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FF:NZ I Have a Request...

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Yun-Yuuzhan, Apr 11, 2004.

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  1. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    Hi, I'm an American and my school rugby team wants to start doing the Haka before our practices and games. The problem is we have no idea what the movements are. If anyone could help me out and PM some information or instructions on how to actually perform Ka Mate that would be excellent. Thank you very much.
  2. Darth_Graal Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 4
    In a word "NO" Sorry fella, all the best with your rugby efforts but please develop your own cultural Identity.

    Perhaps you could appropriate a dance or similar ritual from one of the many native american tribes. Maybe even one that used to reside (or if they are Realllly lucky still do!)in your native state.

    If any one feels I'm being unduly harsh, I don't care.
  3. YouAgain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2001
    star 5
    I hate to say it but I agree with Graal! You should come up with something from your own culture!
  4. Kitt327 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 4
    First up, welcome to NZ fanforce, Yun-Yuuzhan.

    In regards to your request, I don't think the haka is something that you can learn to do properly without an actual trainer ... the NZ teams are all trained to perform it by professional coaches.

    Most kiwi kids learn the basics of it at some stage during the school years ... I remember we had haka coaches visit our primary school class when we were about 6-7. Us girls were only taught a wussier girly version though, the All Blacks version had to wait until lunchtime, behind the classrooms where the teachers couldn't see us :) Ah, the memories ..
  5. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    It's nice that you want to learn the traditions from another culture, but I'd stay away from Maori culture if I were you. They're really picky about people using their names/dance moves/whatever, and it'll most likely just get you into trouble.
  6. SimplyThrilledHoney Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    Graal said:
    In a word "NO" Sorry fella, all the best with your rugby efforts but please develop your own cultural Identity.

    Perhaps you could appropriate a dance or similar ritual from one of the many native american tribes. Maybe even one that used to reside (or if they are Realllly lucky still do!)in your native state.

    If any one feels I'm being unduly harsh, I don't care.


    and then YouAgain said ...
    I hate to say it but I agree with Graal! You should come up with something from your own culture!

    Why is the Haka such a sacred cow? Surely there are All Blacks who aren't Maori, and some who probably weren't even born in New Zealand. Are they allowed to do the Haka?

    All cultures absorb and assimilate other cultural elements. Look at the Ratana church. It's an assimilation of Christianity and Maori spirituality. Surely no NZer of European descent is going to begrudge Maori for appropriating their spiritual values and beliefs.

    Is some Pakeha kid in the suburbs who listens to hip-hop and wears baggy pants going to get berated for appropriating Afro-American cullture? What about all the New Zealanders who hang those little "dream catchers" from the rear-vision mirrors on their rear-vision mirrors? Are we going to outlaw those on the basis that they're insulting to Native Americans?

    As the sole voice of reason in the recent race debate here, historian Michael King (RIP) said that one reason some Pakeha felt short changed in this country was because Maori spirituality was give more creedance or value than other belief systems. (Maori students being allowed to wear greenstone and bone carvings, Indian students not being allowed to wear nose studs etc.)

    You need to look at the motives for Yun-Yuuzhan's request before you go ballistic at him. If his team wanted to learn the Haka out of respect and honour for the tradition, where's the harm in that?

    I guess my point is, before you make a blanket statement about choosing"something from your own culture", you need to have a good hard look at what "your own culture" really is.

    STH
  7. SithForceLord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2001
    star 6
    i didn't read all that /\ but will tomorrow.

    The haka is a war dance. We perform it because of some people who were here in this country before us.

    This yanky wants to know the moves to perform it before his games in his sport.

    It has no relivance to him or his country. It's our countries sybolic "pre-game" warm up.

    I also say no. But I really don't give a 5h|7. I'm not maori. I don't care. I think we only do it now so the opposition stands in the cold while we keep warm for 3minutes before kick off.

    :p
  8. SimplyThrilledHoney Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    > The haka is a war dance. We perform it because of some people who were here in this country before us.

    Who are "we"? Because I've never performed a haka. I've also never played rugby.

    My dad's an immigrant from Denmark, my mum is descended from Irish-Catholics. Neither of those two countries were partners to the Treaty of Waitangi. Would I even have a right to do a Haka in New Zealand?

    > This yanky wants to know the moves to perform it before his games in his sport.

    I would argue that for most rugby teams in New Zealand, this is all the haka really is to them too. I'm sure that the All Blacks treat the tradition with respect, but for you average high-school rugby team in the suburbs, I'm sure it's nothing more than an excuse to jump around and shout.

    Oh, and referring to an American (who, it seems, is genuinely interested in our cultural preactices) as "this yankie" is fairly culturally insensitive, in my opinion. In many parts of the us the term "Yankie" is a slur.
  9. Kitt327 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 4
    I think Yun has left already anyway, lol. Poor dude.

    But here's some interesting stuff I found:

    American Haka

    ^ from nzhistory.net, about Americans stationed here during WWII learning the haka.

    The Haka - In The Beginning

    ^ info from the New Zealand Rugby Museum about how the Haka came to be performed before nz games. There's also some interesting stuff there about early attempts by foreign teams to appropriate war dances from their own indigeneous cultures, but they never really took off.
  10. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, as a Southern, being called a Yankee does cause me to say "Ow, my pride." But on the subject of my request and the seemingly general opposition to allowing this l'etranger to learn of your culture seems a bit silly to me. I was in New Zealand for a summer two years ago and was in fact taught Ka Mate. However, I never had an occasion to perform it and quickly forgot the dance. Now that an opportunity to once again utilize it has come to being, I find myself in the unfortunate pickle of knowing of it and having known it, but unable to actually do it. Still, I understand the negative feelings towards my inquery and thank you for responding nonetheless.
  11. SimplyThrilledHoney Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    ... and may I appologise for the bullheadishness of my my fellow countrymen.

    Your enquiry seemed quite genuine to me.

    All the best with your rugby team.

    STH
  12. Yun-Yuuzhan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 4
    Oh, I take no offense; this is extremely light treatment compared to being with my friends. I love New Zealand and everyone I've ever met there. In fact I'll quite likely be moving next January to somewhere in the country. My dad's an anesthesiologist and has applied for a six-month transfer. So with any luck I'll be able to chat with you fellows on the same day in less than a year.
  13. SithForceLord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2001
    star 6
    and may I appologise for the bullheadishness of my my fellow countrymen.



    Don't appologise for me. I'll call all americans yankies and yanks just as it's a slang term for them. Such is "kiwi" for us and pom is for english.

    I said "we" in reference to this country. If you don't want to be part of that, that's fine.

    You can call me what you like STH, but culturally insensitive, just for a slang term? lol. I call my current girlfriend a yank and she's from Illinois. She has no problem with it, she knows it's just slang, is is kiwi. Christ, I'm not a small fat flightless bird. [face_plain]
  14. SimplyThrilledHoney Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 3
    > I'll call all americans yankies and yanks just as it's a slang term for them. Such is "kiwi" for us and pom is for english.

    ... the thing is, "Yankee" is a term which has emotive connotations in the way "Kiwi" doesn't. "Yankee" was used by Southerners/Confedates as a derogatory term for people in the North/Union side during the Civil War. So a Southern calling someone from the North can be insulting in some situations. Similarly, calling someone _from_ the South a "Yankee" is insulting for just the opposite reason.

    And as for "pom", I suspect you probably wouldn;t find all that many English people who refer to themselves as pom, because has similar connotations.

    Anyway, what's wrong with "English" and "American"?
  15. SithForceLord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2001
    star 6
    If it's _such_ a derogatory term, why do they have a soft ball team from New York using this horrible word?

    I'm leaving now. I never wanted to get into an argument - just that I don't think one country should use another countrys symbol, pre-sports game "dance" or otherwise.
  16. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    I also say no. But I really don't give a 5h|7. I'm not maori. I don't care.

    just that I don't think one country should use another countrys symbol, pre-sports game "dance" or otherwise.



    So.. do you care or don't you? :confused:

    I can't believe the sort of response this thread has created. Some people need to chill out.
  17. Darth_Graal Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2001
    star 4
    What a can of worms we opened here, always nice to see a little spirited debate!

    for the record the term Pom comes from the letters p.o.m.e (pommie) enscribed on the graves of convicts in australia signifying Prisoner of mother england. The term was then used by australians to describe the english as the english were still "imprisoned" in england and not living free in australia.

    The english were also called limeys by the Americans due to the fact they carried limes on their naval vessels to give to the sailors to ward of scurvey (personally I'd have been more concerned with faffing canon balls flying about! have you SEEN master and commander?)

    As for the Haka,Its is a fantastic thing to be a "Kiwi" at an international rugby match. It darn well makes your spine tingle and you feel all that national pride swelling at your breast!

    I call my current girlfriend a yank and she's from Illinois
    Ah ha! this explains why we haven't heard from you in a while, and there I was thinking you'd lost my #!!

  18. SithForceLord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2001
    star 6
    The phone works both ways Graal. Do *you* have a new girlfriend that's stopping you from calling me?

    //enter someone to say "touché"//


    :p

    Yea, I've been a bit tied up lately (almost litterally but you don't want to hear about that ;) kidding.). I'm thinking of having a midyear / early 21st so certain people can attend, as apposed to having it in December. I'll get in contact with you and Shells, cen and ena and Solo when I get my a into g and sort something out.
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