I, Claudius - An Analysis of Nero

That's a fair point, as that is something Agrippinilla did do. She has Lollia Paulina on trial for witchcraft and had Calphurnia killed as well.

 

Fair points around, but I'm with Zaz on this one. And yes, in the book 'Nilla has Claudius's other favored females killed. 'Nilla certainly would have thought killing them was "justified", but let's be honest, murdering Calpurnia was purely out of spite.

This is why I think she tends to resemble her mother Agrippina more than she resembles Livia. The portrayal of Agrippina throughout the series was one of somebody who was intelligent and influential, but also given to impulsive actions and outbursts. And that was a snowballing trend, in a way. Julia >>> Agrippina >>> Agrippinilla. 'Nilla might be the culmination of the Agrippa line's gradual move to the dark side (with Nero as the apex, so to speak).

But it seems that this fiery streak just won't leave the bloodline. 'Nilla strikes me as more calculating and less impulsive than her mother, but not so far advanced that she doesn't have those nasty flashes of temper. I'm thinking of her belligerence toward Britannicus during the dinner scene. (Another classic dinner scene.) She's already got Claudius favoring Nero in all things, so it seems to me that she's merely "spiking the football" with provoking Britannicus into his outburst. I can't see Livia doing something like that. But I could totally see Agrippina or even Postumus behaving like that. All in the family, if you ask me.

 

Did Livia ever have to provoke people to act to her advantage? I'm not sure if she did, she just used the way they acted normally to her own advantage. Like Livilla tricking Postumous. One difference between them is that Agrippinilla seems to particularly like seeing the people she hates suffer, a malevolent streak within her. Livia doesn't really care that much about anyone to enjoy people's pain. If they're against her plans she simply eliminates them, one way or another. And the best way she did this was just allowing people to hang themselves by their own actions. Agrippinilla is far more of an instigator than Livia. Which is why I like Livia better, as she sits back and makes it look all too easy.

 

Livia would do it if she profited by it.

I'm afraid I don't agree that Nilla is like her mom. Agrippina was a serious, virtuous woman. She is made much more aggressive in the TV adaptation, but still, she's not evil, and her outbursts are a function of frustration, despair and grief, not temper.

Agrippinilla is evil, and without Livia's saving graces. She *is* spiteful, and she *is* mean. Even so, she believes she is doing all for her son, a la Livia. But Nero is not Tiberius. He is quite prepared to kill his mother, much to her pained surprise.

 

Agrippinilla is also rather vindictive and petty, evidenced by what she did to Lollia and Calphurnia.

Okay guys, question time: the incest with Nero, why?

 

I'm betting she believed that if he slept with a woman he could be 'cured' of homosexuality. There was a notorious recent case of the same thing--Barbara and Tony Baekeland. He murdered her, too.

 

WHAT?

Firstly, homosexuality as we know it didn't exist until the time of Christianity. People weren't classified under their sexual preferences, it just happened and anything negative towards what we call homosexuality was directed towards women (and I think that might have only been the Greeks).
Secondly, it wasn't seen as morally or medically wrong, just rather bad taste. Many Romans would have subscribed to Plato's belief that the highest form of a relationship was between two men, but on a non-sexual level and more of a meeting of minds. Claudius expresses similar views in the book. He acknowledges that it happens but he just doesn't like it.

Have you seen the "oysters and snails" scene in Spartacus, Zaz? That's actually rather accurate.

 

Yeah, I have actually.

I looked it up, and he does not seem to be gay (in which I was misled by the screen depictions), but it doesn't mention incest, either. At least not with Nero. Caligula is another story; though I don't know if he had a yen for all of his sisters, or just Dusilla.

 

The novel doesn't mention incest, but the TV series and history does. You can't ignore that scene between Aggippinilla and Nero when Nero sends Pallas out of the room.

 

Do all the histories mention it?

 

I think it was just Tacitus, which makes it not very reliable if it's just one source.

 

She's very overbearing, but it doesn't seem likely.

 

It seems more likely later on, after he became emperor and she wanted some sort of hold over him. That's when I heard it happened anyway.

 

Seneca and the people around Nero *hated* Agrippinilla, though, so this may be a canard. I'm not sure she'd do this unless there was a reason, and how would it give her power over him, anyway? He was having affairs all over the place.

 

It means that she is still valued, technically. So he doesn't kill her.

 

He discarded wives and mistresses all the time.

 

Yeah, but discarding his mother would take a bit of work, you know.

Why am I even making this disgusting argument?

 

Most mothers are hard to get rid of for other reasons.

 

The copy of Claudius The God that I have says as much, in the final epilogue. By resorting to incest, 'Nilla is able to hold some level of control over Nero. I guess that's logical in a deranged, perverted way.

I've heard it said that Romans particularly saw sexual interplay, be it hetero- or homosexual, as an exercise in power dynamics: there's always a "top" and always a "bottom". If you were the "top", then it was obvious that you were in control. If you ended up as the "bottom", then you were clearly in the subordinate position, which could be carried over beyond the bedroom and into everyday life.

Seems to me that 'Nilla was desperate enough to gamble on using that power dynamic to bring Nero back under her thumb, and she was probably hoping that Nero would "know his place" as the "submissive". But he's already drunk with power at this point, so I have to wonder why she thought he'd really remain fascinated with the concept of mother-son incest for long. He doesn't strike me as having that much of an attention span when it comes to other people's needs/desires.

 

I don't think they even occur to him, he's a spoiled putulant boy, but we'll get to him when we're good and ready.

 

Won't be able to get to Britannicus until after the weekend, have some stuff on and I want to watch the last epsiode again, as he really only appears in that.

 

Not much to go on in either the book or the TV series.

 

I know, I'm more going to focus on the last episode and Claudius' relationship with him.

 

Britannicus

I may be only a child, but I'm not blind and I'm not a stone. - Britannicus
No matter who your father may have been, you are now my son and I love you more than anyone in the world. - Claudius
I want my chance to rule, and rule Rome as it should be ruled. If you love me, give me that chance. - Britannicus

History vs Fiction

Britannicus, born Tiberius Claudius Germanicus and later having the name Britannicus after Claudius' conquest of Britain. He was the second son and third child of Claudius, and the only son of Messalina. He had a half brother Drusullus the son of Claudius' first wife Urgulanilla, killed before he was born; a half-sister Antonia the daughter of Aelia and not in the series and a older sister named Claudia Octavia (or just Octavia). Agrippinilla's son Nero was his adopted brother and brother in law as well.

In the series and in the novel, Claudius says that he believed Britannicus was Caligula's son. But in the novel he not only never tells his son this, but changes his mind at a later date (he does know that Octavia is not his though). There is some semblance in history for this, as later on Nero said that Britannicus was illegitimate, which may be connected to him being Caligula's son but it's a little weak. It does explain a little why Britannicus fell out of favour with Claudius even without bringing in the republic scheme, which we'll get to later. The thing is, the dates don't match up entirely (unless Messalina had an affair early in her marriage). Messalina and Claudius married 37 or 38, Octavia is born 37 or 38 and Britannicus follows in 41. For some reason I can recall Graves saying Britannicus was older than Octavia, but I don't have Claudius the god in front of me and the series is no help. Can someone confirm that?

All the same, Britannicus being Caligula's son is rather far-fetched, but not impossible.

Apparently, Britannicus being a pawn of Messalina's in her coup with Silius is not in the novels or the series, though both of them have her hide behind her children in the most deplorable way possible. Did Messalina love them? It's hard to tell but there could have been some sort of affection for them even if she did intend to use them as a way of getting to Claudius. What we have is Britannicus' (and Octavia's, but not shown) resentment against his father for killing her, which could mean nothing but that he's simply an obedient child believing what his mother tells him.

According to history, there was a clear rivalry between Britannicus and Nero and each had factions supporting them prior to Claudius' death. This isn't fully done in the series, while it's clear that Britannicus and Nero are rivals, Nero seems to have the upper hand thanks to his mother and poor Britannicus just has Narcissus and his father's scheme about the republic (which in the end he refuses to go through with).

Before we go into the scheme, I think we need to examine Britannicus' relationship. While it's clear that Britannicus was very well-favoured and loved by his father while he was married to Messalina (at least in the novels), this stopped after Messalina's death as Claudius believed (and continued to in the series) that Britannicus was not his child. So we have Britannicus growing up distant from his once close father and knowing that his father was somehow responsible for the death of his mother. There's no surprise there's resentment there. Resentment, not hatred, and Britannicus is not the first or last to resent his parents. We see this in the scene between them in the final episode, Britannicus says to Claudius he hates him and will never forgive him but doesn't meant it. What instead we see is a boy who loved his father very much in the past and does not understand why he does no longer, and that's why he forgives Claudius so readily.

I like to think that Claudius saw a lot of his brother in Britannicus, and there certainly is some resemblance in Britannicus' earnestness, loyalty and lack of personal ambition. But unlike Germanicus, Britannicus is a l

 

I call this the "You've Got to be Kidding" scene.

Yeah, Dad, place me in an unnecessarily impossible position, and then propose an equally impossible way out because of some dimwad prophecy? Nice.

The explanation that Claudius thinks Britannicus is Caligula's son explains some, but not all of it. After all, that makes both him and Nero great-nephews, and Britannicus is far less loony.