"I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you" - opinions?

Anakin is special. Qui Gon was right when he told him to "Feel...don't think...use your instincts." in TPM. He has developed attachments. He cannot be trained in the manner of traditional Jedi, yet the Jedi attempt to sever Anakin's attachments - his emotions, making him fearful and angry. Thus failing him.

Had the Jedi understood Anakin's special needs, perhaps thinking themselves, Anakin may not have fallen to the darkside.

Qui Gon was wrong to force the chance cube to fall on Anakin on Tatooine. But he was right that the boy was the one to bring balance to the Force. And when he did so, it was due to his emotions - his compassion.

 

If Anakin couldn't handle the way Jedi's are trained and are expected to be, then he shouldn't have been a Jedi. He was NEVER forced into it. It's still not the Jedi's fault that Anakin couldn't handle it. They shouldn't have been expected to give him special treatment. He was 9. Certainly young enough to learn how to act. It's not like he was a full grown man who had to re-learn a whole life's worth of teaching. And really, he hadn't seen his mom in how many years and was still that attached? Same goes for Padme. He "loved" her after only knowing her for days and still loved her YEARS later? Please. He simply was the type of person who could never let go and obsessed. Those were flaws in his personality, not flaws in what he was taught.

 

yes,they should have treated him specially,he was special no matter how much you dislike him.he was already 9 and had formed attachments,dont say that he was still young enought to be trained because the council itself says he is too old.if he shouldnt have been made a jedi then the jedi are responsible because they accepted to made him a jedi.

 

The prophecy didn't say the one who would bring balance to the Force would be a Jedi. And he wasn't. Had Anakin remained on Tatooine - that good boy - would still have found a way to bring balance.

Yoda was right. He was too old. "Clouded this boy's future is."

But of course, had QGJ, not intervened with the chance cube - we wouldn't have a "tragic" hero.

 

You know what? Everyone is special. Raising children in the exact same manner does not guarantee that they all have the same reactions or problems. I have 4 - all raised (pretty much) the same - all different.

It does make things more likely to succeed if children are raised the same from birth - that's why the Jedi did it. So yes, Anakin faced a tough challenge. But he had all those midichlorians for a reason and it just wasn't so he could fly like a demon and kill dozens at a time. "Special" excuses nothing; you can still have high standards for all.

If Anakin needed more than he got - his obligation was to speak up, to make waves, to practice civil disobediance if necessary. You can't blame the Jedi for assuming he was OK if he was hiding all his problems. Other Jedi got their special needs recognized.
And in spite of all his problems and special needs - Anakin still had the resources he needed to make the right decisions at the right time. As Obi-wan said, "Use the Force - think!" Lucas went back and re-shot that scene to put that line in for a reason. It would have saved Anakin, in spite of everything else, in spite of others' failures, if he had learned to do that.

I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that Anakin could adapt. If they treated him as "special" right off that bat that would have been crippling. You never know what a child is capable of until you challenge him or her. He wasn't mute, he wasn't w/o resources - speak up. Maybe it was part of Anakin's role to change the Jedi. Maybe, I don't know. But I do know that no system was ever changed by sneaks and liars.

QGJ was right that Anakin was the Chosen One but I don't see what this had to do w/ emotion or compassion. Emotion led him to take Anakin off of Tattoine and that was probably the worst thing he could have done at that time.

 

>>>Maybe it was part of Anakin's role to change the Jedi.

The way that Lucas wrote the story you are absolutely right!

This is why Anakin becomes a tragic hero.

The Jedi had to fall from their "Ivory Tower" to their "bog" and their "desert" and re-think the way that they had been doing things for centuries.

What would they learn from their failures?

Why had the Sith been able to rise to power and blind them?

Why had they not been able to meet Anakin's needs?

How would they change with Anakin's children to restore balance to the Force?

 

To me he's tragic because he didn't fulfill his role as peaceful catalyst for change.

They didn't have to fall in order to change. This is a fallacy. Many societies, cultures and religions change w/ out being wiped from the face of the galaxy. But only when brave people speak up.

Because he didn't tell anyone who could help, what was going on.

 

I think it's George's way of tying up the knots for Return of the Jedi. When Obi-Wan blames himself, saying that he thought he could train him just as well as Yoda, and he was wrong.

 

Anakin had attachments before the Jedi showed up. And he was already fearful before his training began. He was fearful the minute he was told that Shmi had to stay behind, by Qui-gon himself. His attachments are his undoing. He needed to let them go to become a true Jedi.

Compassion, yes. Emotions, not so much. Control over his emotions and thinking with his head is what was needed. Lucas states that Luke's greatest strength is when he stops going by his intuitions and starts thinking rationally. Anakin needed to do that and he finally does.

 

Am I the only one that thought Watto's chance cube was obviously weighted against the color he chose for Anakin?

Watto wanted to keep Anakin and Qui-Gon knew he was going to cheat. So Qui-Gon cheated the cheater and won Anakin's freedom.

That's beside the point of the discussion, but it always bothers me that people think it was going to be a fair toss of the dice.

Anyway, I think Obi-Wan felt he failed like any parent or guardian takes blame for their child's wrong-doings, regardless of actual blame.

Obi-Wan isn't literally responsible for Anakin's actions. He's just blaming himself out of grief and sadness - looking at what he could have done differently to prevent Anakin's fall.

But no one could have prevented his fall, but Anakin.

 

Well said Master JediPloKoon

 

Yeah, it was definitely not what Watto was expecting, as was proven when he tells Qui-gon afterwards that he cheated so he couldn't have the boy. This was why Qui-gon was somewhat shunned by the Council though. Because of actions like this.

And you're right, Anakin was the only one who could stop his turn, and as I posted previously it shows is that Obi-wan is a noble man while Anakin is a complainer and looking for excuses.

 

That line sounds like the words of a disappointed parent talking to their child. It's also a guilt thing. Obi-Wan was unable to get through to Anakin with reason, so he tried emotion. It worked partially - just like he partially killed anakin. After Obi-Wan says this, Anakin says "This is your end master, I wish it were otherwise" - or something to that effect.

Obi-Wan always offered a way out for Anakin, right up to the end (remember he said to Luke "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."). It wasn't until Anakin moved in for the kill (on that unwise jump), that he got nailed. Nick Gillard said that Anakin was stronger, but Obi-Wan never makes emotional mistakes in battle.

To address another issue, it was pretty obvious that with Obi-Wan on Coruscant, Sidious would not have been able to put the screws to Anakin in the same way. Anakin really had no one to confide in. Padme was not a Jedi, she had no idea what a tenuous situation Anakin was in. At the same time, if Windu had offered Anakin his trust and friendship, things would not have turned out the way they did.

He IS a pathetic character. He was a young boy with the best of intentions who was incapable of maturing at the same level as his power grew. ROTS is like a person in quicksand struggling and struggling - and making the end come that much faster. He loses everything, and is lost for 20 years because there are no ties to his humanity left. By the time he realizes that he has a son, he is so twisted that his intentions towards Luke are entirely evil. He started to drift back to humanity when he saw his son willing to die rather than join him (ESB). The end of ESB is the first, and only time (before the end of ROTJ), where you see (albeit only in body language) any humanity in him.

I suppose if the Jedi had not evolved properly to deal with the Sith, then Luke is the answer to that. He's sort of trained to be a weapon directed right at the sith. When yoda told him not to "underestimate the powers of the emperor", I think he was referring to palpatine's forsight and cunning - two things that began to falter seriously when Luke entered the picture. By ROTJ, Palpatine is as blind as Windu was in ROTS.

 

......

 

Anakin as a Tragic Hero

This is the GFFA. Lucas based the fall of the Republic on the fall of several well known historical democracies.

This idea of a democracy being given up and in many cases being given up in a time of crisis... you see it throughout history, whether it's Julius Caesar, or Napoleon, or Adolph Hitler, you see these democracies under a lot of pressure, in a crisis situation, who end up giving up a lot of the freedoms they have and a lot of the checks and balances to somebody with a strong authority to help get them through the crisis.

You know, it's not the first time a politician has created a war trying to stay in office.

~George Lucas, AOTC DVD Audio Commentary


I'm not convinced that Anakin would have been heard if he had spoken up. When we hear him express concern about his dreams about his mother in AOTC Obi Wan dismisses them, saying they will pass. The Jedi don't understand Anakin's attachments, and do not adapt to cope with them.

In fact, Anakin becomes more obsessive about his attachments after he is unable to prevent the death of his mother. His love for Padmé is a profane/obsessive love and is his initial motivation for seeking the powers of the darkside (to prevent her death in childbirth).

"Too old was I" Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who trained me, long centuries ago - but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed the Order did not - because let it change, I did not."

Revenge of the Sith Novelization p. 409.

The Jedi will learn from these mistakes in dealing with Anakin's children.

"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn." ~Yoda

Revenge of the Sith Novelization p. 412.

 

I really think Obi Wan felt a big lose once he realised Anakin turned to the dark side and wiped out all the Jedi Knights, including the Younglins, at the Jedi Temple...

Obi Wan felt guilty for not being a great mentor, or training Anakin, just as well as Yoda. He thought he had failed Anakin also because he had the burden to destroy him when he considered Anakin as his friend and his brother... He prefered to kill the Emperor rather than Anakin, but Yoda assigned Obi Wan with the burden of destroying Darth Vader, Palpatine's new apprentice, since he wasn't powerful enough to kill the Emperor...

 

The Order could have survived the fall of the Republic if the right decisions had been made. Heck the Republic could have been saved if the people of the Republic felt it was worth saving. What Palps was up to w/ the war speaks to the Jedi failure to realize (until it was too late!) that the Republic was eroding right before their eyes. It has nothing to do with the extremely poor choices Anakin made.

Whether that's true or not it does not remove his obligation to do so. Before you sneak around, lie and break oaths, you have to at least try. It's the honorable thing to do.

Actually it's Obi who expresses his concern. "You look tired." "Because of your mother?" Ani dismisses them. "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her now." If he doesn't know - why would Obi?
But he invites him to talk more, "Dreams pass in time," is an open-ended statement. Ani can come back w/ "Not these," or "I think this is more than a dream," Or ANYTHING to keep the subject on his mother - but what does he do? He changes the subject. He starts talking about Padme (about how intoxicating she is). Excuse Obi-wan for not knowing how worried Ani was when he'd rather talk about his lust object than his mother.

They can't cope w/ something they don't know about. They've made accomadations for the special situations of other Jedi - Ki-Adi Mundi was married (several times.) Maybe they would have helped Ani - but not if he didn't try to get help.

This is Ani over-estimating his power. His power had gone to his head.

If he hadn't been sneaking around hiding that love it probably wouldn't have gotten that bad.

Yes, yes, maybe it was the job of some younger one, say some, oh I don't know - "Chosen One" to help the Order change. But hmmm, maybe that Chosen One didn't even try. Didn't speak up. Didn't make waves.
He let the Order down in more ways than one.