"I Know There Are Things About The Force That They're Not Telling Me"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Yodas_Got_Bed_Head, Mar 10, 2007.

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  1. Yodas_Got_Bed_Head Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2004
    star 2
    This may be a non-topic but it's something that I've picked up on between my 1000-1500th viewing of ROTS. In the "Sidious Revealed" scene, Anakin says this Palpatine a few minutes before Sidious reveals himself. Other than Anakin's desire to keep Padme from dying or "cheating death"; What does he think the Council is keeping from him? I understand the level of 'Master' would allow him access to sensitive information. However, look at the knowledge Qui-Gon attained. It wasn't spoon fed to him by the Council...He took it upon himself to learn and understand something they couldn't fathom.
  2. LordVader66 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    Before we go into some sort of Vader bashing, I think the comment is specific to arcane Sith knowledge.Of course you can learn and grow on your own. I think it's mostly severe paranoia brought about by Palpatine's mind games.
  3. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Agreed. It's just about the abilities Sith have that Jedi don't. It's not that the Jedi aren't necessarily capable of it, it's that they choose not to use them, as some abilities are of the dark side. But Anakin wants that knowledge because Palpy has him convinced it's the only way to save Padme. Also in the EU there is info about the Sith in the Jedi archives that only Masters have access to, Anakin wants to be a Master to get access to it.
  4. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    The secrets of the Darkside use of the force contains many powerful aspects of the force. However, it's not prohibited by the councils teaching. They have a very flat out 'the force' lesson plan, and Anakin has wised up to the fact there are things they just aren't teaching. Like Sidious says, to understand the force you need a more open view, not just the jedi's teachings.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yes, this is correct. The Force is a great power and it is one that carries a price for those who wish to learn every aspect of it's nature. Palpatine wasn't lying when he said that there is a larger view of the Force and it's not limited to the Jedi way. But the price one pays for such power is high and all it will cost you, is your eternal soul. On the other hand, there is more to learn about the Force that will not come at a high price. This is what the Jedi and the Whills know.

    In Anakin's case he is driven by a desire to be the strongest Jedi ever. Palpatine feeds into that desire by buttering him up, telling him that he will surpass even Yoda himself. This just adds fuel to the fire.
  6. Yodas_Got_Bed_Head Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2004
    star 2
    No Vader bashing here, just seeking other ways to view that thought rattling around in my head. In Sinister's post, he reminds me of something I totally overlooked: Anakin's (selfish)desire to become the most powerful Jedi ever; And just like you stated, Palpatine was playing the ultimate mind game on Anakin.
  7. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    That's how I always took it.
  8. sith_rising Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    Anakin knew that the Dark Side was a quick, easy pathway to deeper esoteric knowledge, the kind of knowledge that benefits one's self, rather than Mankind.
  9. Chi_of_Force Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 1
    Since Anakin was pretty much the Force, this makes sense that he'd realize this and consider it a betrayal. Even though he was made by the Force, he only learned of the Force through the Jedi. Palps open his eyes to the big idea that the Force goes far beyond just the Jedi, and as the Chosen One (Tangent: Why would you let the Chosen One know they were the Chosen One? Wouldn't that really ruin everything?) of the Force, isn't Anakin entitled -- nay, obligated -- to know all of the Force, not just the slice the Jeid focus on?
  10. Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I wouldn't say Anakin really cared for power until his little dream about Padme dying. Despite what he said about becoming the most powerful Jedi ever, it seems that by the time ROTS rolled around he had more than gotten over it.
  11. JMJacenSolo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2006
    star 4
    That line got some sniggers in my midnight showing of ROTS
  12. Obi-Chron Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    The dark side does allow one to do things "many consider to be unnatural." That hint, a classic teaser of a statement spins in Anakin's mind. Here, in the Opera, he is hearing things that he wants, he needs to hear -- and only that. He replies in bebuttal with rote quotes from his training, without fully thinking through what Palpatine is saying and questioning his train of logic.

    Why are some things the Sith do considered "unnatural?" Not natural, or "unnatural' has a wide area of possible interpretation, but it is usually understood in the sense of wrong, immoral or unpleasant. Were the dark side superior in some specific way it would arguably be supernatural.

    So the things the Jedi do not tell Anakin about the force are the things that inquisitive Padawans should not know. As Dooku proves, it is even risky for seasoned Jedi to fully fully, deeply contemplate certain aspects of the dark side.

    Merely experimenting with or meditating upon the dark side can be alluring, intoxicating and captivating. As one examines the nature of the dark side, it imprisons one's soul through a precipitous path lined with excuses suported by self-righteous justification.
  13. Yodas_Got_Bed_Head Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2004
    star 2

    Excellent points. I think the LOE novel touched on Dooku's fascination with the Sith/Darkside as a Padawan. If I recall correctly, he sought & studied as much info as he could find.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    On a side note, I like the thick little pause between Anakin saying this and Palpatine replying. It's like Okay, here we go.
  15. OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    I think that it is extremely pertinent that this comment to Palpatine follows Anakin's having been told by Obi-Wan, just previously:

    everything I know."

    -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS, 2005
    />

    Anakin doesn't believe Obi-Wan.


    -JR :)/>/>
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He cared long before then. Anakin was interested in being all powerful way back in AOTC. Listen to his conversations with Obi-wan and Padme. What fueled his desire to become powerful is when Shmi died and he failed to save her. On her grave, he said that he wasn't strong enough. It was a double meaning. 1. He was not strong enough to save her from dying. 2. He was not strong enough to avoid killing in retaliation of her death. As Lucas pointed out, Anakin's quest for power began then and there. It just intensified when he had the vision of Padme dying, because it was deja vu all over again.
  17. ROTSFan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2006
    star 4

    I'm not sure that Anakin doesn't believe Obi-Wan; perhaps he just thinks that he has surpassed Obi-Wan (as he has taught him all he knows) and is ready to move onto bigger things.

    I think Anakin's turning to the darkside was threefold:

    Some arrogance and the need for an adrenaline rush-the Jedi did nothing but harness his power (or attempt to) and I'm sure this was a good thing, but he had too much potential to be controlled. And he knew it.

    His distrust of the Jedi/Palpatine-The Jedi kind of acted like an arrogant clique and never really wanted to let him in in the first place. We all know the only reason they did was because Qui-Gon (the one who fully accepted Anakin) make that dying promise that he would be trained. So Anakin was kind of treated like crap and set up as an outsider from the beginning. And of course Palpatine played on this until Anakin was too emotionally invested to do anything but follow him.

    Love-Of course, his love for his mother and his failure to save her (due in part because of the Jedi and their jurisdiction issues) sparked his desire to discover those powers to help those he loved and control his destiny. Then I think he turned all the grief and insecurities he had with his job and with losing his mother to Padme-she became not only his wife but mother/lover/friend. I think there came a point where Anakin was pulled in so many different directions that he was literally willing to jump ship and just do whatever it took to save and keep Padme.

    And we all know how that turned out :_| />/>
  18. OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6

    Hmmm.

    See, I find it interesting that after Obi-Wan tells Anakin this, and after they say their farewells, the expression on Anakin's face changes to a troubled one.

    In the next scene that we see Anakin, he says this to Padme:

    Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust me. [...] Something's happening . . . I'm not the Jedi I should be. "

    -- Anakin Skywalker, ROTS, 2005
    />

    Then he gets the order to go see Palpatine, whereupon he makes his comment about not be told everything about the Force by the Jedi....


    -JR :)


    />/>/>/>
  19. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin is right.

    There are things about the Force that the Jedi didn't tell him and the Dark Side happens to be that very thing. The Jedi didn't give any kind of warning to Anakin about the nature of the Dark Side and what effects it can do to him should he succumb to it. That's why Anakin didn't care when he found out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord nor did he care to piece together that Palps had 2 apprentices: one being Count Dooku, the man who chopped off Anakin's arm and the other being the attacker(Darth Maul) who killed Qui-Gon Jinn...the man who freed Anakin from slavery.

    Palpatine has Anakin hooked, lined, and sinkered for so long that Anakin will believe anything Palps says. The Jedi realized this mistake which is why they relied on the Darth Vader image and the Dark Side cave to give Luke an understanding of what the Dark Side is all about.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Wait, what makes you think that Obi-wan didn't warn him of the dark side? Just because you are warned about something doesn't mean that you heed that warning. We're told that smoking is bad for your health, but people still light up. People are told that eating fast food and junk food is unhealty, yet we still pig out on it. We're told that drinking and driving is bad, but it happens. So on and so forth. If you're not willing to heed the warnings of others, then there is little else that can be done for you. Short of tying you up and trying to beat some sense into you. Which doesn't really work.

    More than likely Anakin was warned about the dark side, which comes through when he expresses remorse for killing the Tuskens. And when he talks to Palpatine about the Jedi way. I really doubt that Obi-wan would overlook something like that, when it is a central part of a Jedi's training. Anakin did care when Palpatine revealed himself. He ignited his saber and was going to kill him.

    PALPATINE: "Are you going to kill me?"

    ANAKIN: "I would certainly like to."

    PALPATINE: "I know you would. I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger."

    He knew that he was involved with both Maul and Dooku. With trying to kill Padme. Everything. But what stopped him was his desire to save Padme. It comes back to Faust. To making a deal with the devil himself, to get what you want.

    PALPATINE: "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."
  21. Durwood Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I think at that point in the story, Anakin was more looking for excuses to seek Palpatine's instruction than he was for legitimate complaints against the Jedi council. He obviously sensed that Palpatine could teach him more than the Jedi would be willing to. The key is in the exchange at the opera house:

    Anakin: Is it possible to learn these powers?
    Palpatine: Not from a Jedi.
  22. ROTSFan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2006
    star 4
    btw, we know that the desire to save Padme (as per bad dreams) was Anakin's downfall and a self-fulfilling prophecy. But my husband believes that Palpatine was "sending" those dreams of Padme dying to Anakin to screw with him and further cement his service to the dark side. How does everyone feel about this? Agree/disagree/maybe?
  23. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I think it's unclear and while I don't agree I think it's certainly a possible scenario that Palpatine was sending them. I think that they were visions from the Force that Anakin misinterpreted the reason for.
  24. JMJacenSolo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2006
    star 4
    That had been my impression since the first time I saw the movie. However, one piece of evidence against this theory is the fact that Obi-Wan appeared in the second dream, as he eventually did in reality. Palpatine likely couldn't have forseen that. But it's still a plausible theor, because in the novel there was a subplot where Palpatine hints to Anakin that Obi-Wan and Padme are lovers. So in that context, it would make sense for him to include Obi-Wan in the nightmares to help foster Anakin's jealousy and fear of losing her.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Anakin's visions were a result of the bad things that he had done. The fear that he had that the Jedi would learn of his crimes and punish him. And an even greater fear was that he would lose Padme. Also, he wanted to be all powerful and the Force was showing him the consequences of his actions, should he continue down this path.
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