CT I have not watched the new Star Wars Blu-Rays.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by UK Sullustian, Sep 17, 2012.

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  1. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Hey, no worries! I totally understand where you're coming from and I completely agree!

    Sometimes it's hard to get the true meaning of something across the internet.
  2. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    You're right not to.

    The set is an epic embarrassment.

    Don't waste your time.
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  3. Endor_Commando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2007
    star 1
    Yes, I do know that, but you know what I mean.
  4. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No, now it's a new one. But I liked the one from the DVDs, though.
  5. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    The updated "NO!" in Return of the Jedi doesn’t bother me the slightest.

    Fans have ranted on about how the scene played better originally because it kept Vader’s emotions hidden behind the mask, thus allowing the audience to project what he was feeling-and-thinking at that intense moment. It’s a valid assessment, no doubt; I always thought the same about the scene as well. And yet...

    Imagine if the Blu-ray version of the scene had been the original version all along, going back to the original making and theatrical release; if an entire generation of Star Wars fans grew up with Vader shouting out loud as he lifts the Emperor before throwing him to his doom. No one would have complained about the line because, objectively speaking, it works just fine. It’s not like he yells out, "Muffins!" or something. It fits in dramatically with the moment and people wouldn’t have given it a second thought. If anything, it could have very well become yet another classic quoted scene amongst the Star Wars lexicon. Now, following this alternate scenario to its logical conclusion, imagine that when Lucas eventually released the Blu-ray set last year, he opted to remove the line so that Vader turns on the Emperor in silence. Guys, let’s be honest here. Fans the world over would be bitching to no end that Lucas royally screwed a classic moment of the Star Wars saga:

    "What was he thinking?!"

    "I can’t believe he did that!"

    "He totally neutered Darth Vader at his most defiant moment!"

    "Why, George, why?!"

    "Thanks for continuing to rape our childhoods, Luca$"

    Blah, blah, blah... Sound familiar? It should. People would be making all sorts of in-depth arguments as to why the original "NO!" version was perfect and how the new 'silent Vader' versions undermines this or that or whatever. My point here is that in both cases the criticisms are ENTIRELY RELATIVE. Again, the scene works fine both ways. I can understand why people would be initially adverse to the change; it raised an eyebrow of chagrin when I first saw the clip myself. But having since watch the film (the entire saga) all the way through, I think new version is equally powerful, just in a different form. It’s simply a matter of acclimatization – adjusting one’s mindset.
    Last edited by Ingram_I, Sep 19, 2012
  6. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I don't want to get into a big fight over it, I_I.

    My argument would simply be this...

    Why do it? :confused:

    Why? [face_thinking]

    It's not the kind of thing that's going to make the fans happy.

    I'd say a lot of them are at their wits end when it comes to Lucas.

    Nowadays, it almost seems like it is done on purpose to alienate a percentage of the fan base because we didn't bend over and declare the prequels to be God's gift to filmmaking.

    Personally, I think the guy has a very passive aggressive personality.

    He doesn't want his feelings hurt, but he does things that defy logic and reason. And then he is somehow surprised and shocked when he is criticized for it.

    To be honest, I think he may actually have a screw loose.

    In my opinion, I think he is very bitter about what happened with the PT.

    Now I am not an unsympathetic person. However, I know a couple of people who worked on TPM and they told me that he was way more interested in marketing the film to death than in what was actually going into said film. There were plenty of news reports about the over-marketing of TPM.

    I'm sorry, that's a problem. A big one.

    When your main concern is not for the cow, but instead for how you can milk the animal to death, well…
    Last edited by Melancholy, Sep 19, 2012
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  7. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Because Lucas is an editor first and foremost, above all else. Always has been. He thinks like an editor: shrewd to one extent -- always striving for economy -- but also open minded to the possibility of change; even after their completion, he views his films organically. No, it’s not a conventional approach and it certainly isn’t the most popular sentiment in contrast to the majority of fans and filmmakers who think movies should remain unaltered and museum-like after their release to the public; and that after their release, they belong to the public domain (which is bullshit, by the way, but that’s just me), yet an editorial expression is no less valid than a stagnant one. For a filmmaker who operates on this level, its not unreasonable to think that after completing an entire prequel trilogy back-story to his original trilogy, said prequels would greatly determine how Lucas views that saga as a whole, and that he would further sculpt and mold his original films to coincide. It’s already been mentioned here and elsewhere why Vader shouting “NO!” has a certain cyclical quality apparent throughout the entire saga. Also, his vocal outrage marks a closer personality match to the haughty Anakin Skywalker we see in the latter two prequels. So right there are a couple of likely reasons why Lucas made the change.

    But it seems to demand some kind of justification as to why any artist does this or that with their own work. If the changes Lucas makes to the original trilogy are seemingly petty, by very definition does that not make the complaints equally petty? I’ve already proposed an argument as to why these alterations are sincere on Lucas’ end; that just leaves on your end, along with every other disgruntled fan, the question as to why its such a big deal. Again, I understand the natural chaffing you might feel to how something you grew up with being one way is now presented in a (slightly) different way. What I don’t understand is how you guys simply cant get over it and move on. That doesn’t mean you have to like these changes; you’re personal preferences are your own, I would never argue otherwise, and you have every right to express your subjective opinions here or anywhere else. But you can disagree with the creative decisions of an artist without having to discredit the artist as a human being, which leads us to the following...

    Sounds to me like you’re projecting onto George Lucas nasty motives as way to validate your own slander -- fueling your own fire. So Lucas is doing all of this because he’s an emotionally disturbed man-child who‘s trying to pick a fight? What’s next, he eats babies? Tears the tags off mattresses? Just because a filmmaker does something eccentric with his own film doesn’t mean there’s something fundamentally wrong with him or that he’s out to burn the world. This is your little war, and no one else‘s. Your baggage, not his. And I’ve never heard any real surprise or shock from Lucas because people didn’t like his movies. I’ve never heard him complain, but rather explain. In other words, whenever he talks about negative fan reactions during interviews it’s precisely because he’s being asked about it; and to that extent his responses have always been more philosophical than anything else. His whole manner about the issue has typically been expressed with a ‘whaddya-gonna-do?’ shrug. He hardly comes across as someone so twisted by fan-base disapproval that he would make arbitrary changes to his own movies simply out of spite ...just reading that back to myself sounds completely ludicrous.
    Well, okay, you’ll have to forgive me if all this sounds rather dubious. You know a couple of people who, what, worked alongside Lucas intimately throughout the conception and production of The Phantom Menace? Was one of them Rick McCallum or John Williams or any one of the head visual effects supervisors, or we’re these just a couple of guys sweeping floors on a soundstage, or maybe a guy delivering coffee one day who saw Lucas in a meeting room with marketing executives? I’m not questioning the possibility that you may “know people”, but I am questioning the likely limited perceptions of these two individuals and the sweeping judgment you’ve made based thereon. It’s just such a vague, oversimplified and equally scattershot assessment of what I’m sure was massive enterprise with many different faucets that each required George Lucas’ full attention.

    Obviously the marketing of the film was vital. When financing your movies at over a hundred million apiece, working to insure their box office success -- in part by making sure they’re marketed as well as can be -- is kinda, sorta, maybe important. Otherwise you risk not turning a profit; as in, not enough profit to finance your next Star Wars movie, at least not with full creative control. Long ago Lucas achieved his financial independence from the Hollywood system, but he still has to maintain that independence. So I have no doubt that selling his movie the globe over likely had its own department. Does that mean the artistic integrity of the film suffered as a result? Such an argument falls under the misguided assumption that art and commercialism are somehow mutually exclusive. They aren’t. George Lucas already had more money than he would ever see way back in the mid 90s when he started writing his outlines for the prequels. If simply getting more money had been his top priority, he could have sold the franchise rights to someone else for a fortune. Instead, he spent, at the very least, a decade of his life (and who knows how much of his own money) writing, producing and directing an entire prequel trilogy. And for what, that much more money? Sorry, the logic of basic human behavior says otherwise and, like it or loath it, there is simply way to much personal eccentricity in The Phantom Menace to dismiss its underlying function as being nothing more than a cash-cow. Nobody focused primarily on making money from a movie is going to bother injecting into its storyline crazy ideas about midi-chlorians. Both in content and style, I see in the prequels nothing but sincere artistic expression, if not downright weirdness.
    Last edited by Ingram_I, Sep 20, 2012
  8. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    If Lucas is simply trolling OOOT fans, you think he could do better than a rock and a no. For a start I suggest deleting Han and inserting Jar Jar (captain of the Century Gungan) in his place.
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  9. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    There would be riots outside Skywalker Ranch.
  10. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    I propose that for the Super Blu-ray 3D 'Death Sticks' Addition Lucas alters it so that Han and Greedo shoot at the same time (which they kinda already do, anyhow) and their blaster bolts bounce off one another and start ricocheting all over the cantina before drilling Greedo and exploding his head. And then Han looks at the camera and sings, "Wackity schmackity doo!"


    Oh, and at the end of Jedi have the ghost of Henry Jones, Sr. appear alongside Anakin, Yoda and Ben.
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  11. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Add in a Willow character to the above and I believe I've found my perfect version of Star Wars.

    As long as it is released on low definition VHS, that is.
  12. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Except that's the precise reason why many of us Vader fans dislike the change. A forty-something man should be at least a little more mature and rational than a twenty-year-old. Also, the Anakin we saw in the PT was someone on his way to the dark side. His "redeemed" personality should be something different than what we've seen before, a product of his life experience up to that point. This is the same problem as I have with the Hayden Christensen ghost: the implication is we've just gone through a timewarp to erase the events of the last two decades. What kind of statement about redemption and lessons learned and the return of the prodigal son is that?

    Side note: I too chose not to buy the Blu-Rays as my own feeble little act of protest. Yes, Lucas can do whatever he wants to his intellectual property... but I'm equally entitled to do whatever I want with my money, as are the other fans who chose not to buy it, without being called sad.
    Last edited by Dark Lady Mara, Sep 20, 2012
  13. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The Hayden Christensen ghost is not a time warp, its a self-identity thing for Anakin.
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  14. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    So instead of identifying as the mature Jedi he would have been (and arguably was when he overthrew the Emperor), he identifies as an angsty 21 year old?

    That's still bothersome. Doesn't make Anakin look very good compared to Obi-Wan and Yoda, either.
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  15. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    He doesn't look very good compared to Obi and Yoda when he's in Grandpa mode either, unless you forget that saving his own son's butt is the only good thing Gramps has done for decades.
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  16. P.Sam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2011
    star 1
    I've not watched the SW Blu rays too for the simple reason that I've no Blu Ray player nor any BR disc. I am still DVD and satisfied by it now. I've the six films and do not feel the need to buy the whole Saga again for the moment, though it may be in HD. I've always had good time watching these films in DVD and that haven't change. But I think that's interesting and a good thing that SW is on all platforms so to suit the need and interest of everyone who wants to watch them.
    Last edited by Betakus, Sep 20, 2012
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  17. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    For me, the OT deleted scenes are worth the price of admission alone, if you're into that sort of thing. Look at how much effort many fans have put into researching deleted scenes, tracking down tiny snippets of footage, photos and so on over the years - well, here's just about all of them, presented in HD. Great stuff, and I don't think there was any need to fiddle with them too much (i.e. put new FX on). Cleaned up nicely enough to watch, and you get a glimpse of the OT universe beyond what was in the films.
    The special features really were impressive - the three vintage docos, heaps of parodies, etc etc etc. Not exactly comprehensive - the original PT deleted scenes weren't there - but WTH. I've already got them on DVD.

    Oh, that's right, you get the films in HD, and they look great. Yes they've got a few MORE changes, but by now I just think the issue has gone into the realm of farce, and I treat it as such. My missus & I made "NOOOOOO!!!" a running joke the whole weekend after the clip first surfaced. "You got a drink?" "NOOOOOOO..."
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  18. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    This is probably going to need two posts.

    Really?

    IMDB lists him as editing one film in his professional career, that film being THX1138.

    The rest are listed as Uncrediited.

    Is he trying to pass himself off as an editor now because Marcia was an Oscar winning one on a little movie called Star Wars?

    That’s one word for it.[face_whistling]

    I’m pretty sure Lucas has echoed these sentiments in the past.


    He tends to forget such things when it suits him.

    And exactly why would that be?

    Why not further mold and sculpt the disappointing films… the prequels?

    Why alter the films that were responsible for putting him in a position to make the PT in the first place?

    It seems to me that you have a lot of that Lucas brand of logic working for you.


    Cyclical quality? Come on, man.

    It was added to ROTJ because it was the one thing most ripped on by the fans when it came to Episode III.

    Isn’t it interesting that the thing even the apologists complained about somehow made its way into what one could arguably say was the biggest moment in the history of the saga?
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  19. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    No, I don’t see how you arrive at that conclusion.

    Someone noticing another’s pettiness and calling them out on it does not make the awareness of the aforementioned pettiness inconsequential.

    I love the analysis.

    Why is it such a big deal?

    Why do you get to assess the value level/level of importance to what he’s done?

    Slightly different?

    Who are you to assign the intensity level?

    Get over it and move on?

    This is typical apologist speak.

    It’s just my opinion of the man.

    Oh, really?

    "On the internet, all those same guys that are complaining I made a change are completely changing the movie." - George Lucas

    "I’m saying: 'Fine. But my movie, with my name on it, that says I did it, needs to be the way I want it.'" - George Lucas

    "Why would I make any more when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?" - George Lucas

    For the record, the second one would be pettiness and the third would be bitterness. [face_tee_hee]

    I know that he signs off on everything. That’s a fact.

    First of all, The Phantom Menace did not have a one-hundred million dollar budget. Not even close.


    Second, I wasn’t talking about Episode II or Episode III, just The Phantom Menace. There were numerous news stories and articles about the over-marketing of the film. He toned it down on AOTC and ROTS because of how poorly TPM was received, the negative stories about over-marketing it, and the metric tons of merchandise that languished on store shelves.

    Third, I never said he made the PT for strictly monetary concerns. What I’ve said is that he wrote and directed three terrible films that have done incredible damage to the legacy of the franchise.
    Last edited by Melancholy, Sep 21, 2012
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  20. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5


    You think it's pettiness.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Sep 21, 2012
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  21. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I would say the "incredible demage" only exists in your mind.

    What do you think is the reason Lucas didn't direct many of his movies himself?
    I came out of editing and I've worked as an editor, so my whole focus on filmmaking is as an editor. The script is just a rough sketch of what I'm going to do, and filming is just gathering the materials - but the editing is how I create the final draft.
    George Lucas, 1999.
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  22. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2

    Most directors are not credited as editors of their own film. Instead, it is the actual technician working the technology. But it’s largely a collaborative process between the two and that the involvement of the director can often be extreme, to the point where they oversee and correct to their liking virtually every shot of the entire cut. The process often involves both the editor and the director together in the editing room for long periods of time. This is common knowledge to anyone with a basic, layman understanding of the filmmaking business. Most Directors don’t actually light their own films either, nor do they craft their own costumes, props, set designs or visual effects hands-on. But all of these aspects and more ultimately fall under the director’s creative control. Editing is no different; the credited editor’s job is to fulfill the vision of the director. Again, common sense. You’re simply being obtuse.

    Anyhow, my point is that, due to his training and background, Lucas’ overall sensibility of the medium -- his approach and reflection -- is that of an editor; not simply cutting scenes together, but the rearrangement or redoing of anything that constellates a specific scene or the film as a whole, including visual effects, music, sound and, in this case, dialogue. The results speak for themselves, like them or not.
    George Lucas has never claimed that an artist hasn’t the right to alter their own work. When speaking about preserving "cultural history", it’s about preserving for the public the artist’s vision after that individual has passed.

    There’s no "brand" of anything. It's just one subjective approach the medium versus another. This isn’t journalism. Lucas is not documenting some real part of history only to go back years later and change facts. Star Wars is entirely fiction, and fiction is a means of self-expression, which is something that naturally changes as the filmmaker expands and further explores his story. Exploring new ideas and dramatic turns often means reassessing prior content, and the original trilogy does not have some absolute monopoly on the saga as a whole nor is it immune to change simply because it came first. Such is an arbitrary rule, one that forces linearism and declares that an artist is not allowed to edit. Practically speaking, the prequel trilogy was made to fit the originals, but that doesn’t mean Lucas can’t make certain readjustments to the latter – be they cosmetic, dramatic or thematic – as way to shape the whole. And why should he alter the prequels to make them less "disappointing"? Is that how it works now – slavery? Lucas is a filmmaker, not a dancing monkey.

    Again, your baggage. A more simple explanation would be: Lucas put the "NO!" in Return of the Jedi in part because he wanted it mirror the "NO!" in Revenge of the Sith. He saw an opportunity to further emphasize a recurring motif (the same line is dramatically exclaimed throughout the saga by others as well), so he took it ...for his own piece of mind, his own vision. You’re argument falls under the assumption that Lucas’ world of filmmaking-and-remaking revolves around you and others alike. Don’t flatter yourself.
  23. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    If you’re simply claiming that Lucas alterations are petty as you see it, fine. I’ve made my argument as to why he might see things differently. Regardless, my end point is that to further complain about these alleged trivial changes – downright refusing to watch the Blu-rays – seems trivial itself.
    You lost me here. Completely. Again, by "getting over it" I’m not demanding that you must like or even accept the changes Lucas made to the original trilogy. You certainly don’t have to purchase and watch any version of Star Wars you don’t want. And if you’re unhappy with these changes, if you don’t think they work, this is of course the perfect place to express and further elaborate your opinions as to why. But attempting to validate or justify these opinions beyond subjectivity by discrediting the actions and intentions of Lucas an artist paints you as someone harboring ill will.
    And likewise my opinion of you, at least based on your comments.

    Okay, so? None of this negates the fact that he’s simply responding to the questions of the interviewer. He’s explaining his view on the matter, from which you conclude that he’s out to start some war with a negative fan-base? That’s a pretty extreme jump. Given the reactions to his work, the above responses seem perfectly reasonable.
    The rights of an artist to his/her own work (that they paid for) is petty? I would think it fundamental myself.
    Pot, kettle, black.

    Of course he does. It’s his project and his money. But what’s your point? How does this fact support your initial argument that Lucas’ values profit over art?
    IMDB, Wikipedia and BoxOffice Mojo have the budget for The Phantom Menace listed at an estimated $115 million.
    I would reason that Lucas’ marketing decisions for Episodes II and III were determined primarily by the financial success of Episode I, not its mixed critical reception. I don’t recall the marketing for the latter two prequels being any lesser than the first. I also don’t recall any merchandizing failure for Episode I or, at the very least, I seem to remember there being plenty of Episode II and III characters showing up as toys and on the cover of Pepsi cans, cereal boxes, clothing accessories and various other Star Wars themed collectibles. But even if all of this was in fact toned down, again, I fail to see the point. My only argument is that marketing and merchandizing, however fluxed by business strategy, was a necessary means for Lucas to turn enough profit to continue self-financing; and that doing so does not by default (or even logically) undermine the artistic integrity or sincerity of his films.
    You may have said that elsewhere, but I was merely responding to the following quiote:
    Last edited by Ingram_I, Sep 21, 2012
  24. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I haven't watched the Blu Rays either. I prefer the films pre-Special Edition. I've seen deleted scenes online but I'm not in a rush to watch more behind-the-scenes stuff.
    I don't have a Blu Ray player anyway and haven't been motivated to get one. I have a DVD player that holds five discs; I like having something that holds five discs instead of just one. I have yet to see anything released on Blu Ray that hasn't been available on DVD, so when that happens, then I will bother to evaluate Blu Ray players.
    Anyway, why is so hard for people to understand we watch movies we want to see? It doesn't matter if a movie is "his work the way he wants it to be" or whatever, if we like it one way, then we just do. It's no different from preferring one version of Terminator 2 over another, one version of Cinema Paradiso over another. Not liking each change done to the films doesn't diminish fandom, nor does choosing not to spend $90 for a version I don't prefer. In 2004, I bought the DVD set just to see how it looked, listen to the commentaries, and watch the extras. Once I did that, I sold the set. I just can't accept always watching the films with those changes. Yes I know "original unaltered release" or "THX One Last Time" release and such had variations, but that's what I was use to experiencing for years. The alterations since 1997 stand out as drastically different.
    Last edited by Bobatron, Sep 21, 2012
  25. Ingram_I Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Where is the opposition to this argument? Who exactly are these people demanding that you watch one version over the other? I don’t think anyone has any problem understanding why you might prefer the pre-special edition original trilogy. For me, the only argument I’ve made on this thread is why I think the added "NO!" to Return of the Jedi is not devoid of its own value, particularly regarding the now complete six-part saga.
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