"I don't want to loose you to the Emperor like I did Vader"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by jim_jim_binks, Dec 9, 2005.

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  1. jim_jim_binks Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2003
    star 1
    In Empire Strikes Back, Luke receives training from Yoda. This consists mostly of extreme piggy-back rides, handstands, and rock levitating. Useful combat skills, no doubt. In the end though, Luke receives a vision of the future courtesy of the Force. In this vision, he sees Han and Leia in pain in a city in the clouds. Based on this info, and armed with his new-found hand-standing skills, he decides to fly off to his friends rescue. Yoda pleads with him to stay and finish his training. Even at the expense of Han and Leia's lives. Then Obi-Wan steps in with an interesting observation. He says,"I don't want to loose you to the Emperor like I did Vader."

    That comment has always stuck out to me. What did Luke leaving to save his friends have to do with Anakin joining the Dark Side?

    Along comes Revenge of the Sith and Lucas cleverly weaves these two threads together. Anakin receives a vision of Padme dieing in child birth. This vision is the result of his turn to the Dark Side in the since that she dies as a result of the sequence of events that resulted from his turn. Had he ignored these visions, they would not have come to pass. At the Opera house, Palps mentions the power to prevent death, thus seducing Anakin. Later when Ani learns Palp's true identity, Palps says "Learn the power of the Dark Side. Only then can you save your wife from certain death."

    This statement planted the seed in Anakin that lead him down the Dark Path. He thought he could save his wife by turning to the Dark Side. Ironically though, Padme was in no real danger. She was only in danger once Anakin joined the Dark Side. So in essence, Palpatine making the above statement was the cause of Anakins visions. Palpatine was indirectly responsible for the visions.

    Flash forward to ESB. What was the cause of Luke's vision? Han was being tortured. He later said that he wasn't asked any questions. The sole purpose of the torture was to lure Luke to Bespin. Vader knew it would work on Luke because it had worked on him. He has had 23 years at that point to ponder his previous life, and has probably worked out the implications of the visions and Palpatine's part in them. Since the two have evidently not spent much time exploring the power to prevent death, Vader must realise that that whole line was just a con to lure him in.

    So Ben lost Vader to the Emperor due to his attempts to prevent a vision of his wife's death from being fulfilled, and didn't want to loose Luke due to his attempts to prevent a vision of his friends in pain from being fulfilled. Yoda's advice to father and son is the same. Let go. Death is a natural part of life.

    I think this was a very clever tie-in on Lucas's part. He has mentioned that theme's repeat and that Anakin and Luke go through very similar experiences, with different outcomes. This is a special case in that Ben's comment in ESB foreshadowed the same thing happening in ROTS.

    Very clever Mr Lucas. Bravo!
  2. YYZ-2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Cool Thread! :cool:

    I think at the time the film was being made the thing Ben is refering to is Vader being seduced by the dark side; not really the details because more than likely they hadn't been meshed out yet. This 'seduction' is the general mechanism that claims Vader and we see Luke become tempted by Vader's revelation and offer for galactic power and a resolution to the Galactic Civil War; an attempt to 'seduce' Luke.

    I give Lucas a lot of credit for weaving Vader's fall into many of the subtle story elements of the OT, but I doubt Ben's words had much more meaning than what's on the surface in TESB; that Vader was seduced by the darkside of the force and that he didn't want Luke to be seduced as well. They see Luke taking the bait but they think it's being engineered by the Emperor, not by Vader. In ROTJ we hear Yoda say that Vader's revelation to Luke was unexpected.

    Still though it is a nice tie in to the PT. It shows how Luke's need to cling and save his friends is sort of the same fatal flaw Anakin has in trying to save Padme. It also justifies why the old master's thought it was wrong to try and save them whereas most of us at the time saw nothing wrong in Luke's choice other than it was opposite waht was requested of him. It also adds logic to Vader's forshadowing that by torturing Luke's freinds, Luke would be compelled to seek them out. He knows this tactic will work because Luke is his son and the son; sins of the father; that sort of thing. It also shows that Vader has grown and recognizes his own characteristics and perhaps his own lack of vision and fatal flaw in why he fell to begin with, but like in ROTJ he sees it as too late for himself to do right. So he exploits that understanding to get what he wants out of his son.

    I read or heard somewhere that Lucas didn't want to just make three new movies to add to the OT but that he wanted to change or redefine what the OT was by making the PT. The example you have brought up are one of many of these redefinitions.
  3. Circle_Is_Complete Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 3
    I had said something about this awhile back. It personally makes this one of my favorite scenes in all the Saga now. Also Yoda discusses with Obi-Wan a little earlier that he doesn't want to train Luke because his mind is never focused on the present but always away somewhere else and that a Jedi doesn't CRAVE adventure. Very similar to TPM Anakin.
  4. Virgilius Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 2
    Obi-Wan is a lovable character. But it's important to realize that he and Yoda are of the old Jedi Order. They don't believe in attachments. That's why they advised Luke not to go. Plus, they knew it was reckless to take on Vader half-trained.

    In the wider context of things, if Yoda had not saved Anakin and Obi-Wan during his duel with Tyranus, things would have been different. If he had killed Tyranus rather than saved his friends, who knows what could have happened.

    Obi-Wan doesn't want to lose Luke like he did Anakin. He not only wants to save this "new hope," but he doesn't want him to be a victim of the Dark Lord of the Sith.
  5. Commander_Bly05 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2005
    star 1
    Palpatine and Vader wanted Luke Skywalker on TESB for his skills. Vader was after Luke and he decided to capture his friends for Luke to come over and join him. That's why they were meant to suffer like Yoda, or Obi Wan, predicted.

    On the other hand, Luke wasn't able to finish his training when he decided to go and help his friends. He wasn't ready to take the burden at that point. Luke was supposed to face up Vader after completing his training with Yoda, but he wasn't going to let his friends to suffer and die since nobody knew exactly what was going to happen to them in the future.

    So, Obi Wan really didn't want Luke to loose him to the Emperor the way he did Vader/Anakin.
  6. Carnage04 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    I think Obi-Wan had a fear that if Luke ran into Vader......Vader might play the "Who's your daddy" card, really messing with Luke's head. He probably felt that Luke was not ready to learn this quite yet and he certainly didn't want it told to Luke by Vader himself.. Luke was still raw and vulnerable at this point and getting a chance to hang out with daddy might have seemed apealing, considering Luke's desire for adventure. Vader could have promised him virtually ANYTHING at that time.

    Carnage
  7. MickyJedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 1
    Very good [face_idea]!

    I think that Vader in TESB tried to turn Luke to the Dark Side by sending him vibrations of pain in the Force. He did it so, cos this had been the way he had walked down to the Dark Side, and wanted Luke to do the same.

    But the difference between Ani and Luke is that Ani makes plans to save Padme, that consist in joining the Dark Side, while Luke is much more impulsive, and tries to save his friends without a plan.
    Ani makes plans because he feels a strong attachment to Padme; Luke doesn't makes plans cos he is much more generous and spontaneous, I think.

    Maybe Luke's attempt to save his friends is much more similar to Yoda's rescue in AOTC than to Anakin's will of saving Padme.
  8. Jedi_872 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2005
    star 1
    I always thought of Luke's attempt to save Han and Leia as similar to Anakin trying to save his mother. Both leave in the middle of something , abandoning it to save those they love.

    I also thought that Luke had it esier because Han and Leia didn't die, but I've been thinking, and maybe he didn't, because the image of his father that he'd had all those years was shattered.Maybe the only difference was that Anakin's call to the dark side at that point was much subtler than Luke's and he only had to turn a little, not the whole way as was demanded of Luke.
  9. darthYENIK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 2
    I never really thought of that. I figured Vader just liked to hear people scream. Notice how he leans in just before han gets it.
  10. Darth_Mongoulus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2005
    star 1
    Nah, Vader's just going deaf by that point.

    Anyhoo, yeah, Luke could have fallen the same way Anakin did.
    Nothing else to add at the moment.
  11. Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I guess the weird thing is that once Luke actually got to Bespin and fought Darth Vader, he really wasn't in any position to save his friends. He gets sucked into a little chamber where he fights Vader, while everyone else just manages to worm their way out of the Empire's grip. So I guess that sorta took away from the desperation factor.
  12. princessleia911 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2005
    star 4
    Great thread! Obi-Wan and Yoda may belong to the Old Jedi thinking but Luke's actions seem to justify their no-attachment theory. It is interesting how Lucas sets a similar trap for Anakin and Luke. Luke has already proven that he can let go like he did in ANH after the death of his family on Tatooine. Anakin proves he can't. I think that is why Vader goes after him in the way he does, kind of an apple doesn't fall too far from the tree thought but he forgot that he is Padme's son as well and has been taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda. Luke knows nothing of the political machinations Anakin was subjected to and how the Republic really was dead long before Palps took over. Luke further demonstrates his ability to let go when he lets go on the balcony at Bespin. He didn't know where he was going or that he would be alive but he jumped anyway and had this peaceful look on his face. Vader was obviously shaken, he could have pursued him more closely but he let him go.
  13. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    also note

    obi1: "that boy is our last hope"

    (he thinks leia is captured and will probably be killed, he thinks luke is going to try and save her and turn to the dark side)

    yoda: "no, there is another"

    did yoda forsee it actually ends up being LEIA WHO SAVES LUKE and not the other way around?
  14. Rexus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2005
    also note

    obi1: "that boy is our last hope"

    (he thinks leia is captured and will probably be killed, he thinks luke is going to try and save her and turn to the dark side)

    yoda: "no, there is another"

    did yoda forsee it actually ends up being LEIA WHO SAVES LUKE and not the other way around?


    I don't think so...
    He maybe said that in despair or just his senses were disturbed (yeah I know this is Yoda but he is sick to that point). He couldn't have seen so much into the future to say that Luke will turn to the Dark Side and etc... IMO
  15. MasterACyard Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2005
    star 1

    further note that ObiBen had a chance to interviene anakin's dream torment in aotc, but he dismissed it saying, "Dreams pass in time"

    After Geonosis, Obi was too busy to say, "what in blazes were you doing on tatooine anyway??"

    "D'oh!!"
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The rule of attachments still stands for Luke and his training. It's what saves Luke is because he lets of his attachments and accepts that things change. People come and go. Attachments are bad, but relationships are encouraged. But yes, Lucas knew what he was doing when he made the connection between Anakin and Luke. As he said, what made Vader is the same thing that Luke faces during his time.

    Neither Obi-wan or Anakin had a clue that Anakin's dreams were visions of the moment. A month had passed, in which time it was already too late to save her. She suffered serious injuries and only survived because she hung on to hope that Anakin would come.
  17. Ivo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2002
    star 1
    The main difference between Luke and Anakin that hasn't been discussed is that Anakin see that the republic and Jedi order arei corrupt and see that Palpatine as it saviour. WhileLuke sees the empire and Palpatine and Darth Vader in the same way and that may ground him in his reality. Oh and that he hasn't got Darth Sideous whispering in his FREAKIN' ear for 10 years saying that the republic and the Jedi are corrupt and only doing things to keep themselves in power and that only Palpatine can save the Republic.
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