destroyer where he wanted to get ejected along with the space garbage. There was the theory that he (or she) somehow noticed Leia's presence aboard the Falcon, hence this (or her) strange decision

I'm pretty certain, had the first ESB draft of Leigh Brackett been in circulation in fandom, that many would have assumed that Boba Fett was actually Luke's original sister "Nalleh" who was mentioned in that draft.

And I wouldn't exclude that this could have been on George Lucas' mind - after all, in ROJ we saw a female lead character disguised as an apparently male bounty hunter...

 

Back in 1980 I was only 7 but, unlike today, there were spoilers aplenty as I had already read half the Marvel adaptation of the film so I expected a film like the one being printed in Star Wars weekly. Did I expect it to be like Star Wars? Well, again unlike today, with no VCRs or internet, the means to see SW were very limited i.e. the cinema, and I had only seen SW once. ONCE! So my expectations were wide open.

I loved the film and wanted to have force powers. Although I had a few SW figures, I think this was the time I really got into being a SW fan. Incidentally, I didn't get to see the film again until 1985 when I could rent it at the video store. And then I saw it a 3rd time in 1988 when it was finally broadcast on TV.

But speculation was rife about all sorts as we waited for the next film. Was Vader lying? Was Leia the other - the film seemed to imply that, but could that be a red herring? Was Lando in the next one and what would his role be? At the time I hoped Vader wasn't lying as I thought it would be really cool if he was Luke's Dad!

 

I actually thought it was pretty clear the other was Leia. Luke basically reveals that by calling to her to rescue him from the base of Cloud City.

Although I can see how some might think that was just a form of mind control he was using.

That's partly why ESB was so good. It left so many things to your imagination rather than simply spelling them out.

 

I totally thought Vader was lying to Luke. Even when Luke was wondering on the Falcon why Ben didn't tell him and he called out "father", I just overlooked it. I thought Vader was just using the dark side to trick him.

The "other" I had no idea.

I love this movie.

 

Not hypothetical. It's 1983, I've just seen ESB. I don't believe that Vader is really Luke's father. It's a trap. Possibly. This is based on not having the knowledge that Vader is not a robot and that he didn't always wear that mad costume)

In the next movie, Luke is mad at Ben and is lured to the darkside by the lie. But Obi Wan, whom Vader has no idea is around as a ghost, intervenes at the last moment, reveals beyond any doubt who Luke's father really is (or isn't) and does battle with Vader long enough for Luke to recover and defeat Vader without using the darkside.

Vader did still want to become the new emperor in my mind, but he gets away in the midst of all the confusion of the Vader/Luke/Ben confrontation.

Although I did have a back up theory that Vader was Luke's father similar to the whole "point of view" but it was quite different. Ben would discover that Luke's father didn't die at the same time and way Luke does, somehow.

 

Why did you wait until 1983 to see ESB?

 

Because I wasn't taken to the cinema for the first time until I was four years old 1982 (Tron/Snow White/ET and, err, Condorman) . I had seen Star Wars on TV, and got to see ESB just before I was taken to see ROTJ.

 

Ah. Well that makes sense.