"I have the high ground". What does Darth Maul think of that?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Froghurt, Oct 3, 2006.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Except that would've damned the galaxy to an enternity of darkness. And he couldn't kill someone who was once a brother and friend to him.
  2. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    Exactly, sinister. Apart from no ep. IV-VI if sith_rising's situation was the case, Kenobi is conflicted and doesn't really want to kill Anakin/Vader ('Don't try it, Anakin, I have the higher ground'-- does that sound like a guy who really wants to kill his opponent?), and besides, is obligated by Jedi ethics not to kill an unarmed (literally!) and defenseless opponent. I think Obi-Wan is acting here, in fact, as a true instrument of the Force, in contrast to his former padawan who we would normally expect the role to fall to. Anakin is meant by the Force to kill off the Sith--> he's being stubborn about it--> Kenobi is sent as warning and then punishment for collaborating with the Sith instead of erradicating them. In this case, too, killing Anakin serves no purpose. He has yet to fulfil his obligation. Hence, instead, he is sent into a hellish purgatory (his suit, etc) until he does what he's supposed to. Yes, the Force (perhaps through the agent of conscience) is with Kenobi, and it's telling him he can't kill Anakin/Vader. I think that explains the duel nicely.

    Of course, out of universe, Kenobi is the agent of George Lucas and not the Force... but that's another discussion...
  3. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    But Obi-Wan doesn't know that. As far as he's concerned, killing Darth Vader will save the universe in the here-and-now. He let Anakin live out of sympathy. The decision to guard Luke and train him didn't come until later. Going by what he knew in ROTS, he should have killed Anakin. Yoda would have.
  4. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    Sure, rationally, going by what he knew in ROTS, he should have killed Anakin. That doesn't mean that sympathy was a weakness. Let me explain:

    I explained that I thought Obi-Wan was, at that point in time, an agent of the Force. What else could (at least some sorts of) sympathy be in the Star Wars universe but a property of the Connecting, Binding Force (Darksiders don't pay attention to this-- they tell the Force what to do, they're not told what to do by the Force)? Obi-Wan's sympathy for Ana-Vader would flow from the Force, which needs Anakin alive to fulfil his destiny. It is prompting him to do something illogical, but which turns out for the better eventually. Clearly, he's doing something right. :p
  5. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    He might be unknowingly acting through the Force, but even twenty years later, he still thinks Vader should be killed. He knew he should have killed Vader when he had the chance, and probably regrets letting Vader live. Only Luke believes Vader can be saved.
  6. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Nice:)
  7. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    Precisely. It's not on a conscious level. Are instincts ever conscious? :)
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    So what's the difference Sinister?

    Kenobi left him there to die, anyways.

    Why not be MERCIFUL, and end Skywalker's suffering.
    I mean the dude is all chopped up, and on fire... forget the mantra about killing an unarmed-foe. No one can convince me that Kenobi walked away thinking Anakin would live. (And) I know all about the cut dialogue as well, and those few lines don't answer the question either. No matter how it is spun, Sith or not, Kenobi left Skywalker for dead.

    What about Jedi compassion?

    (Yes, Anakin deserved all he got, but that isn't the discussion)

  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    As the novelization pointed out, he was not feeling merciful. Anakin had to die and he was not going to kill him directly. Nor was he going to betray his vow to kill an unarmed person. This is the price one pays for having morals. You have to choose and the choice is never easy. He chose to let the fire kill him and as he left Mustafar, that's exactly what happened. He left him to die. He did not know that Sidious was still alive and on his way to pick up Anakin.
  10. Froghurt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2006
    star 1
    It just struck me as being a paticularly odd line/ situation given the events of Episode 1.... unless Lucas purposly did it to contrast the endings. I understand the Sith arrogance thing, perhaps that is what is being highlighted...

    Someone also mentioned why Obi Wan didnt kill Anakin because he "couldnt kill his brother". So what he could do instead watch him suffer in horrendous pain & agony? What about putting someone out of their misery....?
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    As I said, morals. They can be a pain as well as a blessing. He couldn't bring himself to make it painless just as he couldn't bring himself to help him. He made a choice, one that made the most sense to him in that moment, in a universe that had become senseless to him.
  12. Froghurt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2006
    star 1

    Can someone give me a bit of the cut dialogue from this scene...?
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Here you go Froghurt:

    Fighting Words
    By T-bone
    Published: December 17, 2005



    Whether it's Padmé or Obi-Wan talking to Anakin, the scenes in EPISODE III that take place on Mustafar are loaded with fighting words. Padmé and Anakin have a domestic spat first and then Obi-Wan joins in and takes the floor for a while. There are also a few lines from the climactic duel that got lost in the editing room, but thankfully not in the novel, comic, script and other materials.


    Here's the scripted version as seen in the published script:


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    195 EXT. MUSTAFAR-LANDING PLATFORM-DAY

    The sleek NABOO SKIFF lands on the Mustafar landing platform near Anakin's GREEN STARFIGHTER. ANAKIN runs up to the SKIFF as the ramp lowers. PADME runs to him.

    ANAKIN
    Padmé, I saw your ship...

    They embrace.

    PADME
    Oh, Anakin!

    ANAKIN
    It's all right, you're safe now.
    What are you doing out here?

    PADME
    I was so worried about you.
    Obi-Wan told me terrible things.

    ANAKIN
    What things?

    PADME
    He said you have turned to the
    dark side... that you killed
    younglings.

    ANAKIN
    Obi-Wan is trying to turn
    you against me.

    PADME
    He cares about us.

    ANAKIN
    Us??!

    PADME
    He knows...
    He wantsto help you.

    ANAKIN
    Is Obi-Wan going to protect you?
    He can't... he can't help you.
    He's not strong enough.

    PADME
    Anakin, all I want is your love.

    ANAKIN
    Love won't save you, Padmé
    Only my new powers can do that.

    PADME
    At what cost? You are a good
    person. Don't do this.

    ANAKIN
    I won't lose you the way I
    lost my mother! I've become
    more powerful than any Jedi
    has ever dreamed of and
    I've done it for you.
    To protect you.

    PADME
    Come away with me.
    Help me raise our child.
    Leave everything else
    behind while we still can.

    ANAKIN
    Don't you see, we don't have
    to run away anymore. I have
    brought peace to the Republic. I
    am more powerful than the Chancellor.
    I can overthrow him, and together
    you and I can rule the galaxy.
    Make things the way we want
    them to be.

    PADME
    I don't believe what I'm hearing...
    Obi-Wan was right. You've changed.

    ANAKIN
    I don't want to hear any more
    about Obi-Wan. The Jedi turned
    against me. Don't you turn against me.

    PADME
    I don't know you anymore.
    Anakin, you're breaking my
    heart. I'll never stop loving
    you, but you are going down
    a path I can't follow.

    ANAKIN
    Because of Obi-Wan?

    PADME
    Because of what you've done...
    what you plan to do. Stop,
    stop now. Come back!
    I love you.

    ANAKIN
    (seeing Obi-Wan)
    Liar!

    (PADME turns around and. sees OBI-WAN standing in the doorway of the Naboo Cruiser.)

    PADME
    No!

    ANAKIN
    You're with him. You've betrayed
    me! You brought him here to kill me!

    PADME
    NO! Anakin. I swear... I...

    (ANAKIN reaches out, and PADME grabs her throat as she starts to choke.)

    OBI-WAN
    Let her go, Anakin.

    ANAKIN
    What have you and she been up to?

    OBI-WAN
    Let her go!

    ANAKIN releases his grip on the unconscious PADME and she crumples to the ground.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now, there's nothing all that out of the ordinary there. It's mostly just extra lines here and there. If you look at the novel and the comic you'll see similar variations. The key thing that's not mentioned here is the fact that originally, Anakin flung Padmé up against a wall when he let her go. This was changed later on and Padmé's body was moved to a different location. There's a photo down below from Starwars.com that actually shows Padmé in her original position near the wall, plus if you look at the comic version you'll see the artistic version.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ANAKIN i
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The dialogue was changed during production. Lucas and Ewan discussed how Obi-wan should say his final words to Anakin and they both changed the dialogue.

    After the first complete take, Lucas and McGregor discuss where he should say each line: "As you watch Anakin slide down, how about if you take one step forward," Lucas suggests. "For a moment, you think about it. Your first impulse is to save him- but then you realize you can't."

    As the takes multiply and the actors find their rhythm and emotions, the scene becomes more and more powerful. Christensen yells, "I hate you!"

    McGregor says, "I love you. But I will not help you." Lucas explains that what Obi-Wan's really saying to Anakin is: "You were our only hope- and you blew it. Now we don't have any hope."

    Take. After Anakin implores Obi-Wan to save him, George asks Ewan to say "I will not..." softer, almost to himself. Take. "After he bursts into flames," Lucas directs, "it's as if you're talking to a dead person. To a piece of toast." He suggests, to drive home this point, that McGregor change the words in the script to the past tense, "I loved you."

    The actor acquiesces, but points out that his subsequent line would have to change to "But I could not help you." Lucas agrees, and Tenggren alters the script accordingly.

    --ROTS Visual Dictionary, page 136.
  15. DarthLegion012 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2006
    star 1

    I will try to explain you.Rememmber this part of the movie:

    (Anakin cuts off Count Dookus hands)

    Palpatine - Good, Anakin, good.Kill him.Kill him now.

    Anakin - I shouldn't.It's not a Jedi way.

    And this is probably first reason why obi-Wan was not finished Anakin.Its not a jedi way to kill unarmed person, or prisioner.

    The second reason why he could not do it is because Anakin was like brother to him.

    Third reason would be (maybe) because he thought that Anakin couldn't survive (rememmber that when Obi-Wan last seen Anakin this one was burning)
  16. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Yet, in the OT, Obi-Wan advocates the killing of Darth Vader by his own son. He knew he should have killed Vader on Mustafar, and I'm sure Yoda never let him let it down. Of course, Yoda didn't fare any better against Sidious, so he can't point fingers.
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    What a shame that Kenobi lied to Luke. [face_shame_on_you]
    Kenobi was hoping to trick him into doing something that he didn't have the guts to do himself.:eek:


    Man, Kenobi was shady!
  18. Froghurt Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2006
    star 1
    Thanks for the above Sith Star Slayer. Very informative.
    Im paticularly dissapointed that the below quote didnt make it.

    ANAKIN
    Don't make me destroy you,
    Master. You're no match for
    the dark side.

    OBI-WAN
    I've heard that before,
    Anakin... but I never
    thought I'd hear it from
    you.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Remember that Obi-wan left Anakin to die on Mustafar. As far as he knew, that's what happened. He had no clue that Yoda failed to kill Sidious and that the Dark Lord would save Anakin. That is why when he does learn that he is alive, he tells Luke that he has to do this. Obi-wan realized that he dropped the ball and now has to have Luke finish it.
  20. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Yet that's all open for interpretation. There are dozens of pages in several threads that argue that Obi-Wan only prepped Luke to kill Vader as a last resort, and that he hope if anyone could finally help Anakin fulfill the prophecy, it was his child.
  21. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    According to the movies, Obi-Wan and Yoda mislead Luke and trained him for the sole purposes of becoming a Jedi Knight, killing Vader, and killing the Emperor. By that point, neither of them believed that Anakin could be saved.
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    There could be a million pages Scummy, and it wouldn't matter. There was no prophecy when Kenobi laid the Jedi sales pitch on Luke in '77. He never once mentioned any balance to the force either. He set Luke up to face Vader, but why?

    To kill him.
    Why else would an old Jedi in hiding recruit someone with Force potential when the galaxy is run by the Sith?

    And to further my cause, it can be argued that the ghost of Kenobi gave Luke the "more machine than man, twisted blah..." speech to try to remove any sympathy for his remaining humanity. Kenobi and Yoda wanted the Sith dead, and Luke was their best shot at getting it done, so they lied(Kenobi) and with held the truth(Yoda).

    So IMO, they were no better than Sidious was when he lied in his recruitment of Anakin. The Jedi and the Sith throughout the whole saga have demonstrated that BOTH sides are willing to twist the truth to suit their agenda.

    So even though I love ya Scummy [face_love], I gotta agree with Sinister... Kenobi recruited Luke for the sole purpose of finishing the mission that he failed to complete.


    EDIT:



    Once again, you are on point. Man... do you ever sleep?[face_laugh]


    EDIT 2:

    When I was in the shower I realized something else, when Kenobi pitched Luke in '77, Vader wasn't his father yet. So in light of that, there was no reason for Kenobi to encourage Luke to spare or redeem Vader. It was all about taking him out.;)
  23. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I could argue it all day fellas, but this isn't the thread for it. ;) But there is absolutely nothing written in stone about Obi-Wan's intent.
  24. DarthLegion012 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2006
    star 1

    I absolutelly agree with you.Sith_rising should return to original thread.
  25. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Thread Drift, it happens.
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