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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

I am starting to support Kyp's faction . . .

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Gatherer, Mar 14, 2001.

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  1. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 18, 1999
    Rokangus...
    "has also been at least as arrogant as Jacen. Walking out of the meeting in the Conquest spoiler chapter did nothing to help this. If Kyp wants his ideas to be recognized and accepted by Luke (the guy who happens to be in charge)..."

    I think there is the crux of this facet of the discussion. Luke is _NOT_ the one in charge. Luke is an experienced Jedi Master. However, this new Jedi Order is not a dictatorship. There is no Jedi Council that Luke is chairman of. He and Kyp are equals. Therefore, as much as anyone thinks that either Kyp or Jacen are arrogant, the height of arrogance would be Luke actually _THINKING_ he is in charge. In DT, he referenced that he thought one of his problems was that there _WASN'T_ anyone in charge.

    "Kyp and Luke have something similar to an boss/employee relationship. Luke ultimately calls the shots, and while Kyp is free to offer suggestions, he needs to remember that he is an employee and not the bossman. Otherwise, I fear a corporate split amongst the ranks of the Jedi."

    This model isn't true to what we know about the Jedi - past and present. There has always been a Council. In the past, it was in the form of a major Jedi conclave which was held to discuss important events. In the PT, it is a Council. In NJO, there is no "boss." Therefore, while Luke has trained Kyp, Kyp has since gone on to master the art beyond what Luke could teach him. They are equals. I think a better example would be the business relationship between a College Professor and one of his PHD students who has since graduated and now works at a different school. The two are colleagues and equals.

    That doesn't mean that one can't know more than the other (or vice versa). It just means they are on equal terms. Kyp gives Luke the respect he does because of past history. Don't confuse that respect for subserviance.
     
  2. Rokangus

    Rokangus Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    That may be true Ghengis, but as far as the GFFA is concerned, Luke has a kind of "founding father" status in the new breed of Jedi. Normal people and Jedi alike look to Luke for leadership and guidance. Luke and Kyp might be on equal terms, but Luke is the one I see calling the meetings, handing out assignments, and giving guidance to the Jedi. That was my point.
     
  3. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    In DT, Luke officially gave up the need to be "in charge," but even Kyp called Luke "first in a group of equals." As such, Luke is ~not~ in charge, and as such, Kyp has no need to follow Luke's "orders."

    That having been said, although Luke isn't in charge, he ~is~ the most experienced. He doesn't give orders, but he does give advice. Although I don't fault Kyp for not being subservient to his former Master, I ~do~ find fault with Kyp for not heeding his former Master's wisdom.

    Impatience has ever been Kyp's shortcoming...
     
  4. Muke_Skywalker

    Muke_Skywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2000
    If Jacen Solo was my son I'd kick his lazy ass right the Hell out of the galaxy.
     
  5. Darth Cerberus

    Darth Cerberus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 1999
    Getting back to that question I REALLY want answered ...

    Gandolf, you misunderstood what I wrote. Jacen DID sense the deaths in NR, but NOT in AoC:JE. WHY? He was just a small boy in NR, and an experienced padawan in AoC. So why did he not sense the deaths of all those Hapans?


     
  6. Resh

    Resh Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2001
    "Jacen DID sense the deaths in NR, but NOT in AoC:JE. WHY? He was just a small boy in NR, and an experienced padawan in AoC. So why did he not sense the deaths of all those Hapans?"

    In NR, the deaths were on the same planet he was on. In AoC, they were in a different system.
     
  7. Darth Cerberus

    Darth Cerberus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 1999
    So? Luke and his more experienced padawans on Yavin felt the explosion on Coruscant in NR. Obi-Wan felt Alderann's destruction although he was in another system. If Jacen has a fraction of the ability he seems to think he has, I don't think it's asking too much to expect that he feel the catastrophic loss of life that he was partially responsible for.


     
  8. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Merkurian...
    "That having been said, although Luke isn't in charge, he ~is~ the most experienced. He doesn't give orders, but he does give advice."

    Not true. There are at least several Jedi who have more experience than Luke. And, ff WotC would ever get off their butts and start using some WEG characters, there's the possibility of a whole lot more.
     
  9. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 14, 2000
    More experiance than Luke? You're joking, right?
     
  10. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
  11. Jedi_Cosmos

    Jedi_Cosmos Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Jedi Merkurian, I *completely* agree with your analysis on Jacen.

    About Luke vs. Kyp, I think that both are right in some aspects. They need to find a middle ground. Like in the chapter, it said that if the Jedi were a planet, then Luke would be the North pole, Kyp would be the South, and the rest of the Jedi would be scattered in between, ripping the equator. What needs to happen is that Kyp and Luke have to find a way for them *boht* to be at the equator. They won't do very well without working together, since now the Jedi are being hunted down.
     
  12. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    "If Jacen has a fraction of the ability he seems to think he has, I don't think it's asking too much to expect that he feel the catastrophic loss of life that he was partially responsible for."

    ROFLOL Cerberus!!!

    As far as the alleged more experienced Jedi, we have Kam Solusar, who was a Padawan during the Purge. There's also the Easter Bunn--aaaah ~ahem~ I mean, Ikrit, who pulled a 1000+ year Rip Van Winkle; we also have Vima Da Boda AKA Crouching Crone, Hidden Jedi who turned on & tuned out for about 50 years or so. There's also King Empatajayos Brand, who bore a curious resemblance to V.I.N.cent from "the Black Hole" (oh Lordy, I just dated myself!) Oh wait, he's dead... Then there's Ood Bnar AKA Treebeard who decided to say "Hello there! I'm the Long Lost Jedi of the Week(tm). I've been in suspended animation for about 4000 years now, but I'll just blow myself up killing this Dark Jedi mook that the two of you could take out on your own."

    More experienced Jedi ~snort~ Indeed...

    EDIT: sorry guys, I've been a little on the surly side for the last couple o' days, and the Long Lost Jedi of the Week(tm) is one of the things that bugs me about EU, along with Jacen's 'tude.

    Jacen's attitude makes for good storytelling; Jedi crawling out of the woodwork does not. But that's just MHO.
     
  13. Quiwan

    Quiwan Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Jedi_Cosmos

    I agree that they need to find some middle ground, but I'd say they should be closer to the Tropic of Capricorn than the equator.
     
  14. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Jedi Merkurian...
    "Jedi crawling out of the woodwork does not."

    However, the fact remains that indeed there are more experienced Jedi within the NJO as well as in the woodwork just waiting to crawl out.
     
  15. Jedi_Cosmos

    Jedi_Cosmos Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Quiwan - Yeah, you're right with the situation aspect, but I meant philosophically, the Jedi should all be balanced within the Force. Only then can they be able to fight with a full advantage.

    Jacen has been doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I mean, if he was afraid of turning to the dark side, it was right of him to stop using the Force. But when he said that if he died, people would pay attention :eek: I felt like smacking him upside the head. Although he's cautious of the dark side, his pride is really, um, not good.

    Anakin might have to take the offensive to save Tahiri, but if he doesn't do it anger. And that's gonna be pretty tough, especially when he finds out that Tahiri's gonna be turned into a Jedi-Vong...I can't wait to read what happens! :)
     
  16. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Luke & Kyp:

    Kyp is looking to be pro-active in the short-term, but sees helping the refugees as less than he is capable of. His solution: Engage the Vong.

    The problem is that's it. He and his group fight and kill Vong and there are no shortage of replacements for the ones killed.

    Luke, is looking for the perfect solution, long-term, to enable the war to be won, the Vong efeated and the Jedi sorted out. Not surprisingly, he has not yet found it.

    We know Luke is right to do this, rationally, but emotionally Kyp articulates our sentiments perfectly: How can we not act, given the power we have to do so, to act more assertively toward the Vong?

    Luke's probable answer: When that action is at best a temporary and stop-gap solution, combined with the fact that we can do better and solve the problem.

    It's a difference of perspective and ambition, Luke's being the greater but less realisable in the present (post-BP) situation.

    Regards

    Jedi Ben
     
  17. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Rise, my friend...
     
  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jan 10, 2000
    There are long-term solutions around but Luke's too much of a pacifistic schmuck to think about using biological weapons to wipe out the Vong infestation and kill all their toys. Also, he disapproved of Daskarekor's (Sp?) superweapon search, when such a powerful weapon would be quite useful to the NR.

    And helping evacuate refugees is the sign of a defeatist mentality. The more the Vong advance, the more refugees there will be to deal with and the more taxed the NR will be to find planets willing to absorb them and to provide for them. A line has to be drawn across the stars somewhere.

    Sacrificing a couple million refugees to save a galaxy of trillions is an insignificant price to pay.
     
  19. Pellaeon69187

    Pellaeon69187 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2000
    I liked Kyp in The Jedi Academy trilogy but he is starting to get on my nerves now.
    I don't think it's right for Kyp's faction to go around acting better than everyone else. They should dress like regular folk, not flashy, and act like normal people. They also shouldn't show off their powers and make people think that they are wizards, but act like Luke and his small amount of Jedi who are loyal to him.
    And I think ALL Jedi should obay Luke. He is their founder, teacher, master.
    But I must admit that Luke isn't doing all he can to stop the Vong and that is also starting to bug me.
    But you must admit it, Luke has still got what it takes. He proved that in the amazing scene with the lightsabers in each hand and throwing stuff at those warriors with the Force.
     
  20. LanceJade

    LanceJade Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I think that Luke is really looking at the idea that you cant put a price on life. He isnt going to sacrifice a few to save the rest. Luke isn't like that.

    On the other hand, I believe that weather we sacrifice them or not, they are lost. The Vong are a poison to the force and the galaxy and most things it touches are dead. The only way to remove them is to destroy them. They will assimilate or destroy anything that steps in there way. There is no peaceful coexistance.

    The Jedi were destroyed by the Sith because of inaction (according to various EU sources - probably going to change when we see E2 or E3). The Jedi and the galaxy will be destroyed if they are hestitant.

    While I hate to say it, I have to side with Kyp. I would prefer to hold back and wait, but if I were there, its time for the Jedi to strike.
     
  21. MonolithX

    MonolithX Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2001
    "Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things." --Yoda

    nuff said
     
  22. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2000
    Yoda's ramblings are outdated and his endless prattle to Luke has seriously damaged Luke's ability to make rational decisions.
     
  23. princess_of_naboo

    princess_of_naboo Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    I totally agree with Grand Admiral Wettengel.
     
  24. General_H_Storm

    General_H_Storm Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Luke's character has been damaged too much. The old Luke probably would have had a battle plan in action right now :(
     
  25. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 15, 1999
    Okay I will respond to ANY MAN who has a statement for this.....

    1. Battle plans:

    Okay you have a thousand ships which you don't have the resources to attack because your goverments refuse to attack it.

    You contact those who have fleets...
    Let's see Empire-Tried that
    Let's see Hapans-Tried that
    Corporate Sector-HA!

    Okay Leia's done pretty well for herself lacking a fleet.

    2. Superweapons

    Okay this is going to sound stupid Wettigel but THERE IS NO OTHER EYE OF PALAPTINE! If there was it wouldn't have been sitting around for 50 years because there wouldn't be another Callista to stop it.

    It would also have been extremely outdated tech!

    It would be 50 years old! That means someone finds a WW2 Battleship....oooooo scary! Yes it'll pound stuff but the current Star Destroyers could pound it easily into cinders.

    The Death Star would be fun but finding the million men who could operate it would be difficult.

    especially since only two were made and it's relatively easy to believe theres no chance the galaxy is missing YET ANOTHER storehouse, Battle Moon, plague, Hidden fleet, or the like that would be of any use.

    More precisley the Twielik Jedi was being driven by INSANE grief to waste her time on false missions!

    So heck yeah I'd go after her and nock some sense into her.

    Oh and on the off chance they found the Second Eye of Palpatine the thing would probably be iether A.Torn up by Jawas or B.Resume blasting planets of innocent people.

    3. Bio-Warfare

    Okay the Ithorians are ALREADY working on bio-warfare options here guys but the fact they're race is now entirely refugees with all their equipment and labratories and Balforr trees they're presumably having alittle difficulty finding time to create a plague which

    A. Will not kill every sentient being in the galaxy when released

    B. Will not wipe out a planet's ecology but will wipe out a Vong army.

    C. Will be able to kill quickly enough the Vong despite their psyiology is completely unknown save through a very small group of autopsies, that they won't be able to heal themselves when they are infected with what appears to vastly more advanced medical and genetics knowledge.

    4. Logistics

    Now 100 Jedi vs. a Group of warships that are immune to "force tossing" okay...well this is the shortest offensive of all time.

    Jedi can kill 4 experienced Vong warriors at once on a good day it seems without getting their arse's handed to them but a large number have died facing the multitude.

    The Jedi simply put cannot do very much against the Vong more than most soldiers, so they have to use their head.

    5. LUKE IS BLOODY DOING EVERYTHING HE CAN!!!

    I repeat what more do you expect the man to do, he's gone from one end of the galaxy to the next trying to save people and single handidly (okay his family helped) took out the Prateorite vong fleet.

    His faction (Corran) killed Shai too.

    Jimminy.

    -Charlemagne
     
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