Lit I feel like Crimson Empire III is pretty underrated.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by IG_2000, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I got the Saga HC too. Really nice book. I'd actually get more collections like this if they did them, as it just feels like it'll last longer.

    Finally finished the story a couple of days ago (I've had the issues since they came out, but didn't have time over the summer to finish reading, then forgot until the collection came out). On the whole, didn't love it, though didn't mind it either. A definite improvement on CE2, though nowhere near as memorable as CE1.

    I feel like it could have used another issue or two, as Issue 6 especially felt very, very squeezed in, with Devian's duel too short, too little explanation of the space battle, the appearance of Feena's clone seeming underdeveloped, and too abrupt an ending for what is meant as the final conclusion to the Crimson Empire story. I realise Kanos is already established doing various errands later on in the timeline, which may have been why he couldn't have a happy ending with Mirith, but I'd at least have preferred a couple more pages for some proper closure. Still, all that aside, I still enjoyed it, which is much more than I can say for a lot of middling novels.

    Luke surprisingly didn't bother me that much when I re-read those scenes. On first reading, I was thinking "Wha...?", but when I re-read, I was able to imagine him talking in a much less confrontational manner than his Marvel He-Luke facial expression was suggesting.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Nov 16, 2012
  2. Darth_Culator Force Ghost

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  3. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    I like the way people act like that Solo kids shot isn't exactly like every other panel Gulacy has ever done for CE titles.
  4. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    That's why Crimson Empire 1 was the best: the characters' faces were hidden by red and black helmets.
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  5. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    There were still plenty of eyes to cross, and nothing saved us from badly-rendered bodies, proportion and perspective errors, and all the other stuff that would embarrass an amateur.
  6. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Considering it was canceled the first time because of the then upcoming prequel trilogy, I guess people were expecting something more meaty than "it's not your old Bantam warlord: he has Acclamators!!!!!!!!".
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  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    While I've always thought its be cool to see a warlord make use of all those scrapped warships (sorta like Thrawn did with the Dreadnaughts, I suppose), I actually really didn't like the Acclamators in CE3... It just seemed wrong that Devian ever thought they'd be able to stand up against all those modern Imp Star IIs that the Remnant now had.

    This is the main area where I think the fleet battle needed some more discussion, as there are reasons in the story for it -- Pellaeon was attacking Coruscant, the place would be undefended, so Devian didn't need top of the range warships, etc -- but in the text this didn't seem to get enough explanation, which made things feel a bit flat and as if the Acclamators were just there for the purpose of "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool to use those great looking ships from AOTC!?"

    Really just wanted a line by one of Devians detractors earlier in the story so he had a chance to explain how using old rust buckets was going to work.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Nov 17, 2012
  8. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

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    I didn't like the use of the Acclamators and other Clone Wars stuff because it ruined the otherwise-great pretend immersion of my return to the late 1990s that the rest of CE3 offered me.

    I do think Gulacy's art improved slightly for CE3. The key factor there being the word 'slightly' and the fact that it's relative to his earlier work.
  9. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    I like that Gulacy's art ruined the intended reveal back in CE1 of Carnor Jax and Kir Kanos being clones. Nicely done.
  10. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    This place needs a dislike button
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Gonna bump this thread as opposed to making a new one, because I finally got around to reading CE3 -- had avoided it for a while due to people saying that I shouldn't bother or somesuch. Anyway, my thoughts basically echo Nick's here:

    Basically -- the art was pretty rough, and the storyline... didn't really go anywhere. That said, I loved all the continuity especially towards the beginning of the thing -- references to Nam Chorios, and more NJO hinting with Rhomamool and Anor. Seems a bit early for the latter, esp. since the Remnant and NR are still at war... but eh. Overall, the series felt like it had been in a time warp from the late 90s, where the warlord of the week, Solo baby kidnapping, and Vong hinting would have basically fit right in. And while that seems to have disappointed a lot of people, I guess that's exactly what I liked about it?

    Basically -- and not to thrill Nick too unduly -- I love seeing the New Republic in a visual format. And when I say NR, I mean NR -- talking late into Bantam's run, chronologically. We've seen so much of the OT-era Rebel Alliance, but we've seen relatively little of the NR, and seeing the NR visually is great because it's 100% a creation of the old-school EU. Every time I saw Leia on screen as Chief of State, saw Han in his admiral's uniform, or even the little random NR flunkies in their blue jackets and hats I was ecstatic. 'cause the thing is -- as much as I like Imperials, they look exactly the same as they do in the movies, so...

    I mean, seriously, I am going to risk massive harm to my reputation by gushing at how much I loved this stuff. I loved seeing the Palace interior, for one thing -- it had a pretty swell mix of Roman fluted columns, Byzantine vaulted halls with gold-topped green Corinthian columns and reddish crossvaults, and an interesting Ottoman-Persian theme going for the Chief of State's Residence. The colors in general were very middle-eastern, which seems appropriate for the Palace.

    Also liked seeing NR-era senators and the like. Gungans in the NR Senate = awesome. Other folks wearing elaborate costumes that aren't really too PT-inspired, because they have that old school EU feel to them, they're NR rather than OR in look. Leia's Chief of State robes were spectacular. Also liked the little intimate council hall that the Palace had, as well as that hologram room and Leia's office (both of which seemed ROTS inspired -- the former reminded me of the Jedi briefing room and the latter seemed close in style to Palpatine's 500 Republica office, though it was clearly different). I have to wonder if that office was part of the old Presidential portion of the Palace, or if she repurposed it from the Emperor's portions.

    The ships were cool too -- both the Clone Wars era stuff, but also the EU things. There was a Dauntless right at the beginning, and I think I saw an escort shuttle from the X-wing/TIE games too.

    Oh, and that scene on Adumar -- I'm amused that fascist is a canonical word now.

    I didn't mind Kanos's story. Perhaps it's because I felt some sympathy with him? These neo-Imperials, these so-called "hardliners" -- where were they when the so-called Imperial Interim Ruling Council murdered the Emperor? They seem like delusional crazy people, and they're running a terrorist campaign to boot. Yeah, they're right to revile Pelly for being a coward and a failure -- but guess what guys? The war is over. And murdering a bunch of people, or launching terrorist strikes against children isn't the way to go. They had no honor, and they disgraced the Emperor's memory. I knew exactly what Kanos was going through there. Perhaps others wanted more, but it worked for me.

    That said, I don't like Merith Sinn. I've seen no point to her, I don't buy the romance, and she's always felt like fanservice to me. I mean, lady's working in the Imperial Palace for the President of the New Republic and she's still not got the decency to button up her shirt? Unprofessional! And I would say that I wouldn't expect more from a Rebel, but they're the galactic government now -- and clearly the NR *does* have its standards. Sinn is a disgrace.

    Oh, and Luke's paranoia was... weird. Seemed kinda out of character to me, I don't know. He felt a little dark.

    Han was cool to see, not sure why he'd be on a military campaign again. But it's not a problem -- he's pretty much resigned to being respectable by that point. And he did clearly yearn to go home.

    Oh, and I suppose I should talk about Pelly. I nearly lost my lunch when I saw him. I dislike him, and I've always disliked D'Asta. Apparently now Pelly has warrants out for Kanos for the death of Carivus and the IIRC? Really -- the Remnant is backing traitors and regicides? Well, if I didn't already have enough reason to consider the Remnant a fraud... and also the leader of the neo-Imperial faction seems to feel that Pelly is a wily old fox for some reason. Doesn't make sense. Still, I suppose it was nice to see Old Fuss and Failure again too... Bantam era nostalgia and all. And I suppose this is where Warfare got the idea to make Orinda the temporary Imperial headquarters?

    Sad we never got to see Reaper on Lusankya action (that sounded wrong), but oh well.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Jul 6, 2013
  12. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV - Vacationing and stuff

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    I actually kinda liked the implication that Nom Anor had been on Rhomamool for a good amount of years. Lends credibility to the fact that he has the power and influence he does by 25 ABY. It also leaves room for him to have been discreetly influencing other events throughout the galaxy, kinda using Rhomamool as his primary base of operations.
  13. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Just the inclusion of the Dauntless-class cruiser and that old Mon Cal admiral were enough to make me happy. Ditto seeing a NRDF naval uniform. :D

    --Adm. Nick
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  14. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    I still feel like it's kind of a missed opportunity, but it's not that bad.
    Last edited by JoinTheSchwarz, Jul 6, 2013
  15. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    I'm going to be honest here: I absolutely loved the first issue of CEIII. I thought it was going somewhere.

    The other 4 were a trainwreck. And it was the villain. It was all the villain.

    Look at the other CE's. Why were they respected (at least by those who enjoyed them)? Because they messed around with the good-guy/bad-guy dichotomy. Kir Kanos was, by our film-going standards, one of the "bad guys." But he had his own sense of honor where the likes of Carnor Jax, Carivus, and even Massimo did not. And those other baddies grew along with Kanos as characters during the course of the comics.

    Now here comes wuz-his-face-CEIII-villain. Who the hell is he? Where did he come from? Vima da Boda has to TELL us that he's the villain. Luke has to TELL us that he's one of Palpatine's worst henchmen. But do we ever get to see any of this backstory in action? For that matter, why haven't we heard about him before?

    Ok, fine. CEIII, if you want to introduce a NEW baddie this late in the game, we as the audience can be fair and keep an open mind. But wait. What does Devianbadart do? He invites Kanos to his place and gives him an ultimatum: join me or die. But wait -- why should Kanos be intimidated? He's been pitted against his own side before. He's been through worse, by actual politically-devious villains that don't need to spell out "devious" in their surname so the point hammers home?

    Seriously, that single image of Nom Anor walking down the stairs could make me shudder, but the main villain couldn't manage the same in 4 issues. That's because Anor had EARNED my respect as a villain. I knew what he was capable of. He doesn't have to do anything now but walk down some steps and I'll be in awe.

    But Devian? He was introduced in the second, not first, of a 5 issue arc. He then very stereotypically and stupidly invited Kanos to dinner, threatened him, got his hands on a weapon of mass destruction, threatened galactic domination, and died. In 4 issues. He never saw any character development. He never got a real backstory. He was a combo of all the most cliched of Bond villains.

    And worst of all, Kanos walked out of the story in essentially the same position he was when he walked in. Poor Kanos was unable to develop as a hero and complete the three-part CE arc because dumbass Devianbadart was such a lousy 2D character.


    (Sorry -- had to get that out of my system. I was a big CE fan until this one.)
  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    The biggest problem is it spent so long on build up it lacked the space for the finale, which could have been awesome but instead on big off-screen battles! :(
  17. JediAlly Force Ghost

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    It was good, but I feel that it wasn't of the same quality as the first two parts. I agree that the "going after Luke" plotline fizzled out, but then again, from what I read, I felt that both Kir Kanos and Mirith Sinn were feeling burned out at this point. Maybe that had an impact in how this comic was received.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    A big thing for me is that I was told that it was terrible, so my expectations were so low that I was pleasantly surprised by the parts that WERE good. I feel that most people reading it probably went in with rather high expectations and ended up disappointed for that reason.

    I mean, that's certainly true. It's biggest weakness is that it reads like it should have been released when it was originally promised: I feel like had it come out then, it would have worked great -- the villain was weaksauce, but that may have been the intent. By the late 90s, the warlord of the week thing had been so overplayed that an ineffectual villain just goes to show that it's time to move on: there are bigger and badder villains there that nobody's paying attention to yet (namely, Nom Anor!) because everyone is so busy fighting ghosts. The NR vs. Remnant war is irrelevant now.

    And that, I think, is where Kanos gets his growth -- by realizing that his motivation is gone. He doesn't have some big revelatory moment, he doesn't have some catalyst that turns him from honorable-villain-protag to honorable-good-protag ... he just abandons his quest. It's an Empire lost in every sense -- there's nothing to fight for anymore, and the pitifulness of Devian and his group showed him that. It's pointless. And I feel it would have resonated much more in the NJO period than it does now, because we all know that already.

    I still agree that the storyline didn't go anywhere, and the whole exploding metal plot just seemed unnecessary and never realized. I also agree that the villain was ineffectual. But I kinda think that's the point -- now I don't know if I'm coming to this conclusion by reading against the text or not, but... well, think about it this way: how unique of a villain was Carnor Jax really? He was a cackling wannabe darksider complete with your usual villain catchphrases. What made him interesting was his relationship to Kanos, but there was nothing at all interesting about him as a person (really, Carivus in his bumbling incompetence was more interesting than Jax alone) -- but Jax came around at the right time, with an interesting protag to contrast with. Devian and his story are so irrelevant because they're characters out of time, both IU and OOU -- but maybe that's the point?

    But I don't know, I'm probably saying this because -- like I said -- I was far more interested in seeing the NR stuff in comic format than I was invested in the actual storyline, because there was really nothing to hook on to. It's the same reason I enjoyed Invasion, seeing the characters and setting of that time period on screen.
  19. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Had Devian been revealed as Nom Anor wearing an ooglith masker, I would find the series so much better. [face_batting]
  20. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Would have been a really bad Cloaker, I mean the guy doesn't even look human

    [IMG]

    :p
  21. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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  22. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    True -- although it would kinda mimic CE2 a bit there. It'd have been great if Kanos uncovered clues about the Vong and got killed in the process. Perhaps not by Anor but some other Praetorite Vong character. He'd try to warm the NR but nobody would believe him.

    Maybe then the bomb plot line would've made sense. As it stood, he was exonerated like it was nothing.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
  23. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Thing just is Kanos has already been said to be alive by the time of Young Jedi Knights
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jul 6, 2013
  24. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    By what kind of source? Is it direct or indirect evidence? If just the latter, then it's just a matter of rumors of a legendary character still being alive -- which happens often, in real life and in SW.
  25. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    WotC adventure, I believe.