Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Yodas_Got_Bed_Head, Mar 10, 2007.
But it wasn't that bad, exactly. Anakin wasn't looked at constantly as an outsider. Palpatine twisted Anakin's mind to make it seem like that. The Jedi counted on Anakin like no other in the Clone Wars. But when you have the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, a Clone Wars hero himself, with his credibility constanting whispering in your ear that the Jedi don't appeciate your talents or the don't trust you to, your going to start buying into it. By doing this Anakin is able to place his failures and flaws on others. Instead seeing himself as implusive or arrogant, as the reasons he is not yet a Master, it's because the Jedi are jealous of his power. It's human nature. If I had the President of the US telling me everyday that I'm the man, I'm going to start believing that. Because it's want I want to hear. I don't want someone to point out flaws, I want to hear how great I am. So if Anakin had been trained as a youngling, would he have been able to defeat his own nature? I don't know. As Yoda says in AotC, he sees more and more arrogant Jedi. It's a symptom of the Order, it seems. So really, when Obiwan is training Anakin and he says, Anakin you need to work on this and that, and your very unpredictable, of course this presents an oppertunity for Palpatine to work his magic. He can easily twist that and say something to the effect of 'being unpredictable is underated, it keeps your enemies guessing'. Then Anakin sits back and believes he is doing a great job. Palpatine just told Anakin want he wanted to hear, a justification for any of his unbecoming behaviors. And Anakin knew he'd never get that from any Jedi. So it became a vicious circle. The more critical the Jedi were, the more he sought out Palpatine. The closer he got to Palpatine, the more distrustal and critical the Jedi became. But Anakin was never an outsider in the Jedi Order.
Again, I don't buy that. Anakin was included in everything important during the events of RotS by the Jedi. Rescuing the Chancellor. The hunt for Darth Sidious. He was right in the middle of everything. As for the distrust issue, I believe it was justified. Anakin and Palpatine had a long friendship and were quite close. But instead, Palpatine twists it and he centers on the Jedi not believing Anakin is ready to defeat General Grevious.
Title of another thread: 'The Jedi were corrupted.' And we see it there. The Jedi are arrogant. They believe that no matter what, Anakin will remain loyal, even when their feelings tell them otherwise.
Not sure what you mean by this. Is this in reference to the RotS novel?
Yes, it was part of the ROTs novelization, and a smaller part in the movie. Remember when Anakin was in Padme's apartment and found Obi-Wan's datapad there? Then he became angry and said, "What was he doing here?" He's beginning to suspect (with Palpatine's influence) that Padme and Obi-Wan are having an affair when what really is happening is Obi-Wan coming to Padme privately to share his concerns about Anakin. He really should have just left Padme out of it and shared it directly with Anakin, like a counselor/mentor. This pretty much left them all in a bad position when Obi-Wan stepped off Padme's craft on Mustafar-Anakin jumped to the worst of all conclusions.
I still think the Jedi half-***** their acceptance of Anakin and didn't give him a fair shake.
Obi-wan turned to Padme, because as he told her, she had made him happy. And though he wasn't certain if it would help, it was best to see if she could reach him in a way that he could not. Obi-wan knows that Anakin hasn't been as open and honest as he should've been. That's why he felt it best that Padme be the one to deal with Anakin, since she was someone he could be honest with.
The Jedi did trust Anakin after he was made a Padawan. It was his actions in the Council chambers, that changed things.
I don't know....if they trusted him, why didn't they make him a Master in the first place? It's like saying, "here's more responsibility, but no additional rank". Kind of a roundabout insult.
Because it was blatantly obvious that Anakin had yet to Master himself. His reaction in the Council was a proof of this.
True. Humility wasn't one of his strong traits. I'm sure if they would have denied someone more laid back like Obi-Wan the rank of Master he would have been like, "Ok, whatever."
Come to think of it though I do remember someone saying that he was so upset about not getting Master because Masters had access to certain files Knights didn't and he wanted to access those to learn power to save Padme.
That is in the book. For someone like me who pretty much only cares about what is in the films, I don't put much stock in that particular idea.
In the novelisation of Revenge of the Sith, Anakin gets the idea that within the archives their are secrets that could tell him how to save Padme. I guess Stover added that to give more depth to his reaction and urge to become a master. It wasn't used in the films however. I think Lucas stuck with the idea that Anakin was simply hungry for power and had too much pride in himself - hence the reaction.
Anakin wants to be more powerful than any other Jedi. He wants a seat on the Council and to be a Master. "I want more, and I know I shouldn't." Then Palpatine tells him about Darth Plagueis's midi-chlorian influence and Dark Side Force powers. "Is it possible to learn this power? Not from a Jedi." The thing about the Force that the Jedi aren't telling Anakin is Dark Side Force powers. He wants Palpatine to teach him how to save Padme, something the Jedi could never do.
True. Shame he didn't realise that Palpatine and bull******* him.
You'd have thought when Palpatine immediately says "Oh, actually I don't know that power, but really, we'll figure it out! Don't worry about it!" Anakin might have said "Uh...what?!?"
Ah, but this was where Sidious was cunning.
He never told Anakin that he was the apprentice that killed Plagueis. He never actually said that he knew the power. He just said that only a Sith can achieve the ability.
So later when he reveals his Sith ways to Anakin he is making out that only he can teach Anakin about the Dark Side and "together they can discover the secret".
I always get quoted.
There was trust, once upon a time. But with Palpatine's manuvering and the fact that it is well known that Anakin they're very good friends, it seems as if the two of them are using the other. Palpatine is using Anakin to increase his control over the Council, while it seems as if Anakin is currying Palpatine's favor to advance up in rank. That kind of thing is something the Jedi frown upon and is why he is not made a Master. Anakin, in the novelization, tries to justify his reasons to himself as being for Padme. But in reality, it's because he wants more power.
"But it's what you wanted...your relationship with Chancellor Palpatine seems to have paid off". - Obi Wan.
It may have been in part because he wanted more power, but it wasn't the only reason. It's pretty clear from the movies (and George Lucas' design) that he fell for love. What kind of love (be it possessive or selfless) is vague, but it is clear that he was in deep for Padme and desperate to help her, per the rumination scene where they both look out the window, etc.
And Sidious was probably full of it at the time when he said the Dark Side could save Padme. I don't think any Sith in existance could stop death from occuring. They may have been able to absorb/heal injuries and certainly increase their strength in battle, but I think he was feeding him a line when he said he could "save" Padme. Sidious probably said that because he knew no other leverage would have a great enough impact to bring Anakin to him.
It was selfish love that damns Anakin. He thinks only of himself once he has his vision of her death. Even when Padme tells him that she won't die and that he doesn't have to be all powerful, he dismisses her.
Perhaps. No one's denying that Anakin had some growing to do. Or really even that in the tragedy that was his entire life he was an instrument of the Force. He walked through the dark side all of those years, realizing just what he gave up, and I believe in the end he did learn how to love selflessly for his son Luke.
But here's the thing. Palpatine implies the Jedi don't have the knowledge of the DS powers he alludes to. What does Anakin think the Jedi know about but aren't telling him?
Certainly they all know about the lightning ( AOTC ).
Doesn't he say "I have the power to save the one you love" while he's trying to get Anakin to protect him from Mace?
He's referring to the Dark Side there. He is the last Sith. He is the only one around with knowledge of the Dark Side and how to use it fully. Through this, Anakin can learn how to cheat death. Thats the promise - Sidious is saying that only a Sith, only through the Dark Sidem can you save Padme. But he never said that he had the secret to cheating death himself.
To put it simply I think Sidious was lying to Anakin about that, if he didn't Anakin very well may have stepped back and allowed Mace to finish him.
And btw in the Dark Lord novelization (which happens immediately after ROTs) Sidious is thinking to himself how well it worked out that Padme died, because Sidious didn't want her around and really didn't want her/Anakin's children around either (thus dividing Vader's loyalties).
I suppose, though I think the simpler answer that Palpatine was simply lying works just as well given his nature as manipulater.
But Obi-wan is too busy with all the "You will learn your place, young one" and "Don't do anything without consulting with myself or the council" garbage throughout that time while Anakin is being a disobedient brat which is indicated when Obi-wan told him, "We will not go through this exercise again" so I doubt he had enough time to teach Anakin about avoiding the Dark Side.
I thought it was because PalpSidious spent years manipulating Anakin into ignoring everything Obi-wan has taught him so he was too damaged to listen to anyone.