I JUST HAD THIS THOUGHT ABOUT SIDUOUS/PALPATINE!!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by houstros5, Mar 4, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Angst Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2000
    star 2
    As far as RM or GL lying for the sake of throwing the fans a fantastic curve, no I don't think they even care enough about the fans to do that. It'd be nice if we get some cool shocks in AOTC though. Otherwise, what else is there? We know what Anakin becomes, we know who Sidious is and we know Obi Wan is the real father of Luke and Leia. :p
  2. Doikk-Na-ts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 20, 2002
    star 2
    I personally think there's more to the Palpatine/Darth Sidious thing that meets the eye, but that's because I like overly complicated plot lines...Oakessteve
    My sentiments exactly.
    The best reason to discount he clone idea that I can think of would be found in the EU. Clones feel wierd in the force and stuff, but I won't go there in here.
  3. General_Lando Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    Maybe the reason no one can sense palpatine's dark forces is becuase the good forces of the jedi are too strong wherever he is and thus cancelled out like with yoda on degobah.
  4. Yodimus_Prime Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 2
    When Qui Gon fights Maul for the first time, later he doesn't say, "man, that guy was just flowing with dark energy. he must've been a Sith for sure."

    nope. He says he hasn't a clue what it was. In fact, he says it was trained in the jedi arts, potentially believing Maul may be a rogue Jedi or something. So hiding a dark presence should be cake for Sideous, even in front of a bunch of council members.
  5. DarthYosef Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2001
    star 1
    About the Jedi not being able to sense Palpatine...

    Even if they would normally sense a dark side guy right off the bat (which hasn't even been proven), I always thought the whole thing about Palpatine was that he was kind of special...he combined certain traits: ambition, evilness, and manipulation. He's manipulative in that he first tricks everyone into thinking he's just another senator turned chancellor, then he lures Anakin to the dark side (I'm assuming), then much later tries the same on Luke. I always just figured that he's good at manipulation, and he just can't be sensed by Jedi, or anyone else for that matter. No real explanation more than he's just good at what he does...they don't call him the phantom menace for nothing, now, do they? ;)
  6. Disco_Dark_Jeedai Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Actually I am not sure what way to go on this topic. But here are my 2 cents.

    GL and gang have said the they are one in the same, so be it, but remember disinformation is essential in making something a surprise or in creating a twist. Get the people thinking and looking in one direction, then "wham!" hit them with something else. Just remember you have to view this as you don't know the whole story yet. You don't know anything about Emperor Palpatine yet. Sure we all know what happens, but you have to look at the stiry from beginning to end. The first time viewer to SW will not know what we know. After seeing TPM they will draw their own conclusions. Some will see them as one in the same, some will see them as two distinct people and wonder what connection they have, if any. TPM doesn't come out and say that they are the same....it leaves it open to interpretation by the viewer. With that said, why come out and tell the viewer they are the same? It ruins that particular conclusion for the viewer. That would be like saying after ANH that Luke and Leia are twins. Some may have come to that conclusion on their own after ESB or early on in ROTF, but it would ruin the future surprise of announcing that they are Twins. There may be more to it, or maybe not? We shall see.

    Now, if you are to include EU into the mix (and yes, I do know that EU is not Canon! This is just an EXAMPLE of a possibility.), well then "houstros5" has some evidence to support his claim. In the Dark Empire series it states that Emperor Palpatine is indeed a clone, actually one of many clones through the years. Now we all now that EU is not Canon, but would GL have allowed that to be written if he intended for Palpatine and Sidious to be one in the same? I don't know, makes you wonder. However, my personal belief on what GL has intended to do is this: He makes it up as he goes along. He may have had a overall story, but some sub-plots seem added to fill in a story after the fact. Come on Gungans? Jar Jar? Neimodians? Now tell me that those were his original ideas way back when? So in order to make certain sub-plots mesh together better, I believe he would contradict EU material if it fit into the movies better. And that is what he would have to do in order to make the Palpatine/Sidious thing work. But why even mention that Palpatine is a clone in the first place regardless of whether EU is canon or not?

    As for why the Jedi can't sense the darkness in Palpatine if it turns out that he is indeed Sidious also, here is what I think. I hate to do this, but think Lord of the Rings, the ring in particular. The ring by itself, is harmless, but it is known to be a source of great power. Much like the Dark Side. By itself, it is nothing, but it can give great power to someone. Now, when the ring is used, for good or bad, it can be sensed by the Wraiths, but not when it is not being used. The same goes for Palpatine/Sidious. As long as Palpatine doesn't use the Dark Side in the prescence of the Jedi, he should go unnoticed. Did that make sense?

    Like I said, I am not sure where to lean on this matter. I read all the EU material so I do tend to take some of that into account when looking at SW. So, I guess am I the ole fence sitter waiting for something to happen to completely convince me either way. I like surprises. I think GL still has a few up his sleeve. Maybe AOTC will do that, maybe EPIII will, guess we will have to wait and see.

    I just have one more thought...there has been 4 trailers so far, where is Sidious?


  7. rayrayjay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 1
    I just had this thought...Yoda is a clone. No seriously. No one can sense him while he's on Degoba...and distance dosen't mean anything because he watches Luke....(This one a long time have I watched)
    Prove me wrong....SOMEONE PROVE ME WRONG....no one can, because it is fodder! How do we know it isn't Christmas on Coruscant, it's lit up everytime we see it. There is no proof either way...this is speculation that can be made about anything.....ANYTHING IN SW. I may be a clone and don't know it....And Houstros, call my cell and we will talk about this!
  8. General_Lando Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    Judging how the scientific method works and the judicial system works in the world Positive statements can never wholeheartedly be proven only disproven. That's why you are said to be guilty or not guilty and there is never a trial for innocence.
  9. Disco_Dark_Jeedai Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Ok, I just had an idea about this:

    Now that GL and crew have come out and said that they are one in the same, why has GL forbidden anyone to write about Palpatine or Sidious other than Palpatine being a clone?

    Look at the timeline: The OT comes out and GL says you can write about anything except Palpatine (no Sidious yet, because I don't think GL had a character named Sidious back then) and the Clone Wars. Then a comic is published taking place after ROTJ stating that he was a clone. Then TPM comes out and GL says that they are the same contradicting the comic, the ONLY thing written about Palpatine. Now is GL trying to keep us from realizing that he is a clone? That would make sense, since he does like to have twists and surprises.

    From what we saw in TPM or what has been leaked so far about AOTC, any story that would explain Palpatine's orgin or how be became a Sith wouldn't have affected the movies UNLESS you don't want them written because you have something to hide or want a twist.

    Hell, they even made a Clone Emperor action figure:
    [image=http://www.rebelscum.com/potf2/POTF2cloneemperor.jpg]

    Someone asked why Palpatine would use a clone to do his bidding. Well, that is simple, whoever is ultimately pulling the strings (my bet it is Sidious) has been using whoever he could to get what he wants. Look at what he has done already. He plays everyone like a violin, why wouldn't he use a clone to his advantage. Maybe the clone is necessary when he is dealing with the Jedi? If he is all powerful as he claims, maybe the Jedi would sense it, thus he would need someone to stand in his place.



  10. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    Up until a couple of days ago, I would have argued until I was blue in the face that Palpatine=Sidious, no question.

    However, after reading some posts on this board, my mind has been opened to some possibilities.

    Although I haven't officially changed my mind on the issue; until I see otherwise, I still believe the same thing that I beleived on that fateful early-summer day in 1999: that Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same.

    But, I just caught myself thinking about the titles of the two movies, "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones".

    Now, there has been debate, but a lot of people believe that the "Phantom Menace" of the title of EP1 is Sidious.

    The same goes with AOTC. Everyone is assuming that "Attack of the CLones" refers to the clone army (or armies) in the movie. But, consider this: if you subscribe to the "Sidious and Palpatine are clones" theory, then maybe (and this is a BIG maybe), the title "Attack of the Clones" doesn't refer to the clone army, but to SIDIOUS AND PALPATINE!

    Something to think about..... :)
  11. Logansmiddleclaw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 1
    For those of you who still think Palp is not Sidious. Think about the line by Sidious to the Nemodians (sp?)...."I have the senate bogged down in procedure"......How the hell does he do that. Not as himself. But most likely as Senator Palapatine.
  12. Disco_Dark_Jeedai Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Logan.....very simple. At one point Cos (I think that is his first name) Palpatine succumbs to the dark side and becomes Darth Sidious. Now he is Darth Sidious behind the scenes and Palpatine in public playing a double role (not new to SW, look at Padme/Sabe). However, he has to deal with Jedi as he climbs the political ladder. Thus, he makes a clone, since he has the cloning tech, of himself to help keep from the Jedi from discovering his secret. Since he is controlling the clone and everything else, he would then be in position to bog down the Senate either through the clone-portraying Palpatine- in the Senate or as himself in the Senate. Look at Padme/Sabe. At certain times Sabe portrayed the Queen and sometimes Padme does. Now why couldn't a clone portray Palpatine in the Senate and public sometimes and the real Palpatine other times?
  13. opinion Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    ...no offense but this theory is silly...

    ...if this theory were true, then there would be 3 sith lords at any given time...that is against their code...they keep the rule of 2 in order to not have power struggles within their own order...

    ...surely they couldnt control one another, both being very powerful so having both a sidious and palpatine, both being extremely evil and caniving woud be impossible...they would surely get that once they got control of the universe that they would have one sith lord too many...seeing this surely one of them would realize that he could kill the other and keep his sidious palpatine secret...

    ...another thing...many of you look at this as an act on his part...he is not acting as palpatine to gain political power...he is palpatineo..Cos Palpatine is a Sith Lord...
    (not sure if i can get that idea across without sounding like an idiot)

    ...plus you say he could be a clone...but when the other guy said ok well there could also be clones of dooku and whoever...and you say no thats farfetched...???...
  14. Darth_Jungo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    Houstros5- I find your theory very interesting and from what I've read here so far no-one can prove you wrong. They just keep harping on about how they are the same person. Well are'nt 2 clone the same person anyway?

    I'm not saying your theory's true, just that it is very, very possible.

    As for this comment-
    ...plus you say he could be a clone...but when the other guy said ok well there could also be clones of dooku and whoever...and you say no thats farfetched...???...

    LOL! He did'nt say that. What I think he actually ment was- to assume there are clones of everyone just because Palpy is a clone (assuming his theory is true) is totally stupid and naive.

    I think this theory is a credible one and I join houstros5 in challenging anyone to prove it wrong. That's PROVE it wrong not just GL said so or RM said it. You will not find any proof as non exsists. This issue, as far as I'm concerned, is still very much up in the air.
  15. opinion Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    ...i already did...there can not be 3 Sith at the same time...
  16. Disco_Dark_Jeedai Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Opinion.......

    "If this theory were true, then there would be 3 sith lords at any given time...that is against their code...they keep the rule of 2 in order to not have power struggles within their own order"
    You are assuming that clone has something to do with the Sith, he doesn't, he is just a pawn. He doesn't have any Force abilities or Sith power, that is why he is being used. So they are not both Sith Lords. The clone is expendable. So there is not conflict with the rule of two.

    As far as being able to control the clone: If the real Palpatine/Sidious is the only one of the two with Sith power, controlling the clone would be easy. Also, in the cloning process, there may be a way to prevent the clone from having all Palpatine/Sidious' evil desires.

    "another thing...many of you look at this as an act on his part...he is not acting as palpatine to gain political power...he is palpatineo..Cos Palpatine is a Sith Lord"
    I agree, he is not acting as Palpatine to gain power, ALL he is using the clone for, IMO, is for deception. I don't think he feels he can be in the presence of the Jedi without them feeling the Dark Side in him, that is where the Force-less clone comes in. He is a master of deception, wouldn't that be something he would do to gain his ultimate goal? He is willing to do anything! Yes, again, Cos Palpatine IS the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, but the clone has nothing to do the the Sith aspect at all.

    "plus you say he could be a clone...but when the other guy said ok well there could also be clones of dooku and whoever...and you say no thats farfetched...???"
    I never said that was a farfetched idea if that was intended for me. You can only have clones of Dooku and Anakin if you have the cloning tech to do so. Not everyone has it, except Palpatine.

    Why would this ruin Palpatine's character? Palpatine is still Palpatine. The clone is running interference just like Sabe did. Sabe didn't diminish the Queen's role did she? No. She created another TWIST! Hmmmmm, isn't that the whole idea behind using the clone? To become a twist and give us something unexpected? The clone is just designed for certain situations, Palpatine/Sidious is in control.

    My question to you is this: Why would GL authorized a major character, one of whom he has told everyone that they cannot write about, being called a clone?
    Is it possibly to promote these kinds of discussions? ;)

  17. opinion Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    >>>You are assuming that clone has something to do with the Sith, he doesn't, he is just a pawn. He doesn't have any Force abilities or Sith power, that is why he is being used. So they are not both Sith Lords. The clone is expendable. So there is not conflict with the rule of two.
    As far as being able to control the clone: If the real Palpatine/Sidious is the only one of the two with Sith power, controlling the clone would be easy. Also, in the cloning process, there may be a way to prevent the clone from having all Palpatine/Sidious' evil desires.<<< ~Disco


    ...Disco how could a clone of Sidious not be force sensitive?...he would have just as much potential as Sidious has...and there are plenty of scenes where you can see great evil in palpatine's face and tone...

    >>>I never said that was a farfetched idea if that was intended for me. You can only have clones of Dooku and Anakin if you have the cloning tech to do so. Not everyone has it, except Palpatine.<<< ~Disco

    ...nope...Disco surely if Sidious had this technology and wanted to take over the universe wouldnt he create a clone army of his apprentice Darth Maul?...

    >>>My question to you is this: Why would GL authorized a major character, one of whom he has told everyone that they cannot write about, being called a clone?<<< ~Disco

    ...i think the question is Disco...if george lucas wants to put in some big twist about palpatine being a clone, why would he allow them to write about him being a clone in the EU before his big twist comes out?...
    [face_mischief]
  18. DarthJerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 1
    I've been following this thread, off and on.
    First off, I don't think that Palpy will be a clone. No facts to back it up, though.
    But he could be, and I'll comment on some previous comments now.
    People say that Rick McCallum said that Sideous & Palpy were the same person. I do remember RM commenting, but it was more like that they were both Ian McDiarmid. I don't recall him saying that they were one in the same.
    "Always two there are..." these words were not spoken by a sith (not in the Movie) they were only spoken by a Jedi, who thought that the sith had been extinct for 1000 years. Maybe Palpy decided to change the rules. You have to remember that he was the first sith in ages to "go public", and he was also defeated, by his own apprentice. So maybe Palpy was an idiot.
    And finally, would the clone be force sensitive. Maybe, maybe not. Could the midi-chlorians be manipulated during the cloning process? Why not?
    But, I still think that they are one in the same. Sith Lord becomes Senator, who becomes Chancellor, and eventually becomes Emperor.
  19. Disco_Dark_Jeedai Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 4
    Opinion......I too have thought about the question you posed to me. And I agree with you. It wouldn't make sense to say he is a clone if you want it to be a surprise, unless he is proving another theory on mine (see blue below). Like I said from the beginning, I am not sure what way to go, I am just showing that the clone idea shouldn't be easily dismissed because of GL announcing that they are the same. Misinformation boys and girls.

    Since we are using EU material, the fact that Palpatine's clone wouldn't have the Force isn't new. There are other instances where one clone is created and has the Force where another clone from the same DNA does not. So Palpatine's clone necessarily wouldn't have to have it. Remember, this is genetic engineering and GL has described how one has the Force, through Midichlorians, couldn't they be re-engineered at a molecular level?

    Why the hell would he make more Darth Mauls? Didn't he get his ass kicked by Obi Wan even though he had an advantage with the double-sided lightsaber and the more powerful Dark Side of the Force. And besides, that would come in conflict with the rule of two.

    My other theory is this: GL will say and do anything to make his movies better and surprise his audience. Now if that goes and contradicts things he has said or has allowed to be written in the past, he will do it for the good of the movies. IMO, he has a overall storyline but not the sub-plots. If he has to contradict something to make a sub-plot fit, so be it. I am sure he comes up with plots as he goes along and ideas pop into his head, then he has to make them fit. A big example of this is from the ROTJ novelization where it states that Obi Wan and Owen are brothers. We will see something soon on that. Another is Boba Fett. Look at what has been written about Boba Fett. AOTC looks like it will contradict all that.

    So, I am not sure where that leaves us. I am just saying, keep your minds open.



  20. rayrayjay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 1
    No you guys have to remember, Lucas is not making the films for us anymore. They are for kids...little bed wetting children. This whole notion is above their heads...Palpatine may however be farted on by an Eiopee...or ask girls if they are angels.
  21. DarthJerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 1
    RayRay, I hate to say it, but Lucas has always made these films for kids. He's been making toys since day one. We've just grown up. And some of us have outgrown Star Wars.
  22. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Except Palpatine and Sidious both stand on the same balcony of the same apartment. Now that is an Odd Couple.

    "Um, Senator, I thought you just left."

    "Ohhhh, of course not. I was here all the time."

    Meeting an identical clone is just too risky. He could have pulled it off, but Palpatine plays it very smart. That seems too great a risk.

    So add the same apartment with everything else, and it is pretty convincing I think.
  23. DarthScud Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2002
    star 1
    I've also been watching this thread awhile and watched TPM tonight and decided to look for hints about this specific thing.

    I found three thing of interest. First, when Obi-wan and Qui-Gonn show up as on the Nemoidian ship, Nute gunray contacts Siduous and Siduous says something to the effect of "This is an unfortunate turn of events, we must move forward with the invasion." A few minutes later, Palpatine is saying that the Chancellors ambassadors should have arrived and cleared up the conflict. It appears that Palpatine knows about the Jedi but Siduous doesn't, point 1 for Siduous != Palpatine.

    Towards the end of the movie, Siduous says that the attack is too agressive a move for queen Amidala, implying that he knew her well enough to recognize this. Point 1 for Siduous = Palpatine.

    Those are the two biggest hints I saw by their words, but both could be explained away (Palpatine was faking suprise to the Nemoidians / Siduous has carefully studied Amidala)

    Here is the clincher to me. At Qui-Gonn's funeral, Yoda and Mace are talking and they get to the phrase, "Which was it, the master or the apprentice?" and the camera pans over to Palpatine. Cinematically, this indicates that Palpatine is the master and thus Palpatine = Siduous.

    That's basically where I stand, I would love to see a plot twist to the effect of Siduous and Palpatine are not one person but the evidence indicates (but not proves) otherwise.

    After third edit: I must now go and add a line to my signature decalaring myself the typo king.
  24. SithLegion Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2000
    star 2
    I hope we see his origin, and why is he so powerful? Otherwise EU will write his story, and I would rather Lucas do it, in Episode 2 or 3.
  25. Jabachile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2001
    star 4
    What would really be funny is if everytime the JC felt Anakin's "evilness", it was actually just Palpatine standing behind them, and Anakin was good all along.

    But not happening of course... ;)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.