Saga I don't even know if this is the right place to ask this, but...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Oberst Hans Landa, Mar 7, 2014.

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  1. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    I'm sorry if this is not the right place for ask this, but I was wondering if one of you guys had a pdf or word file copy of the 108 page rebuttal to the infamous RLM's review of The Phantom Menace. I would really like to read it, since I've heard it is excellent.

    If someone does have it, would you please pm me and email it to me?

    Thank you.

    I'd really appreciate it.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  2. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There was a link to the Rebuttal in the RLM thread on the PT forum.

    This, I think, was the post with it:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...requel-reviews.32077440/page-30#post-50200336
    Oberst Hans Landa likes this.
  3. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2

    Thank you @Iron_lord. I'd already seen that thread. The problem is that that link only allows you to read a very short sample of the rebuttal and then you have to register, pay, download it… and yadda yadda yadda. :p As much as I wanna read it, I'm not willing to pay $8 to be able to download it.
  4. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I see. I've never even seen the RLM movie - so wouldn't know where to find the Complete Rebuttal, other than what I've already guessed at.
  5. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    You haven't? How come? You really should, even if you're a fan of the prequels. Granted, some of the jokes are tasteless, but the analysis is spot on for the most part, albeit somewhat unfair at times.
  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The RLM thread made for me a pretty convincing case for not seeking out the reviews.
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  7. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
  8. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    I thought the RLM reviews were pretty spot on with Phantom Menace (and had other good points on the other two movies).
  9. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    TPM is underrated, a lot of the stuff in that review seemed like nitpicking that you could do with any film if you hated it enough :p
    I dunno, some of the comments on AOTC were valid, like when Padme's decoy is blown up and says she has failed Padme, he says "didn't she do exactly what she was supposed to?" That was funny because I had thought the same thing.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  10. Oberst Hans Landa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2014
    star 2
    Thanks everyone. I've just been sent the rebuttal by a very nice forum member. I am sure this is going to be a very interesting read. ;)
    Cryogenic likes this.
  11. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Some of it is worse than nitpicking and actually goes into all-out kvetching and even character assassination / defamation. Still, if you approach the videos as satire, they're pretty damn funny. The ticks-and-crosses bit involving Anakin's pursuit of Padme in AOTC is comedy gold. And I also find myself agreeing with some of what Plinkett says. But from a different vantage point. Like when he says that AOTC is "a colourful mishmash of stuff" that happens to bridge the gap between I and II. This is not exactly incorrect, but it's hardly the final word on the film, either. Still, the assembly of the videos is brilliant, and each, in some ways, seems to top the last. I love that the prequels have provoked such a bewildering range of responses-- some of them, like the Plinkett material, quite prolonged and quite intense.
  12. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Yeah, it's been a while since I saw the reviews, but I agree the guy can be funny. "Prolonged and quite intense" sums it up really, I wouldn't want to watch it repeatedly, he does go too far in a lot of cases. The polar nature of the Star Wars fanbase can be disheartening at times, but it makes things realer I suppose. I just think that the energy some may put into their critique of the films could be better spent trying to see themes that aren't that obvious to a casual viewer. Oh well.
  13. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Maybe it keeps the fanbase more honest? Or certain segments of...?

    If we can incorporate negativity in the right way, we are theoretically balanced in our understanding and enjoyment of these films.

    Oh, yes. I agree with you.

    Very few people want to explore anything.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    If I recall correctly, the author of the rebuttal was JimRaynor55 who is a user here (though he posts infrequently). I'm not sure, though, so don't hold me to that.

    I've watched the RLM reviews and, in fairness, they do make some good points. Sometimes there'll be points brought up that I hadn't thought of and that I think are legitimate. I remember watching his Star Trek 2009 review and when he mentioned that the movie had a case of the "not-gays," it struck me that he might be right about that (given the Star Trek fandom's history and the fact that the romance was pretty poorly handled in my opinion). Or when he points out the guys in wife beaters during the speech in Avatar. For the PT, I do think he occasionally makes good points as well -- such as bringing Anakin with them to Naboo in TPM.

    The largest problem I have with him, though, is that he often speaks as though he can generalize his opinion to the whole audience and…he can't. If he just made the videos and described things he had issues with, that would be one thing, but he goes out of his way to insult people who don't agree with him and generalize his opinion to the audience

    That, and I can't stand how he assassinates George Lucas' character. Even if everything he says about Lucas is true, that doesn't make his subjective opinion on the PT anymore legitimate than anyone else's. That and, honestly, I truly don't understand the hatred for Lucas. What's the worst thing that man has done? He made a few movies you don't like? He made some minor changes to some of his old movies? Is that really it? As far as I can tell, Lucas has never done anything anywhere near the level of controversy of Harrison Ford or Natalie Portman, but they're beloved. It boggles my mind, quite honestly.
  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    That's the very chap!

    http://boards.theforce.net/members/jimraynor55.1173121/

    The "Star Trek" observation is so stellar -- pun intended -- that it reveals a socially-conscious side of Plinkett / Stoklasa barely glimpsed in all his prequel reviews combined, in my opinion. In fact, I find a lot more directness and a great deal less dishonesty from him in his ST09 review, as well as when Stoklasa appears as himself in his "Half In The Bag" reviews. In fact, I was just watching his "Half In The Bag" review of "The Dark Knight Rises" today, and while he and his companion both liked it, they don't totally gush over it start to finish. Additionally, they have a bit of a chuckle over the notion that Christopher Nolan is fervently hated and considered a big hack by some people online. The "Half In The Bag" material is executed in a different manner and is much more refreshingly balanced than Stoklasa's unremittingly negative prequel videos.

    The Anakin-on-Naboo thing earns a big "whatever!" from me. While it might be a bit of a plot contrivance, it also fits the prequel trilogy's theme of mentorship gone astray, and young people being thrust into situations vastly beyond their control or reckoning. The absurdity of Anakin being brought into a warzone is also echoed with Jar Jar's sudden promotion to "General". Each is clearly an innocent being forcibly made into an adult: one for the human charge, one for the Gungan ploy.

    While what you describe is problematic, the RLM material is so obviously both sardonic and satirical in places that I can't get too mad about it, personally. In his ST09 review, Plinkett says at one point, to a picture of Gene Roddenberry, "So much for your peaceful vision of the future... idiot!" He clearly uses insults with a degree of irony. Which is not let him off the hook -- but, again, given the form and content of the videos, that lone aspect has never bothered me a whole deal, really.

    I don't like Lucas being denigrated quite as much as Plinkett denigrates him. He even invents criticisms at some points, like when he claims, after an allegedly disastrous rough cut screening of TPM -- and the same material Plinkett / Stoklasa uses is all located in "The Beginning" DVD documentary -- that Lucas then "mints" the finished result as "bold", as if Lucas is backwards-rationalizing it, despite the fact that it was very clear that Lucas set out to create a bolder film with TPM, and the proof of this can be found at the start of the same documentary (chiefly, in the storyboard gathering, when Lucas talks several times about how the envelope is being pushed, and even jokes that the audience will be exhausted and "ready to go home" half-way through the movie at the end of the podrace). Little things like that are real sticking points because they indicate that footage from the same source is used dishonestly in a cheap attempt to fling mud and further sully the artistic drive of Lucas and his standing in popular / geek culture. In other words, to spread half-truths and lies, facts and alternative perspectives be damned. So, yeah... with you there.

    But the intrigue in Lucas, whether it's to champion the man or bring him down, all rests in the fact that he created something with unique cultural currency, and through the creation of that thing -- i.e., Star Wars -- and ancillary film companies, he attained a lucrative and unique position of power and influence. Big targets raise big opportunities. And whether those opportunities are taken depends on the strength of the emotions involved. But emotions are likely to be involved when you're talking about stuff that cuts into popular culture; and cuts deep. It is even Camille Paglia's contention, rightly or wrongly, that the Star Wars saga -- or ROTS, specifically -- is the most stunning and satisfying work of art of the last thirty years, running rings around anything from the world of "high art" in all that time. Clearly, Star Wars has earned its share of notice, and people like Harrison Ford and Natalie Portman, as popular as they are, and as controversial as some of their choices might have been, don't really come to the same level of cultural penetration.

    Furthermore, while you're an excellent poster, I don't think apophasis, or some pseudo form, is a wise device here. What have either Ford or Portman done that's all that notorious in their professional or private lives? As compared with some or many of Lucas' artistic choices and positions? There's a reason that people would rather rubbish Elvis Presley than contemporaries of his like Ricky Nelson or Tom Jones. Sometimes, some individuals rise way above others, even in the same creative fields. Genius asserts itself. Lucas is attacked because some people think he's earned it. And that he's presumably wealthy enough and sophisticated enough (at least, subconsciously, they must believe this) to take his share of knocks. Still, you have a point. Frustration and ranting are often misplaced in society. Certain individuals inevitably become fall guys and take the blame for issues much bigger than themselves. The extensive hatred towards Justin Bieber is a modern example of this phenomenon. I can't help seeing the RLM material as quite crass and exploitative in this regard; it trades on hate and plays to a receptive audience. Though, again, it's also funny and satirical enough, in my estimation, to not come across as too palpably rancorous or nasty.

    For me, the RLM prequel reviews are what they are. Entertaining, stylish, and smart, but not particularly deep or edifying. On the other hand, on a basic artistic level, they are such a smorgasbord of pulpy vulgarity and rambling discontentment as to reach a peculiar sort of incandescent attraction; even beauty. But despite that, I ultimately need to look elsewhere for true nourishment -- and I know that other "elsewheres", sans Plinkett, are out there.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Mar 7, 2014
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They're really not, that was Raynor's point. They're largely nonsense.
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  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    See, I understand what you mean with the Gene Roddenberry example, but I do think that sometimes it's difficult for me to see his material as sardonic or satirical because it's clear that while what's being said is intended to be humorous, it's also intended to be seen as analysis as well. Any time ESB is brought up as a comparison point, for example. That and the fact that I dislike when people expect to be taken seriously and then, when you point out legitimate flaws in their reasoning, they hide behind the cover of humor. Obviously, a lot of the RLM review is meant to be funny, but it's when the serious analysis and the insulting comparisons mix that I just feel that he's taking the "coward's way out" for lack of a better descriptor.

    I despise quote-mining. Part of it has to do with the absolutely insane evolution vs. creationism debate we've had in the US and I absolutely can't abide it. It's disgusting and I know more than one scientist has had to be careful about how exactly they word documents or speeches they write. Maybe I just have a particular sensitivity to that issue, but I can't help but abhor it.

    You're right that it's unfair to target Ford or Portman. I've just had them on my mind a whole lot lately because I read transcripts of Samantha Geimer's testimony a few weeks ago and they were brought up in a cracked.com photoplasty on Wednesday. I threw up in my mouth a little reading that transcript and the fact that they can basically ignore what was done to her just sets my teeth on edge in the worst way. Mind you, they're not the only ones but I just find it hard to comprehend why what Lucas has done -- made a couple of changes to his movies and maybe made a few disappointing films (in some people's opinions) -- is so worthy of backlash. It just grinds my gears that so many people in the Star Wars fandom have decided that Lucas is the Star Wars boogeyman. Why does Lucas have to be cruel or selfish or a hack or greedy or any of these things just because he made a movie someone didn't happen to like?

    From my perspective, they are certainly entertaining. I'm also highly entertained by the fact that Damon Lindelof endorsed them so much when he was responsible for the absolutely disastrous (in my opinion) re-introduction of Khan into the last Star Trek film. What a terrible move that was. Then there's also Simon Pegg's endorsement which I find utterly hilarious given the extreme lack of class he displayed when people dared to criticize the latest Trek film.

    But the reviews are what they are. If one likes them, go ahead and enjoy them.
  18. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    It's hilarious how seriously people take RLM's jokes- thy're jokes! They aren't meant to be taken seriously.
    Last edited by Garrett Atkins, Mar 7, 2014
  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Unofficial rule in Saga is that discussion of the RLM reviews isn't permitted - it simply brings out the worst in everyone, pro or con. It's also PT-specific, anyway, and there's a thread in PT.

    Locking.
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